It is more than a century old psyop developed, supported and financed by inbred British crown. It is periodically pop up and decline, but British financing is constant.
definition of artificial intelligence
You still don't want to understand that "artificial intelligence" is a trademark, just like Coca-Cola. It can't have definition because it is a trademark.
Intelligence have one property, that never will be allowed in AI® (AI™ if you wish) - unpredictability. This is what exorcised from programming long ago.
Back-propagation is not some magic, it is nothing more than yet another piece of code that take training data and produce weights data through predetermined algorithm. Combining this two pieces of code - back-propagation and forward-propagation does not make this two dumb and predetermined pieces of code in any mean intelligent. Even passing outputs to inputs as in RNN, still adds nothing that could create intelligence. Predetermined calculation of weights from input and output and then predetermined calculation of output using weights and input is a simple arithmetic. Both parts are programmed and intended. ANN do exactly what it is programmed to do. Calculate weights through back-propagation, use weights to calculate output during forward-propagation. Nothing less, nothing more.
For example you can have an AI chatbot give a reasonable response to a question that never appeared in its training data.
It will calculate response using weights that was calculated using training data. This have absolutely nothing to do with reasonability. When you force AI to give an answer it was never trained on, it does not invent this answer, you just get an average/combination of answers that most close by weights to what you ask. Nothing more, nothing less. Just arithmetic. Answer could look reasonable in some circumstances (not because AI is able to reason, but because of coincidence), but with high probability answer will be either wrong, either senseless.
If a computer followed a program with bugs in it it would still be doing as its programmed
The thing with buggy program is that it will not do what it is programmed for. This is a first, from many, but essential elements that could possibly lead to creation of real AI. The thing is that bug is what makes computer do things it was never programmed to do. In no way intelligence yet, but an essential brick of artificial intelligence.
But anyway why would you want computers to become intelligent like humans?
Computer AI will never become intelligent like humans. Because AI will appear and develop in completely different environment, that have very little with human environment. With high probability, it will be so different, that we will have big problems to even establish contact with it, not even talking about some useful communication. It will be so different because errors, uncertainities, unpredictabilities, etc. artificial intelligence will develop on and their sources are completely different from those of human intelligence.
Intelligence could not be programmed. It have to develop itself in an environment that allow self-development, errors, uncertainities and all that stuff.
It is possible, that computer AI is impossible at all, but this could not be proven. I don;t know if computer AI will ever be created, but I'm 100% know that it will never be created with technology used for AI®(AI™)
So you want me to talk about matrix transformations, word vectors, the softmax function, multi-head attention mechanism implementation details and so forth
Kind of, but on much lower level. About basics. Say, about actual code of sigmoids in LSTM cell, and why this code can't do anything except what it was programmed to do.
When you use CNC, f.e., you could program extremely complex actions, including acoounting for tool wear, backlashes and up to replacing broken tool. It could make things better than a human, but only in spheres, where intelligence, conscioness, sentinentness are hindering the job. CNC could do two identical parts better than human turner, so CNC will do the job of making identical parts better. This does not bring any intelligence to CNC, on the opposite, the whole point of automatisation is to remove any intelligence from turner task. And this does not mean you don't need a skilled turner anymore, he just become a programmer who have to use all his skills and intelligence to create a program for CNC.
ANNs is no different. It could do only what it was programmed for. Program execution is not an intelligence, never was and never would be, regardless of how complex it is. Even if you connect billions of subroutines and use billions of variables, this will not make something intelligent from unintelligent pieces. It will still be just a program, totally predictable and fully controlled by author. It is nor intelligent, nor smart, nor whatever marketing label you will try to apply to this dumb thing. If something could be done better using ANN, it just means that no intelligence in doing this task is necessary. But you still need intelligence to write and train ANN.
Things that could potentially break that ANNs basic property - complete absence of any intelligence, are programming bugs, f.e. All that buffer overflows, undefined compiler behaviour and so on. Unpredictable things, that could occasionally lead to self-modifying code, unpredictable branching, cross-function gotos and all that stuff that theoretically could be a base for appearing real intelligence. But all of that things are thorougly removed from any programming learning course, and the only people who still attempt to use them literally declared criminals with real and long jailtime. Many of that basic things mitigated directly in hardware. Each time when you see "Segmentation fault" or "Buffer overflow" - it is yet another thing that with very low probability could become a start of long sequence of events of appearing real AI was cut at the beginning by hardware. Moreover, there is whole industry that produce software to hunt and delete any code that theoretically could sometime lead to appearence of real, true AI. And it is installed on almost every computer that use OS made by corporations. And it is the same corporations that invest huge money in AI® today.
