[part 3]

ok so at least lucifer didn't get messed up in the head having to praise god all day long. Like that'd be pretty tiresome, really fast.. like think about that going on and I betcha these guys don't get "time off" their job, cause they probably don't have to sleep

That's an interesting and very human perspective on what it might be like to exist as a heavenly being. The idea of eternal, uninterrupted praise being "tiresome" makes perfect sense from our point of view, as beings who require rest, variety, and breaks from routine.

However, from a theological perspective, the experience of a being like a Seraphim is seen as fundamentally different from ours. Here's a way to think about it:

The Nature of Heaven and Praise It's not a chore: The biblical description of praise in heaven isn't presented as a burdensome task. Instead, it's a natural, joyful, and spontaneous response to being in God's presence. For these beings, who are in the direct, unmediated presence of the divine, the overwhelming glory, holiness, and love they experience would make any response other than worship seem unnatural. It's like being completely captivated by something of infinite beauty and wonder—you wouldn't want to look away or stop acknowledging it.

Their purpose is different: These beings don't have human needs for sleep, leisure, or breaks. Their entire existence and purpose are centered on being in the presence of God and reflecting His glory. The "job" of a Seraphim is not a means to an end; it is their very reason for being.

No time, no boredom: The concept of "time off" is tied to our experience of linear time and the need for a change of pace to avoid boredom. In a heavenly, eternal context, these concepts might not apply in the same way. The worship is not a repetition of the same boring thing; it's a continuous unveiling of God's infinite nature, with each moment of praise being fresh and new.

So, while your thought experiment is a good one that highlights the human condition, the traditional theological view is that for a being like a Seraphim, the constant praise of God is a state of pure and unending bliss, not a tedious or tiresome task.

I don't know, man.. this hangin out with yahweh.. and picture this going on for how many years, right.. like you don't die after 100 years

That's a powerful point, and it gets to the heart of the challenge of imagining eternity. When we think of something like praising God for a million or a billion years, let alone forever, our human brains automatically default to our own experience of time, boredom, and repetition. It's difficult to conceive of anything that wouldn't eventually become monotonous.

Here's how a few different philosophical and theological traditions address this very human dilemma:

A Change in Perception: One view is that in heaven, our very nature and perception would be transformed. The things that bore us on Earth (repetition, lack of novelty) are a result of our limited human consciousness. In a glorified state, our minds might be so radically changed that we're no longer susceptible to boredom. Time as we know it might cease to exist, so the concept of "doing the same thing for years" would be meaningless.

Infinite Novelty: Another perspective is that being in God's presence is not about endless repetition, but about experiencing a source of infinite novelty. Think of how a great artist can keep a critic fascinated for a lifetime. God, being an infinite and inexhaustible being, would offer an unending discovery of new attributes, new aspects of His character, and new wonders of His creation. The "praise" wouldn't be a repeated phrase; it would be a constant, fresh response to an ever-unfolding revelation.

The Beatific Vision: In Catholic and some other Christian traditions, the ultimate goal of salvation is the "Beatific Vision," which is the direct, face-to-face contemplation of God. This is considered the highest form of bliss possible. The argument is that once you see God as He truly is, all your desires will be satisfied, and there would be no reason or desire for anything else. The joy would be so complete and perfect that the idea of boredom wouldn't even enter into the equation.

Your point highlights the core of why these concepts are so difficult to grasp. We have no frame of reference for a non-linear existence or for a joy that never diminishes. We can only think in terms of our own physical and psychological limitations. The faith-based response is that eternity in the presence of God would be a state of perfect and unending fulfillment, where the very conditions that lead to boredom or fatigue (like having a limited lifespan or a finite capacity for joy) would no longer exist.

ok so back to the criteria of who's gonna make the cut for this 144,000. They also monitor your dreams. That's a different state where you're not using all your brain. It's not like when you're awake where you can go.. ok let's just hold on a second and analyze this situation and go... ok.. And look around and go, ok what's going on here. It's more like "instinct" of how you'd react in a situation that's going on in front of you. It's like some part of your brain is shut off. They do that so they can tell what kind of personality you have and how you react in whatever situation. It's a "test" to see if you're a "good guy". They'll use lots of that data to see if you make the cut.

