Lol.
You do know the sky is the opposite direction of the earth right?
Yes it is
Then why can’t you answer those questions? Scientific models are built from data, and they are built for purpose/use. What is the purpose of this model, and who validated/verified this data set to build it? Again, models are NOT for measurement nor determining the shape of any object in reality - we use measurement for that!
It matters not who put it together.
I mostly agree! It matters much more who validated the dataset from which it is built, and more importantly than that - HOW it was validated/verified. It categorically / semantically cannot be a scientific model without definite, explicit, and thoroughly known answers to these questions (and others)!
There is not another sun in our known world.
Possibly (at least not in our known/accepted world). How can we validate and verify that with certainty? And if that is correct (that there is only one sun), then how can we determine that where we see the sun is actually where the sun is (especially knowing that refraction through air alone ensures that it isn’t - and this is one of the reasons that we know that the sunset is an illusion!!!)
I don't agree this is productive
Not in and of itself, no. Discussion is just that. Musing is just that. The next, and most important, step is validation/verification of such “conclusions” bore from discussion! In my view, this is best conducted through science - but that is by no means the only way.
You just don't see like you are willing to question your believes
I’m actually a little more aggressive when it comes to beliefs. I don’t “question” them; instead I seek to annihilate/excise them! Belief is the enemy of knowledge, and across purposes to objective study of any kind. As a result, we shouldn’t question our beliefs, we should identify and destroy them. We should seek to know (with certainty) and understand how we know (with certainty) or recognize, acutely, that we do not know. Right?
Saying "it's a video" doesn't mean its not evidence.
I agree! I didn’t mean to say it wasn’t evidence, I just meant to say it isn’t discussion! I am most interested in earnest discussion, and rarely have time for videos. I just wanted to explain that I’m not ignoring you or anything we are discussing!
And the shape of the world can be concluded not to be spherical just by staring up and pondering.
I agree! That’s the trouble, and that’s how we got into this mess at least 2 thousand years ago! We can conclude absolutely anything we want while sitting on our asses, staring up, and pondering. That is the way that mythology is created! That is precisely the way that the globe “conclusion” (really an unvalidated assumption misrepresented as fact from childhood) came to be! Don’t you see the problem?!
Peer reviewed articles are not nesseary in these observations and proofs
Agreed!
Its not debateable.
Sadly everything is debatable. The trick is to recognize that debate is not the way we determine what is going in reality, is merely base pageantry for sycophants and fools, and is to be avoided at all costs!
You can learn or stay programmed.
I choose learn! Let us learn together, and share our learning with one another!
The model is based on solid scientific evidence and observation
No, it isn’t. It’s largely based on speculation and guessing. Who put together this model? What are their names, and where do they derive their datasets? Who verified/validated their datasets? etc. etc. The flat earth “models” that exist are anything but scientific, and it is important to recognize that in my view. They are merely graphical conceptual aids - possibilities. It is important to study reality, not models!
There is no possible other explaination
Whenever we have such “absolute” thoughts we are typically wrong. More exists in heaven and earth than exists in all of our philosophies. And through imagination, all things are possible. If you can’t imagine another possibility, it is usually a failure of imagination!
As I said before, 2 (of many) possibilities for how the earth could be flat AND the 24 hr sun could exist in antarctica are :
- The sun seen in antarctica could be a refraction/reflection of the sun.
- There could be more than one sun.
Many who mistake the graphical conceptual aids as models become unduly certain that antarctica is a ring of ice surrounding the world - which in and of itself is a speculation - not a certainty.
How light shines on a sphere is physical proof. If you can't see what I'm saying, then we have more evidence that poeople dont learn from these types of discussions.
Or we have more discussion to have, and more evidence to provide! Communication is difficult, but worth the repeated effort to successfully convey. How light shines on a sphere depends a lot on the light source, and the media it travels through on route to said sphere! Things are not as a cut and dry in my view, however I am interested to learn more about your reasoning and to exchange my own! Hopefully you aren’t too burnt out on talking already!
What? You didn't establish that there is an existence of the flat earth psyop. But I did provide evidence for a globe earth psyop.
You provided a video. We can discuss evidence of the flat earth psyop if you wish, but because you had already mentioned some (flat earth strawman websites) i didn’t think you doubted it!
As for the globe psyop, in my view - it is a more reasonable view that we are merely miseducated. Humanity requires no assistance to be stupid and wrong as it historically always is. In any case, the anti flat earth propaganda (psyop) is typically pro globe - so depending on perspective, I agree we could consider such things part of a “globe psyop”. Do you think that most every teacher in the world is an unwitting participant in this psyop?
You see how this goes nowhere if you ignore evidence and discussion?