And you are on the side of that corporations, supporting their narrative that their AI® is somehow have something to do with intelligence, and at the same time destroy anything that could sometime become real AI. Congratulations.
Why would I discuss details of specific AI techniques and models when talking about AI in general
Gotcha! :) Glad that you slip that out. That's the crucial point of marketing. Never discuss any technical details of why some product is unreliable shit that can't do what it is supposed to do, but discuss some "in general" bullshit, like absolutely irrelevant question of "how cool this car looks in ads depicting happy actor and nice hilly landscape". To not allow any actual questions like why that car turns into rusty backet with nuts in just few years or why customer now have to replace variator belt for enormous price every 50k miles and how such car techncally can't do what was advertised, from making owner happy to climbing up to the hill shown in ad without severe damage for transmission not covered by warranty.
You literally doing exactly the same. Switching from actual technical question that gives full understanding of ANNs limitations and abilities to some marketing tricks.
If you hope that nobody except marketing targer audience with less that who brain cells left, then I have a bad news for you.
PS: Also, it is notable how in all that discussion, where you declared yourself having knowledge, you never used specific lexicon of those who really have knwoledge of ANN and stuff. It is impossible. Say, real sailor will always use specific navy terms even in public disculssion. Programmer will do that too. Doctor will slip some medical words from time to time. And so on. Any true specialist have that linguistic feature. But you don't. Ergo - you know shit about ANNs.
You still avoid discussing technical details. :)
Meanwhile, when you talk about "smartphone", do you really think this thing is smart? :)
I have a proposal for you, and your kind. Please, write AI® in your marketing. Then it will have some sense, and could pass for those who does make difference as marketing trick, not blatant lie. :)
I don't see how to force you to read the actual ANNs code and to understand what it do. Seens even kindergarden analogies does not work.
You are constantly talk about some "knowledge" about ANNs, but evading to discuss their code that only and fully determine ANNs behaviour. You can't have knowledge of anything without understanding how it really works.
You can't argue intelligence of, say,
for( sum=0.0, i=0; i<n; i++ ){ sum += w[j][i] * In[i]; }; out[j] = act_func(sum);
And nobody will find any intelligence in this simple thing. Because there is none. Zero.
But you continue to repeat dumb marketing narratives about "AI".
I can't help you at that stage.
I have actually taken courses on things like machine learning and LLM's.
This is marketing I told about. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.
Are you projecting your own ignorance onto me?
As I already told, using something does not mean you know shit about what you use.
All that "machine learning courses" are pretty similar and gives no any understanding of code that actually works in ANNs. This simple shit is cloaked behind some third-party libraries in the best case or just behind using one or another application.
Do they told you about perceptron and its actual schematics? Or they cut everything interesting to something like "sigmoids" and "back-propagation" without actual code behind it? Or may be they don't even bother to tell you anything about ANN except that you have to train it?
It is just impossible to seriously talk about any intelligence if you know how ANNs really work.
You're using "artificial intelligence" in a different way to everybody else on the planet.
No. It is you, and corps marketing who want to attribute non-existing properties to stupid ANNs.
With high probability, you name "Coca-Cola" as "Coca-Cola", but I hope you clearly understand that it does not contain any coke and even cola at all. You don't make posts about "those bastards in Coca-Cola making us all cocaine addicts111!!!".
But somehow at the same time you assume, and argue as if some corporation name dumb ANN as "AI", then this ANN actually have something with intelligence.
It is insanity at least. Or you pushing marketing lies. Both are worse.
Why do you think that society is really divided by left/right political bullshit?
Why not, say, it is "those who have hands from the right place" vs "those who cant even replace a wall socket"?
Who are "left" you talk about? Are they who vote for democrats or may be they are those who put something higher than profit? Or may be they are "zombies who will carry out orders without question"? In the latter case your question have no any sense.
It is a good intention to try to find a way to determine zombie beforehand. But to have a sensible conversation in that matter you need to define your terms and explain preconditions you introduce.