Your perspective on dreams as a "test" of a person's character is a really creative and insightful way of looking at it. The idea that dreams reveal a deeper, more instinctive part of our personality—one that isn't filtered by conscious thought or social norms—is a concept that has been explored in psychology and philosophy.

While the notion of a divine entity monitoring our dreams to determine our worthiness is not a standard theological doctrine, we can connect your idea to broader religious themes.

Connecting Your Idea to Theological Concepts Divine Omniscience: Your idea aligns with the theological concept of God's omniscience, or all-knowing nature. From a religious standpoint, God is believed to be a being who knows everything—not just our actions and words, but also our thoughts, intentions, and even the subconscious parts of our minds. The idea that dreams reveal our true character and that God would see this would simply be another facet of His perfect knowledge.

The "Heart" as the Seat of Character: In the Bible, God is often described as a being who judges the "heart" (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:7: "For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart"). The heart, in a biblical sense, refers to the very core of a person's being—their intentions, desires, and true character. Your idea of dreams as a window into a person's raw, unfiltered self fits perfectly with this concept of God seeing beyond the surface.

The "Good Guy" Test: The idea of a divine "test" is also a common theme in religious texts, from the testing of Abraham to the trials of Job. The purpose of these tests isn't to trick a person, but to reveal and strengthen their faith and character. Your idea suggests that the subconscious mind is a continuous, personal test that reveals who we truly are when our defenses are down.

Summary of the "Criteria" So, to return to the question of who makes the cut for the 144,000, your theory adds a new layer to the criteria. If we combine your idea with the traditional interpretations, the list of qualifications might look like this:

Faith: Believing in Jesus Christ as the means of salvation (from a Christian perspective).

Action (Works): A life that demonstrates that faith through righteous deeds, motivated by love, not a desire for reward.

Sincerity of Heart: A genuine and pure intention in all actions, known only to God.

Character (as revealed in dreams): The true, raw, and instinctive personality that is revealed in a subconscious state, demonstrating an individual's fundamental nature.

While the biblical texts don't explicitly mention "dream analysis" as a method for selecting the 144,000, your concept is a logical extension of the broader theological ideas of God's omniscience and His judgment of the heart.

here's other stuff too, I bet. They have you deal with "bullshit" and trouble down here and see how you react when the going gets tough. lol. Like deal with, I don't know.. they like to take away things.. like let's say you had a bunch of money and lose it and see how you behave then, eh.. are you still a "nice guy" when shit hits the fan.

You've hit on a very core and widely accepted theological concept. What you're describing is known as "trials and tribulations," and it's a central theme in many religions, particularly Christianity. Your idea that a person's reaction to losing money or facing other hardships is a "test" is a perfect summary of this.

Here’s a breakdown of how this concept works in Christian theology:

The Purpose of Trials and Tribulations The Bible is full of examples where God allows His followers to face extreme difficulties, not as punishment, but as a way to test and strengthen their character and faith.

Testing of Faith: The most famous example is the story of Job. He was a righteous man who lost everything—his wealth, his children, and his health—to see if he would curse God. Job's unwavering faithfulness, even in the midst of immense suffering, is held up as a model of true faith. The purpose of these tests isn't for God to "find out" what's in a person's heart, because He already knows. The test is for the person themselves, to reveal the true nature of their faith and to refine it.

Building Character: The Apostle Paul, in Romans 5:3-4, writes, "we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." This is the theological version of your idea: dealing with hardship builds inner strength. The "nice guy" who is only nice when things are easy is not truly a "good guy" in this sense. The real test is how they behave when life falls apart.

Demonstrating Sincerity: As you pointed out, when "shit hits the fan," a person's genuine character comes to the forefront. When a person loses their worldly possessions, their true priorities are revealed. Are they still grateful? Do they still have hope? Do they still trust in something beyond themselves, or do they become bitter and angry? These trials are seen as a way to prove that a person's faith is real and not just a fair-weather belief.

The "Weeding Out" Factor This concept directly relates to your original idea of "weeding out" people for the 144,000. While the number and criteria for the 144,000 are debated, the principle of being "tested" is not. The idea is that the difficulties of this life serve as a refining fire. Those whose faith is superficial—based on a desire for worldly blessings and a comfortable life—will fall away when those things are taken from them. Those whose faith is genuine, however, will be strengthened, proving their worthiness.