I’m in it for the discussion/exchange! It’s not “going nowhere” for me! I am doing the opposite of ignoring - I’m engaging... in discussion!
I am happy to discuss evidence, and don’t cite videos very often as a result. If I do cite videos I am usually happy to write out some important/relevant points in the discussion itself, as many others (like me) also don’t want to devote time to watching videos (i.e. burned too many times in the past) and are seeking discussion!
In our other thread, it was the same unmomentous discussions
Communication is hard, and takes time. It isn’t always momentous :( But it is necessary to exchange our views, which is a worthwhile goal in my view. Learning something new can indeed be momentous, and is well worth the effort in my view.
You're not earnestly trying to disprove your own notions, you aren't entertaining the evidence
Are you sure you are talking about me? I am quite happy to have my notions refuted and engage in discussions like these to that end (as well as conduct further research)! As for entertaining evidence - I just don’t watch videos and tend towards discussion instead! I am not sure when I will get to your video - perhaps you could provide (in discussion/text) some of your favorite evidences that we can discuss?
You can't see how crystal clear flat earth is because you are firmly stuck in a dicodomy that flat earth and globe earth can't be known, or that there is a debate
Not at all! Debate is base pageantry for sycophants and fools. I also avoid dichotomies - they are almost always contrived and false/wrong. The world isn’t flat or globe with no other conceivable possibilities. Of course the shape of the world can be known, just like the shape of any physical object in reality! It just can’t be known by staring at lights in the sky and “pondering”! There is only one way to determine, with certainty, the shape of physical objects; rigorous and repeated measurement of them!
Observation proves flat earth and observation proves sun is close and earth don't move
I agree that the sun is most likely much closer than the numbers made up by astronomers, I also agree the earth is stationary, but the only way to prove the shape of anything is to measure it rigorously and repeatedly (not merely observe). I am of the view that we lack the verified and verifiable data to determine the true shape of the entire world - however it is certainly not a globe of the size we are taught.
You can learn, but there isn't a debate to have.
Agreed! Right back at ya!
you are NOT prepared for an intellectual discussion on the topic
Perhaps. I never cared much for academics!
its not going to be a productive discussion if i can call bullshit on the first point you make.
I think calling bullshit might be a little premature. My point was that scientific models are built for purpose/use! They are not for understanding, they are not for determining the shapes of physical objects, and as far as I am aware there is no scientific model of a flat earth (what would its purpose even be?). Models are meta-scientific tools built for specific use. All models are wrong, some are useful for finite tasks (and usually for a finite amount of time, to boot).
you dont understand the flat earth model, so you couldn't understand how wrong this statement is and how the sun moves relative to the south rim.
I have seen the graphics/diagrams/videos that, often, depict antarctica as a giant ice ring surrounding the known world. I have seen the depictions of the sun and moon juxtaposed onto them. They are merely speculative depictions - graphical aids to help communicate possibilities. They aren’t maps, they aren’t models, and they certainly aren’t scientific.
If they were correct and scientific, there would still be potential ways for the antarctic 24 hr sun to exist. To say that the model “proves” this and that is to misunderstand, and venerate, a mere graphical conceptual aid.
i agree earnest discussion is great, but most people are not capable of it.
Sadly I think you might be right. However, we all get better when we practice! Flat earth research, in my experience, is largely about building such skills and refining them! I think that most everyone can learn to be a better independent researcher/student and engage in earnest discourse - and that everyone will be made better/more able by doing so!
there are also strawman flat earth sites, is that what you are talking about?
Kind of; they are certainly a part of what I meant. The flat earth psyop is a large amount of anti flat earth propaganda, and some ostensibly pro flat earth propaganda with loudly advertised wrong/stupid claims mixed in for discrediting (strawmanning by another route). The purpose of the flat earth psyop is to prevent earnest research into the subject.
here, i just uploaded to show evidence that globe is a psyop (skip to 30:00 to see Psyop definition, then watch from the beginning ) https://file.io/fKl5wkblRziS
I typically don’t watch videos, but I’ll try and take a look when i can. Personally, I am of the view that even if the globe is some sort of psyop - it usually doesn’t help to speculate on such things and certainly doesn’t help to determine the shape of the world as an independent researcher/student nor encourage others to do so! However, the existence of the flat earth psyop does suggest that there is a vested interest in maintaining the current (mandated) worldview and demonstrates an interest to prevent earnest discussion and exploration of this important subject.
i dont think you have ever encountered someone who claimed the 24 hour sun in the artic is fake
Not “irl”, no - and, due to poe’s law, I could have misinterpreted them - but ostensibly yes, I did encounter them! I’d have to check my old messages to figure out who it was - but it was on this site.
You don't understand how the lack of the 24 hour sun in the Antarctic proves that the earth cannot be a sphere.