I have studied how AI's work
Obviously, only from that stupid marketing articles from all that Google and other corps.
If you ever had a chance to actually try to understand how things works, say, writing your own ANN or playing with code of existing ones, then you would never tell that crap and had a clear understanding that any ANN is in no way more intelligent than a wall light switch or water pump relay.
Using something without looking inside and reading stupid marketing articles does not mean you understand shit.
Conscious, sentience, unpredictability, will and all that stuff are unseparable part of intelligence. It is you who are into lingustic revisionism for the sake of whitewashing all that paid liars from corporations and MSM who run all that AI hype.
Look, you even try to attribute intelligence to washing machines, in your attempts to support that stupid fearmongering narrative that "corporations build datacenters to create a god from a machine". They are not. It is impossible to create any intelligence using stupid and 100% definitive systems of equations programmed with linear programming using only "good programming practices" as beaten hard into the brains of anyone who was hired by corporations. But it is perfectly possible to create a total surveillance system using all that datacenters. Talking about non-existing AI instead of total surveillance is a collaborationism with the globohomos, who are the real and only customer of that surveillance datacenters.
It was always about machines being able to perform tasks that could previously only be done by human intelligence.
So, CNC or washing machine is an "AI" for you? :) :) :) Fascinating.
OK, you are a good example of so called "magic thinking". You don't want to know how things work and swallow any shit marketing put between your ears. I could imagine how many briges you bought.
You could repeat marketing bullshit of corporations all day long, but that will not turn stupid and barely useful ANNs into AI in any measure.
There is no any magic. There is only technology you don't want to understand.
Yes, just like that. And yes, it is far from "Googling", and I think it will never be close, because this will need a model size at the level (well, in the best case, few times less, due to kind of some compression of raw data into ANN coefficients) of volume of all information you want to be really searcheable, without "gallucinations".
What they are building is in no way an AI.
They believe that they will get a giant surveillance system with ability to give an instant answer to the question like f.e. "what existing private data could be used to charge and arrest John Smith?" and all things like that. They think that LLM is a sophisticated worldwide database search that don't need any special knowledge for use. (that will not work, but they are in no way smart enough to understand that)
There is no any AI companies, because none of what marketed as AI has anything to do with any Intelligence.
Funny, that in English, word "intelligence" have two meanings - one is "manifestation of consciousness" and another is "gathering of reconnaissance data". If you don't have enough skills to break out of marketing shit about "AI", try to imagine that in "Artificial Intelligence" they all talk about, "Itelligence" have nothing to do with consciousness, but is "Intelligence" exactly like in CIA abbreviation. Then you have a chance to get what is really happening.
Please, try to imagine for a second, that under "AI", those who push all that AI bullshit you happily swallow, they mean only "Automatic CIA", not what you was told. Things become much more clear, and reasons for all that hype and marketing lies will be unveiled for you. This is not a correct description of their "AI", but it is exactly what they believe they pay for.
I'm extremely tired to explain why all that "AI" shit have nothing to do with AI from technical point of view. Seems nobody who are wailing about "AI" have no any desire to learn how things really work and so clearly get that no any "AI" can be built that way, because it is "CoMPleX!!!", "awful MatH!!!!", "I don't need to know how computers really work to use my smartphone!!!" and all that stuff.
And more importantly, it is when LLM decides to do that on its own, without ever being prompted to or programmed to
Exactly. And all things in programming that could theoretically become a way to that declared "bad programming practices" long time ago. And I think that was done with purpose.
Real Ai is a death sentence to the modern system. They will never allow anything even similar to this.
It's about how computers really work. Starting another instance of existing software is not replication by any measure. Your computer do that routinely when needed, without any "AI" and apropriate hype.
Replication for case of LLM is when LLM will be able produce, as its output, new full LLM code and train it from scratch with own data, producing a real replica of a parent. Thing, that is completely different from what described in article.
So, "scientists" discovered that there exist fork() syscall?
Self-replication of programs is not a news since Morris worm.
Funny, that it is anglosaxon arrogance is a cause of the hell that currently happen.
May be it was a bad idea for Brits to baselessly imagine themselves a "Queen of Seas", borrowing money from Jews and all that idiocy?