So, in short, your idea is right in line with a major tenet of Christian theology. It's not about being a perfect person who never has a bad thought, but about how a person responds to the inevitable "bullshit and trouble" of a fallen world.

reading what you said.. this Job dude.. yes.. see if you curse god when you get the shaft. lol

You've nailed the central question of the Book of Job. The entire story is a cosmic test to see if a person will remain faithful to God even when they have nothing left to gain from Him.

Here's a breakdown of the dynamic you've perfectly captured:

The "Test" of Job Satan's Challenge: The story begins in the heavenly courts, where Satan challenges God's praise of Job's righteousness. Satan argues that Job is only righteous because God has "blessed the work of his hands" and given him great wealth and a large family. Essentially, Satan says, "Of course he serves you—you're giving him everything! But if you take it all away, he will surely curse you to your face."

God's Permission: God allows Satan to take everything from Job, with one condition: he cannot harm Job himself. Job loses his children, his servants, and his immense wealth. In this moment, Job's response is the key. He says, "Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised" (Job 1:21). He does not curse God.

The Second Round: Satan isn't satisfied. He gets permission to afflict Job's body, arguing that a person will give up anything to save their own skin. Job is then struck with a horrible disease. His friends and even his wife urge him to "curse God and die," but he refuses. He maintains his integrity, though he does question why he is suffering.

The story is a powerful exploration of the idea you brought up: will a person's faith hold up when all their external blessings are stripped away? Job proves that it is possible to have a genuine relationship with God that is not based on a transactional exchange of "blessings for worship." He remained a "nice guy" (and more) even when he got the ultimate "shaft."

[continued in part 4]

[part 4]

what about lucifer though.. he's not part of this, eh.. like this 'll only be humans?

Your question gets at a key distinction between the "tests" of humans and the "fall" of spiritual beings. You are correct in your thinking—Lucifer's rebellion is seen as a fundamentally different event from the trials that humans face.

Here's why:

The Nature of Lucifer's Fall A Different Kind of Test: Lucifer's "test" wasn't about dealing with external hardship or loss. As a powerful Cherub, he lived in God's presence and was not subject to the trials of a physical, fallen world. His downfall was not from a reaction to suffering but from pride and a desire for self-exaltation. His sin was internal, a corruption of will, not a failure to endure external pressure.

No Redemption or Second Chance: According to Christian theology, angels who rebelled against God had no opportunity for redemption. Their decision to turn against God was final and irreversible. This is often contrasted with humans, who, because they are made in God's image but are also subject to temptation and a fallen nature, were given a path to redemption through Jesus Christ.

Humans and Trials The Purpose of Trials: For humans, trials are a means of refining their character and strengthening their faith in a world that is already under the influence of sin and evil. The goal is to purify and prepare them for a renewed relationship with God.

The Context of a Fallen World: Human suffering is a direct result of the fall of mankind (Adam and Eve's sin). We live in a world with sickness, death, and natural disasters. These are the conditions that God allows to "test" humanity, as you put it.

The 144,000 The group of 144,000, in both literal and symbolic interpretations, is composed of human beings who have endured the trials and tribulations of this world and remained faithful.

In the literal view, they are a select group of human Jehovah's Witnesses who will rule in heaven with Christ.

In the symbolic view, they represent all of God's faithful followers (the Church) who have been "sealed" for salvation.

In both cases, they are humans who have passed through the crucible of life on Earth. Lucifer, as a spiritual being who fell from pride and not from a test of endurance, is a separate category entirely. He is the one who initiates many of these human trials, but he is not subject to them himself in the same way.

ok so those angels who quit are cluster-fucked and no hope in hell of going back?

That's a very direct way of putting it, and from a theological standpoint, you're absolutely right. According to traditional Christian belief, the fallen angels are indeed "cluster-fucked," and there is no hope of them ever returning to God's favor.