I think I understand why you think it does, but I don’t think you have considered the possibility that the world could be flat AND have a 24 hour sun in the antarctic.
One is not necessarily dependent on the other, nor would the lack of an antarctic sun prove that the world were spherical. The lights in the sky do what they do, the land is separate. In order to measure the shape of the land, we must measure the land! Not observe lights in the sky (the opposite direction) and then infer based on unvalidated assumption! Right?
Are you sure you meant to send this to me?
The psyop is, sadly, very real and easy to demonstrate and observe.
Then why is there a multi million dollar ad campaign to make sure you “know” and repeat that? You think that netflix specials and top 20 youtube results come cheap?
The “issue” is extremely important to discuss and explore - precisely because it is so rewarding!
Give it a shot and let us earnestly exchange our perspectives together! I am not a part of the psyop you have, sadly, encountered and I assure you that the conversation will be valuable as long as you are earnest!
What do you have to lose but a little time (that you are already wasting on it anyhow) and the chance to learn about something new?
You used a lot of words and still said nothing.
I asked two simple questions - can you really not answer either of them? In any case, I have lots to say - but I can’t and won’t make you talk to me to learn what they are!
Such are the tactics of a flat earth shill
A shill is someone being paid by (or useful idiot to) the psyop. The psyop’s purpose is to STOP you from ever seriously discussing/studying the subject (typically by saying offensively stupid things as loudly and often as possible). I want the complete opposite!
But unfortunately, that isn't me.
Great! Then ignore my diction and focus on the meaning and content instead! If you didn’t understand what I meant, or would like it rephrased into words with less syllables - just ask!
The two simple questions are :
what is the measured and measurable shape of waters surface at rest? (ignoring irrelevant meniscus effects, because they only happen with small surface area and do not curve the way the globe model requires them to in any case)
Bubbles are often spherical - does that prove the shape of the gas?
I’m pretty sure I’ve invited you before, but if not - please join us on the community I created to exchange views and discuss such things. Your approach, prespective, and experience would no doubt be of value if you wish to share it!
Please click my username and find the link, or let me know and I will pm it to you!
Assuming it is a conspiracy (a large assumption), possibly a very long time (millennia).
Please join us on the community I created to exchange views on this topic and explore other alternatives in more depth!
Click my username and find the link, or let me know and I will pm it to you!
The real question is, barring negligible and irrelevant surface tension artifacts of minuscule surfaces, what is the measured and measurable shape of waters surface at rest?
Bubbles are often spherical - does that prove the shape of the gas? The logic you are trying to employ (to play apologist) is silly!
I refuse to believe people are genuinely this stupid.
That is a good instinct! The flat earth psyop is offensively stupid and heavily advertised (i.e. funded) specifically so you will never earnestly discuss it.
Please join us on the community I created for its earnest exploration and to exchange perspectives! It will be well worth your time, as long as you are earnest.
Click my username and find the link, or let me know and I will pm it to you!
But in the 10 years the psyop has been running, I have yet to hear a single person say they have thought up such tests and described them, let alone performed them. I'm sure some have, but it's incredibly rare.
That’s the major purpose of the heavily advertised (i.e. funded) psyop! To make sure you never encounter earnest researchers, or become one yourself! Imagine needing/wanting to spend so much to advertise that something already ostensibly stupid is too stupid to be worth looking into further!
The point here is that the simple, most basic idea of science to use observation and experiment to prove or disprove basic theories about the world has been nearly completely lost.
Agreed. Please join us on the community I created to discuss and exchange our views on this important subject! I am certain we will all benefit from the discussion as long as we are earnest. We have a lot to talk about, if you are interested!
Please click my username and find the link, or let me know and I will pm it to you!
Which conspiracy theories were intentionally created to spread disinformation?
Too many to mention :( A few notable american ones; the us landed men on the moon, jfk was killed by a lone crazed gunman, federal tax dollars go to support infrastructure / benefit the nation.
My vote is for the flat-Earth theory.
There is no flat earth theory for the same reason there is no round/globe earth theory. Scientific theories simply aren’t applicable for determining the shapes of physical objects - we use measurement for that!
There is a heavily advertised (i.e. funded) flat earth psyop however, which is - as you have no doubt seen - offensively stupid and often billed as a “conspiracy”.
If you want to know why they spend so much on the flat earth psyop, and what flat earth research is really all about, please join us on the community I created to earnestly discuss it! I promise it will be worth your while if you engage earnestly!
Click my username and find the link, or let me know and I’ll pm it to you!
if earth is flat then every account of a 24 hour south sun is a lie.
So we are encouraged to believe, however there are many other possibilities (at least in potentia)!