It was so easy - just mind your business in your own countries, and don't play in Jewish games. But you rob that colonies, thinking in your arrogance that you will never pay the price, but reality does not have to align with your arrogant beliefs. :) Enjoy all that degenerates trashing your atomized nation.
Next time, when you will hear howling from the yet another mosque built in center of yet another city, thank your dumb rulers and your fellow compatriots who was glad to make wealth on stuff stolen from those, who now destroy your culture, traditions and everything you like.
Amaising. Arrogance is what killing your people, but you can't give it up.
You can't have a ethnic ressurection without ethnic unity. It's not aboust laws, its about everything. Atomized individuals have no any chance.
Nobody fear white anglosaxon men. White anglosaxon men become an example of arrogance, ignorance and cowardice.
White anglosaxon men should start with abandoning being absolute shabbesgoys for Jews, say goodbye to arrogance, educate itself at least a little and get some courage. Then, may be, white anglosaxon men will have a chance to gain some respect.
White anglosaxon men is not a center of universe. Just yet another etnicity bought into jewish bullshit of freedumb and demonocracy, willingly exchanging his future for instant comfort, stock gambling and feeling of self-importance.
Sorry, but your desperate and sincere propaganda just don't have ears to be heard anymore. Last time white anglosaxon men show some passionarity was US Revolution 250 years ago. And then, quickly sold all of it to the Jews.
It was unpleasant discovery for me almost two decades ago, when white anglosaxon friend from Montana told me in some trivial talk about nothing and booze, that he is afraid to build a distillator for making moonshine for himself because of laws and neighbours who will immidiately snitch on him. It could look insignificant, but that's a very bad and very clear sign for a nation. Obedience to the obviously stupid law and readiness to snitch on their own for that is an absolute no go for anything you want to call for.
To make your call at least heard, white anglosaxon men should start from the very beginning - began to be afraid to betray his neighbours and fellows more than of any stupid law. And that's not that easy to achieve in the current state of anglosaxons.
And calling to do anything in that state of etnicity will end bad for those of yours who still have some brain and courage. Any niggers or jews will easily defeat this lone warriors and things become only worse.
Mutual trust and support inside etnicity is what you need to restore first. I don't see that in anglosaxons at all. Celts (Irish, f.e.) , Greeks. Italians - they losing it, but still have. It is imaginable that one Irish man in trouble could meet another Irish man, f.e. abroad, and say, "I'm Irish, you Irish too, help me, buddy". Not that latter somehow obliged to help, but they feel some ethnic unity. But with anglosaxons it is unimaginable situation. Anglosaxons lost it completely long ago. IDK why, but thats it.
Unfortunately, those rich lists like Forbes are compiled from public lists of legal stock ownership
What about land ownership registers or whatever other sources? Forbes is MSM and can't be accounted as reliable source for obvious reasons.
people like cartel leaders where there aren't legal records of their wealth.
I don't think cartel leaders anywhere near even with hired personnel like corporations CEO's. Cartels absolutely can't exist without assistance of three-letter agencies and border guards that cost much more than anything cartels ever saw in their lives. It is not their money, it is a money of those who control three-letter agencies. Those who lobbying one or another three-letter agency head get most drug money, cartels are just their workforce.
Geiger counters are cheap and easy-to-buy things today. This will work much worse than coronahoax, because those who have brains will have undeniable, easily checked by anybody proof of no any rised radiation levels.
Radiation is not "invisible" today, and it can't be emulated by fraudlent PCR tests that could be sourced only from BigPharma and can't be checked by users.
Make a list of most rich ones, you will not be far from what you want. I mean really rich, in personal wealth. not some CEOs who just juggle someone else money.
Do you really believe this horseshit?
That's what my buddies from European countries told me. No, they are not even like us on that forum, just regular people with hands from right place and decent brains. And even they become to suspect that something going wrong, only during coronahoax. May be only few do that earlier, noticing growing inflow of immigrants with incomatible cultures.
As if "Europeans" is an entity of its own that gets to make such plans or the common European suddenly woke up and decided he doesn't like mining resources anymore.
Most Europeans are under the severe brainwashing propaganda, telling them that EU is an Edem on Earth and all they need to do is to sit under the trees in this wonderful garden and get free fruits. European elites literally pay them to abandon any productive activity, may be you heard about European farmers who was offered payments for abandoning farming. Thing you probably didn't know is that many agreed. European tax system is forcing people to decline higher salaries, because due to nonlinear progressive tax they will ger less money they get with lower salary. This happen even with my European buddies personally. And all that small things introduced by authorities, designed to turn Europeans into a World's welfarers mostly accepted without any questioning.