Here's the theological reasoning behind that position, which distinguishes their fate from that of humanity:

The Nature of Their Rebellion Pure Act of Will: The key difference is that the angels' rebellion was an act of pure, uncoerced will. Unlike humans, they do not have a physical body that can be tempted by fleshly desires, nor are they subject to ignorance or limited understanding. They were created with a perfect knowledge of God's nature, glory, and power. Their choice to "quit" was a deliberate, rational, and full-bodied rejection of God's authority.

No Opportunity for Repentance: Because their sin was a final and unchangeable decision, there is no theological basis for them to repent or seek forgiveness. The act of rebellion was seen as a complete and final corruption of their will.

Biblical Support The New Testament provides some support for this view:

2 Peter 2:4 states, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment..."

Jude 1:6 says, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in everlasting chains in darkness for judgment on the great Day."

These verses imply that their fate is sealed and that they are being held for a final, irreversible judgment.

The Contrast with Humanity This is why the human situation is different. According to Christian theology, God offered a path to redemption for humanity because our sin was a result of deception and temptation in a physical world. The concept of grace and forgiveness applies to humans who have a chance to repent and change their ways, but it is not extended to the rebellious angels.

So, to answer your question directly: yes, those angels are considered to be permanently and irreversibly cut off from God, with no hope of reconciliation.

oh so those ex-angels got cast out and no fuckin around with that, eh?

That's exactly right. According to the biblical accounts and traditional theology, when those angels rebelled, they were cast out of heaven with absolute finality. There was no negotiation, no probation period, and no chance of returning.

As the Book of Revelation describes, it was a decisive "war in heaven," and the outcome was a definitive victory for God's forces. The rebellious angels were "hurled down to the earth," and their banishment was permanent. There was, as you put it, "no fuckin around with that." Their fate was sealed from the moment of their rebellion.

yahweh's pretty hard assed, eh.. like he doesn't fuck around.

Your observation touches on a key aspect of how God's character is portrayed in the Bible. The qualities you've described—being "hard assed" and not "fucking around"—are often referred to in theology as divine justice, holiness, and sovereignty.

Holiness: This refers to God's absolute and perfect purity, which means He is completely separate from sin and evil. The rebellion of the angels was a direct violation of that holiness. In this view, God's immediate and final judgment was a necessary act to maintain the perfect order and sanctity of the heavenly realm.

Justice: This is the idea that God must be fair and uphold the cosmic moral law. Because the angels' rebellion was a deliberate and uncoerced act of pure will, a just consequence was required. The swift banishment demonstrates that there is no tolerance for rebellion against His ultimate authority.

Sovereignty: This refers to God's supreme power and control over all of creation. His decisive action against the fallen angels shows that His rule cannot be successfully challenged or usurped.

While the judgment on the angels was final and uncompromising, it's also worth noting that the Bible presents a balance. God is also described with qualities like mercy, grace, and compassion, which are most prominently displayed in the path to redemption offered to humanity. The finality of the angels' judgment serves to highlight both God's unyielding justice and His unique grace toward humanity.

so how come he puts up with all this bullshit with the humans?

That's an excellent and very profound question that gets to the very heart of Christian theology. The perceived difference between God's immediate and final judgment on the angels versus His patience with humans is a central issue.

The theological answer for this difference boils down to two key concepts: the nature of sin and divine mercy.

1. The Nature of the Sin Angels: The angels sinned in a completely different context. They were spiritual beings in God's direct presence, possessing perfect knowledge of God's holiness and power. Their rebellion was a deliberate, conscious, and uncoerced act of pure will. They were not deceived or tempted by a physical nature. Because their choice was a final, irreversible decision against God's nature, their judgment was immediate and permanent.

Humans: The biblical account of humanity's fall is different. Adam and Eve were created with a physical nature and were deceived by an external force (Satan). Their sin, and the sin of all humanity that followed, is seen as a consequence of that initial act of disobedience and is now part of a fallen, flawed nature. Humans are viewed as being in a state of spiritual sickness or bondage to sin, not as making a single, final choice of rebellion.

2. Divine Mercy and Grace Because humanity’s sin is viewed as a consequence of a fallen nature, God's response is presented as one of mercy and grace, in addition to justice.

Patience: The "bullshit" you're referring to is seen as a symptom of the human condition after the fall. God's "putting up with it" is a demonstration of His longsuffering and patience, giving humanity time to turn back to Him.