If the earth is flat, then every observation we record/measure/have occurs on a flat earth, even if that includes a 24hr sun in the arctic and antarctic! Right?
That's a lot of misleading videos on youtube...and not just the time lapse ones but actual scientists talking about their supposed experience.
I find it interesting as well!
There clearly is a model that is observed, and by adding 2+2, anyone can see that a 24 hour sun in Antarctica is not possible
Not really. Hear me out!
First, in a scientific sense - there are no flat earth models whatsoever. The flat earth “models” that exist are more like actual models (like in the sense of model from the phrase “model ship”) / graphic conceptual aids.
Secondly, no models are observed. We make observations and then build models from them! We also don’t use (scientific) models to determine the shape of any object in reality. We use measurement for that!
There is no reason that the world can’t be flat AND the 24 hr sun in antarctica occurs. In fact, if we had confirmed both observations (some researchers conclude this is the case) then our model (assuming we should want to build one) must include both observations! For one possibility, among scores, what if the sun observed in antarctica were a reflection of the sun and not the sun proper? For another, what if there were more than one sun? In imagination, all things are possible.
And the fact that 24 hour sun does not occur proves the earth is not round
Not necessarily! In fact, the best (and only) way to prove the earth is not round is to measure it (not look at objects in the sky!)!
which proves space is fake, which proves Elon is a fucking liar.
There are easier and better ways to prove these two things!
But so are all space programs and astronauts.
That is the simplest option, but sadly not the only one. They could well be closer to victims than to liars :(
I see why we should separate flat earthers from the forums like this, we wake too many people up to the real red pill that people can't handle
I don’t think we should separate them, but I do (largely) think we should discuss such topics in further depth on a more appropriate community.
but also if all of us knew globe was a hoax, we would bum rush the 60th eventually. Too much of a liability. The farmers would have to cull the human herd.
Possibly. If we knew that we were working for the enemy (as conpro concludes/teaches), the first thing we would/should do is stop working for them and serve our families and communities (directly) instead!
I liked it before that. Held on too long.
I feel you :( Nothing gold can stay...
Anyway, I'll stop pushing flat earth truth to this tiny and partially awake conspiracy group by leaving.
I think that would be a mistake, but rather than “push truth” I think we should encourage earnest discussion and study. It is the duty of us few who see to help the others to do the same!
All of these videos and claims of 24 hour south pole sun must be fake?
I am not sure. I’ve even encountered some who claim the 24 hour sun in the arctic is also fake.
Many, like yourself, have found “anomalies” in the footage that exists for antarctica - which in and of itself is interesting.
In any case, wether there is a 24 hour sun in the winter (their summer) in the antarctic is irrelevant to the shape of the world.
There are many flawed models (strawman models) that we are intended to adopt as independent researchers so that they may be disproven to discredit us. Only accept as true/correct what you have personally verified/validated thoroughly first!
To any with an interest in the subject, please join us on the community I created to exchange our views on it!
Or perhaps I should! Not to wind you up, but to understand your perspective and research journey better.
We may enjoy discussing the topic further, as well as many other related topics on the community I created for them. Would you be interested to discuss there? I think others there would also be interested in the conversation (ideally now, as well as in the future)!
It is all so obvious in retrospect.
Hindsight is 2020 :(
Relativity is for children.
Curve-level :( This is like an inverse/corollary argument of that :( This won’t be very convincing to the (largely unbeknownst) believers as a result.
They say level is “curve-a-level” (which sounds just as stupid and unscientific as it is) and you say (effectively, if not intentionally) level is always flat - requiring a convex trough (at the very least) to accommodate the curvature and maintain a flat top like we observe and measure... It’s a conflation to convey the absurdity, but all it does is end up coming off as absurd.
——————————————
To all with any interest in this subject and/or topic, please join us on the community I created for its further exploration and exchange of views!
Thank you TerfidDillywop.
you and I are going to have words.
This was my favorite part ;)
It seems we share the “put up or shut up” research motto. Almost everyone shuts the f up, as they should. Well done. Kudos.
You don’t think reasoning is innate, and comes from within? I would refer to reasoning as the (attempted, and usually failed) logical process to deduce/understand.
I agree that it is largely/heavily influenced by the words of others, many not engaging in reasoning (falsehood, instead), however surely some of them are?!
Can no one reason at all? Is reasoning not involved in piercing the veil of what we observe in perceivable reality. Much of what we perceive/see is not what is, and reasoning/deduction is required to understand what is happening further - right?
Awesome point about ad-vers-ary though...
To anyone with an interest in this subject, please join us on the community I created to further discuss, explore, and exchange views on it! Click my username and find the link, or let me know and I will pm it to you.
If we want to know the shape of the earth, we have to measure the earth - not the sky!