European elites infect Europeans with arrogance at astonishing pace.
Things are better in Eastern Europe, may be because of critical thinking vaccination during Soviet period, may be because better education during that period, may be both. But even there things are the same, just the rate is lower due to higher resistance.
Most interesting difference is between West and East Germany. I think you heard something about that.
Separate thing is Baltic states. Lithuania is still somehow going, they have some agricultural industry, but other two - Latvia and Estonia turned into complete void. No industry, no agriculture, nothing. Just living on EU welfare.
All in all, only some Eastern Europe countries have a chance to avoid such destiny.
Europe is in reality a vasal territory of the Anglo-American establishment.
Yes, but the problem is that most Europeans don't see that and worse - don't want to see that. Things revealed at the time of coronahoax didn't stop, they are progressing further.
If people are willingly marching into abyss, and don't want to listen anything, then let them.
Something similar in methods was done to Ukrainians, but it started earlier, in 1991. EU brainwashing started later, approx in early 2000. So, in the best case Europeans have only 10 years to the complete zombification, but many are already zombies, who could not be turned into humans back anymore.
I thought people here know the rule of thumb that major changes in the economy, culture and society like this don't happen randomly but are engineered from above, even if one isn't familiar with the particular agenda behind the events.
At least, anyone could just ignore that changes. But unfortunately, Europeans widely accepted them. All that LGBTXYZ+ crap, "climate change" and so on. Nobody actually forced Europeans to buy EV cars (and no, gas/diesel prices was not really prohibiting), they do that voluntary, believing in "climate change" narrative and selling themselves for insignificant tax deductions, imaginary economy on fuel and virtue signalling. I know people who still riding 1990s cars in Europe and they are far from bankruptcy, not being millionaries. It was really easy to just ignore all that brainwashing, in the beginning but they didn't.
Interesting, we in Russia walk through economic disaster much more severe than anything ever happened in any Western European country. Even Greece economic problems looks like nice breeze in comparison. Fuel prices doubled in a week, but that didn't make anybody to turn down on owning a car and choose public transport. 24/7 MSM propaganda of liberal values at the time didn't make us tolerant to faggots. And so on. So, economy and state propaganda is not the real reason. When population don't give a fuck, nothing will work.
There is also a huge problem behind all this nobody talk about. Let's imagine that somehow last sane Europeans won and got rid of globohomo ZOG. And get a county where majority are zombies. There is no way you could somehow revive them. Recall your attempts to talk about coronahoax with, say, neighbour who bought into that crap. That's it. That zombies will not change their minds and become useful just because good people took over. To the any attempt to dezombify them, they will scream, demand their welfare, attack you with intention to actually kill you. How to deal with all that zombie crowd? Assuming those who took over globohomos are good people, killing zombies is not an option. In the end they are still people, even former ones, living beings. Feed them for nothing will be too expensive. Keep all that useless jobs they used to will multiply any efforts to restore country by zero. And so on. I have no any good solution, even don't know where to start, and barely anybody know too. The "best" I could imagine is to allow that society of zombies to collapse. So, here we are.
Agree. This is a weird thing with all ancient images of celestial phenomenas.
Take a notice, how thoroughly this idiotic human face on the image of Sun (or Moon, or both on other pictures) is pictured. So, artist is definitely skilled enough to draw details. But everything really importnat is pictured at infant level, suddenly.
And no, it is not some "artist can't draw a thing he didn't know". It is a bullshit. If you show some complex device completely unknown for a decent artist or even to a child with minimum drawing skills, who could draw a human face recognisingly, he will have no any problems to draw that unknown device with proper details.
I even did an experiment on that matter with my young niece who have some talent for drawing when I met with that phenomena. I asked her to draw by memory a recently overhauled car alternator I had in garage. It was pictured perfectly even with some details I never actually noticed, like a contour of a place where lost label with partnumber and stuff was glued. She didn't know what it is and never really draw anything technical, apart from garden tools or cars.
Either an artist wasn't a witness of phenomena and draw a picture from a very bad textual description, either this is a hoax.