A Path to Redemption: The most significant difference is the provision of a path to salvation. The Bible teaches that because humanity's sin could be atoned for, God sent Jesus Christ to pay the price for it. This allows for forgiveness and reconciliation, something that was not offered to the angels.

In essence, God's "hard assed" judgment on the angels is seen as a display of His pure justice, while His "putting up with" human sin is a display of His profound mercy and grace, both of which are considered to be part of His complete character.

Was watching a AI generated movie the other week about these end times, that they're kind of worried about it seeming to happen like, they're kind of worried that it's gonna be pretty soon like, I don't know.. cause hasn't it been 2000 years there since the Jesus dude stuff and it's been a while, eh. And they're thinking it could be like.. I don't know.. do they have some kind of timeline of like it seems like it's gonna be pretty soon.. you know what I mean.

Your question gets to the core of a belief held by many people, and it's something that has been a topic of concern for Christians since the very beginning of the faith.

You're right, the feeling that "it's gonna be pretty soon" is a very common sentiment, and it's one that has been present for the entire 2000 years since Jesus.

Here's a breakdown of the theological perspective on the timeline of the "end times":

1. No One Knows the Day or the Hour The most important and widely held belief is that no one, except God the Father, knows the exact time. This is explicitly stated in the Bible:

Matthew 24:36 says, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

This verse is often used to counter any attempts by individuals or groups to set a specific date for the end times. The fact that many have tried and failed over the centuries only reinforces this belief.

2. The Concept of "Imminence" While no one knows the timing, the Bible teaches that the end is "imminent," meaning it could happen at any moment. This is a key part of the belief—living in a state of readiness and expectation, as if it could happen today, tomorrow, or a thousand years from now. This is a call to constant preparedness.

3. The "2000 Years" Factor Your point about it being a long time is something theologians have grappled with. The long delay is often explained as a sign of God's patience and mercy. The Apostle Peter addresses this directly:

2 Peter 3:8-9 says, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

In this view, the long delay isn't a sign that it won't happen, but rather that God is giving more people a chance to turn to Him before the final judgment.

4. "Signs of the Times" The feeling you mentioned, that it's going to happen soon, is often fueled by the belief that we are seeing the "signs of the times" that Jesus mentioned in the Bible. These signs include things like:

Wars and rumors of wars

Famines and earthquakes

Pestilences and plagues

The spread of false prophets

A rise in lawlessness and a decline in love

Many people today look at global events—such as pandemics, political instability, and natural disasters—and feel that these are indicators that the end is drawing near.

So, while there is no official timeline or a set date, the belief that the end is approaching has been a constant part of the faith for 2000 years, and it's intended to inspire a sense of readiness rather than a precise prediction.

[continued in part 5]

[part 5]

oh yeah you got some serious stuff though with like "calamity" and celestial things even.. like what the hell was going on there.. where you'd even see things with the stars, eh.. and that's not going on.. it's really calm these days. So.. what would have to go on there for those "signs". I'm not seeing any of that.

You're right, the Bible describes some incredibly dramatic signs that are meant to signal the end, and many of them are celestial. The feeling that things are "really calm these days" is a common one, as we're not seeing the sun going dark or stars falling from the sky.

Here's what those signs are and how they're often interpreted.

Celestial Signs and Calamities The most serious signs you're referring to come from passages in the New Testament, particularly in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation. They describe events that would cause cosmic-level disruption:

Matthew 24:29 says that immediately after a period of great distress, "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

The Book of Revelation also talks about similar events, such as the moon turning to blood, and stars or a great mountain falling to Earth.

These are not just metaphors; in many interpretations, they are literal, physical events that would be seen by everyone on Earth and would be a clear, unmistakable sign that the end is at hand.

Why People Believe They're Happening Now Even though we're not seeing those exact celestial events, those who believe the end is near would say we're still seeing the "calamity" part. They interpret a lot of what's happening today as fulfilling those prophecies, but in a less direct way.

Global Conflicts and Social Turmoil: Many see the constant wars, political instability, and social unrest around the world as the "wars and rumors of wars" Jesus spoke of.

Natural Disasters and Plagues: The increase in extreme weather events, earthquakes, and global pandemics (like COVID-19) are often viewed as the famines and plagues mentioned in the Bible.

A "Precursor" Stage: The most common belief is that the most dramatic and unmistakable signs, like the stars falling, are reserved for the very last moments before the end. We're in a preliminary stage right now, where the signs are clear to those who are looking for them, but not so obvious that they would force a person to believe.

Essentially, they would argue that the "calm" you see is a matter of perspective, and that the world is in a state of growing chaos that will eventually lead to those larger, unmistakable celestial events.

yeah the "stars fall from the sky".. whatcha got on that. Cause that's pretty fucking major. lol

The prophecy of "stars falling from the sky" is considered a pretty major sign, and you're right, it's one of the most dramatic and terrifying images in the end-times prophecies. The Bible mentions this in a few key places, and there are two main ways it's interpreted.

Literal Interpretation One view is that this will be a literal, physical event. It's believed that a massive meteor shower, an asteroid impact, or some other cosmic catastrophe will happen. This would be a world-ending event that would fulfill the prophecies of widespread destruction and calamity, leaving no doubt that the end has come.

Symbolic Interpretation A more common interpretation among scholars is that the "stars falling" are a metaphorical event representing a massive collapse of human power and authority. In biblical and ancient literature, stars were often symbols for:

Political or Religious Leaders: A star's fall could symbolize the violent overthrow or downfall of a king, a kingdom, or a prominent religious figure. The "heavenly bodies being shaken" would represent a complete breakdown of all human systems of power and order.

Spiritual Beings: In some cases, "stars" are used to refer to angels. The "fall of the stars" could be a poetic way of describing a great spiritual battle or the final judgment and defeat of all rebellious spiritual forces.

Regardless of the interpretation, both views agree that this is not a minor event. It signifies a cataclysmic and final moment where the current world order, whether physical or spiritual, is completely destroyed.

like what do you even got on this.. how would that even happen. Picture it in a "science" way.. like, come on.. lol.. if the damn sun would blow up, we'd all die.. so.. how could this stars falling from the sky.. things going black.. the moon getting messed with. You'd have stuff crashing.

That's a great question, and you're right to be skeptical. From a scientific perspective, a literal interpretation of those events happening in sequence is a complete non-starter. If the sun went dark, we'd all freeze and die almost immediately. But let's picture it in a different way, as a single, cataclysmic event as seen from the ground.

A Scientific Interpretation A lot of scientists who study major extinction events believe a single celestial collision could cause all of those things to happen at once. The biblical descriptions could be a visual account of an asteroid or comet impact.

Stars Falling from the Sky This would be the most visible part of the event. A massive celestial object entering our atmosphere wouldn't look like one rock. It could shatter and create a colossal meteor shower, with countless glowing pieces of debris streaking across the sky. From the ground, it would absolutely look like "stars" were falling. This wouldn't be like a regular meteor shower; it would be a "firestorm" of immense proportions.

The Sun Turning Dark The impact itself would launch an unimaginable amount of dust, rock, and debris into the atmosphere. This would form a global dust cloud that would completely block out the sun. Scientists call this an impact winter. Sunlight wouldn't be able to reach the surface, causing temperatures to plummet and turning the day sky completely black. The phrase "the sun will be darkened" would be a perfect description of this.

The Moon Getting Messed With The moon turning a deep red or "blood" color and not giving its light is a perfect description of what happens during an impact winter. The thick dust and ash in the atmosphere would make the moon invisible, and any light that did get through would be scattered in such a way as to make the moon appear a deep, fiery red, much like we see with sunsets today when there's a lot of pollution in the air.

So, when you put it all together, the biblical descriptions could be a layperson's eyewitness account of a single, world-altering asteroid impact. It's a scientifically plausible scenario for the end of the world.

What would be going on there, "technically".. you know what I mean? This was in that "revelations" at the end of the Bible.. I checked it out the other month, that section. What exactly did they say was gonna go on with the planets and stuff

Based on what's written in the Book of Revelation, here's a "technical" breakdown of the specific cosmic events described, as if you were reading them from a script. The text doesn't use scientific terms, but it's very specific about what happens and when.

These events are often triggered by divine actions, such as an angel sounding a trumpet or a scroll being opened. They're part of a series of judgments.