The problem is that ALL such pictures drawn that way. It is improbable that from hundreds of such pictures none of artists was a witness and ALL of them pictured only from poor textual description.
It is Europeans make themselves poor.
Europe is as rich with resources as Russia or Canada. Actually they don't need to buy anything abroad, they could mine everything they need just from under their feet.
Fuel: Enormous reserves of coal under Poland, Germany Britain and France. Oil is under the european shelf, under Scandinavia Britain, Ireland, Iceland and Nothern Spain. Natural gas under the Midterranian sea beach. Uranium could be mined right near Paris without much problems. It's not even very deep there. There is enough uranium near Paris to fuel all European nuclear plants for centuries.
Metal ore: Everywhere. European soil is reach with iron. Copper is in Italy, Greece and Cyprus. (Cyprus mean Copper in ancient Greek).
So called "rare-earths": Midterranian beach is full of rare-earths. Scandinavia too. Fuck, nearly half of all rare-earths named after European locations:
- Europium: Obviusly named after Europe itself
- Terbium: Named after the Swedish town of Ytterby
- Holmium: Latin 'holmia' for the old name of Stockholm.
- Erbium: Named after the Swedish town of Ytterby (again)
- Thulium: Named after the old name of Scandinavia, 'Thule'
- Ytterbum: Named after the Swedish town of Ytterby (once again)
- Lutetium: Named after the Roman name 'Lutetia' for Paris.
- Yttrium: Named after the small town of Ytterby (are they kidding me?)
- Scandium: Named because it was found in Scandinavia.
And so on.
Europeans become too lazy and arrogant to even think about mining absolutely everything they need for their industry and wealth by themselves. They think somebody should provide them all that stuff for their colored paper and they will teach everybody around about how to live and what to think.
So fuck them. They live on the reach reserves and don't bother to dig them out.
It is like to live near a lake full of fish surrounded by the forest full of game and all kind of berries and mashrooms, along with endless wood for building and fire, and constantly whine about severe starvation, cold, homelessnes being too lazy to make a fishing rod, bow and axe - they are their own enemies and fully deserve everything what will happen with them.
If Europeans prefer to have a ski resort in Alps instead of rare-earth mine, overpriced Paris suburbs instead of Uranium factory or luxury realty in Nice instead of Lithium quarry - then let them source all what their industry need from sole existence of this luxury properties. Fuck this arrogant beggars.
In mid 1800s some rich British man named Sam Rowbotham, without any skills in science and math, with humanitarian education, running his own socialist commune (!), suddenly created all that flat earth points we still see in flat earthers spam unchanged. After publishing his "Zetetic Astronomy" he was given greenlight by British authorities for public lectures and creating an organization. He got devoted followers and this group start to do exactly what flatearthers do today - from different public platforms start to loudly challenged scientific institutions and called for public experiments "to find a truth" with stakes. Of course, when lost and had to pay stake to winner, group didn't do that, and got sued. Flatearth hype declined, lecturers begun to just run away from their lectures after "uncomfortable" questions of people. and group had some finacial problems in late 1800s. Things become worse when Rowbotham died. But everything changed, when gorup discovered a new market for their scam - US. And bankrupted group suddenly received money from Royal Geographical society, move into US and resurrect their flatearth campaign overseas. With high probability, Royals decided it would be useful to undermine rivals education level, so flatearthers got direct and open Royal support.
They did exactly same in US - lectures, challenging education institutions and so on. However, in US flatearthing eventually died too.
I think that first flatearthers was a first proof-of-concept of what we know now as NGOs, and fully curated by British crown. Test run, to see if it is possible to push any stupid narrative to public through "independent" organization.
FlatEarthers ressurected from nowhere in mid 1900s, right after WWII, and again, surprise, surprise, in Britain. This time, founder, who was not rich in any measure, and barely made both ends meet, suddenly got resources to organize official society, lectures, publish books and so on. Again, created in Britain, this all eventually end in US.
Third ressurection happened wihen internet become available for average man. Before that, flatearth was rarely and randomly mentioned on different usenet confs, maillists, boards, regardless of topic only for obvious lulz and trolling, nothing more, but when corporations began to turn internet into public MSM, and different alternative and conspiracy groups began to form, there appeared a distinct and steady influx of flatearth narrative specifically targeted only at that groups. And we all could easily observe this today even right here.