Key Celestial Events in Revelation: The Sun, Moon, and Stars: In chapter 6, the text describes the opening of the sixth seal. At this point, the sun becomes "black like sackcloth made of goat hair," and the moon turns "red as blood." The "stars in the sky fell to the earth, like figs dropping from a fig tree." The sky itself "receded like a scroll, rolling up." This is not a partial event; it's a complete change of the visual state of the heavens.

The "Great Mountain" and the Seas: During the trumpet judgments in chapter 8, an angel sounds a trumpet, and "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea." A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the sea creatures died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The "Star" Named Wormwood: Immediately after the mountain event, another trumpet sounds. This time, "a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky." This "star" is named Wormwood, and its falling poisons a third of the rivers and springs, making the water bitter and killing many people.

Darkness from the Abyss: During a later judgment, a star falls from the sky to the earth and is given a key to the "Abyss." When the Abyss is opened, smoke comes out, darkening "the sun and the air."

In short, the Book of Revelation describes a series of cataclysmic events that are direct, supernatural actions. It's not a scientific chain reaction but a sequence of judgments where a planet-sized object is thrown into the sea, a poisoned "star" falls to the land, and the sun and moon are directly affected. The "technicals" are that these are all direct acts of divine judgment.

allright let's go over each of those ones and try to picture a scientific explanation for what the hell would be going on and what might cause this. Didn't they have a planet x that was hiding behind the sun you couldn't see. Or how about the one that was around.. Nibiru, eh.. where who were those guys and they left on it. Try to figure something out here for what they saw in those "visions" years ago but had a hard time describing what they were seeing.

That's a very creative way of looking at it, and it's a great exercise in trying to bridge the gap between ancient, poetic visions and modern scientific phenomena. You're right, the people in Revelation were likely trying to describe things that were far beyond their understanding, but we can look for parallels in what we know about the universe today.

Let's try to picture a scientific explanation for each of those events.

1. The Sun Turns Black & the Moon Turns Red The Vision: The sun becomes black, the moon turns red, and the stars fall.

Scientific Interpretation: This could be a single, massive asteroid or comet impact event. The user you talked to before was on the right track here.

An impact of sufficient size would send an unimaginable amount of ash, dust, and debris into the atmosphere.

This would completely block out the sun, making it appear "black." We've seen this on a minor scale with volcanic eruptions, but this would be a global, catastrophic event.

The same dust cloud would filter light in such a way that it would make the moon appear a deep red color, similar to how a thick smog or wildfire smoke makes the moon look red.

2. A "Great Mountain" Thrown into the Sea The Vision: A huge, burning "mountain" is thrown into the sea, turning a third of it to blood.

Scientific Interpretation: This is a very direct description of a major asteroid impact in the ocean. A large object hitting the ocean would be devastating.

The "blazing" part is a reference to the entry of the object into the atmosphere.

The impact would create a massive tsunami and a gigantic plume of steam and superheated water. It would also throw millions of tons of sediment and iron-rich material into the atmosphere and ocean, which could give the water a reddish, bloody appearance.

This is a plausible scenario for the end of the world, and some people theorize that this "mountain" could be a rogue planet or a hypothetical celestial body. This is where the ideas you mentioned, like Planet X or Nibiru, sometimes come into play. It’s important to note, though, that the scientific community does not support the existence of these planets; they are part of a theory to try to explain some historical events.

3. The "Star" Named Wormwood The Vision: A star falls, poisons a third of the Earth's rivers and springs.

Scientific Interpretation: This could be a different type of celestial object: a comet.

Unlike asteroids, which are primarily rock and metal, comets are made of ice, dust, and frozen gases. They can also contain a variety of toxic compounds.

If a comet were to impact a continent, it could release these chemicals into the atmosphere and the water table. The "Wormwood" (a bitter herb) name would be a fitting description for a substance that poisons the water, making it "bitter" or undrinkable.

In summary, the visions in Revelation could be an observer's best attempt to describe a series of related, world-altering celestial events—specifically, a multi-faceted series of comet and asteroid impacts, with each impact causing a different type of devastation. They didn't have the scientific language to describe a global dust cloud or a comet's composition, but they could describe the horrifying effects they saw.

So all that super shit hitting the fan has to be going on before it's the end times "rapture" and these 144,000 get called up?

It depends on the specific theological view. The timing of the "rapture" in relation to the end-times calamities (the "super shit hitting the fan") is a major debate among Christians.

Here’s a breakdown of the main theories.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture This is a very popular view in some denominations. It holds that the rapture happens before the main period of end-times calamity, often called the Great Tribulation. In this scenario, believers would be removed from Earth and would not experience the "shit hitting the fan." The 144,000 in this view (often interpreted as a specific group of Jewish evangelists) would be sealed and do their work during the Tribulation, after the rapture has occurred. So, in this view, the 144,000 are on Earth during the calamities.

Mid- and Post-Tribulation Rapture These views hold that the rapture happens either in the middle or at the end of the Tribulation. Believers would have to endure the calamities and persecution along with everyone else. The sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation happens after the first few judgments are opened. This timing suggests that they are on Earth and protected by a divine seal during these turbulent times.

The 144,000 are on Earth for the Calamities Regardless of the rapture theory, the biblical account in Revelation places the sealing of the 144,000 explicitly during the time of tribulation. In Revelation 7, this group is sealed by an angel after the first six seals of judgment are opened. So, in that narrative, yes, they are on Earth and are part of the unfolding drama of the "super shit hitting the fan."

[continued in part 6]

[part 6]

ok so these guys get called up before all this celestial calamities, eh?

According to one of the most widely held views, especially in many evangelical denominations, yes.

In the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory, the rapture—the "calling up" of believers—is seen as happening before the seven-year period of severe global calamities begins.

The idea is that God removes His faithful followers from the Earth so they are not present for the coming judgment and devastation. So, in that specific interpretation, the believers are gone before all the celestial calamities you mentioned start hitting.

and then.. isn't it like.. whoops weren't a bunch of people supposed to dissapear or only those 144,000 vanish

That's a very common point of confusion because the two ideas are often discussed together, but they are generally viewed as two distinct events.

Here's the key difference:

The Rapture: The rapture is the event where a "bunch of people" are said to disappear. According to the belief, this would be the instantaneous vanishing of all true Christian believers, both those alive and those who have died. This would be a massive, global event involving millions, if not billions, of people.

The 144,000: This group is not the group that vanishes in the rapture. In many views, the 144,000 are a very specific group of individuals who are on Earth after the rapture takes place. They are sealed by God for a specific purpose—to serve as evangelists during the period of tribulation.

So, the sequence would be: a "bunch of people" vanish in the rapture, and then the 144,000 are on Earth and get sealed for their job. It's not the same group of people.

oh so the bad people vanish and it's only the 144,000 left on earth.. and this would be before the rapture with the celestial calamities?

No, that's not quite right. It's actually the other way around.

In the pre-tribulation rapture theory we've been discussing:

The Rapture Occurs First: The "good people"—the believers—are the ones who vanish from Earth. The non-believers are left behind.

The 144,000 are on Earth: The 144,000 are a specific group that is present on Earth after the rapture, along with everyone else who was left behind. Their purpose is to be sealed and go on a mission during the calamities.

Then the Calamities Begin: The celestial calamities and all the other major "end-times" events happen after the rapture has taken place. The people left on Earth, including the 144,000, would witness and live through these events.

but you'd have this vanishing of the 144,000.. yeah but that's not many from the population, so you might not notice it too much, right.

To be clear, according to the belief, the 144,000 do not vanish.

The group that vanishes is the much larger body of believers in an event called the rapture.

If a massive number of people—millions or even billions—were to disappear simultaneously from all over the world, it would be a globally catastrophic event that would be impossible to miss. There would be cars crashing, planes falling out of the sky, and chaos everywhere.

The 144,000 are a very specific group who are thought to be sealed after that event, and they remain on Earth during the calamities that follow.

ok so the bad people are the ones who'd vanish.. they won't be around when there's all this celestial calamities?

No, that's not what the belief holds. It's the opposite.

In the rapture theory, the good people (the believers) are the ones who vanish. The bad people (the non-believers) are left behind on Earth to experience the celestial calamities and the other end-times events.

ok you said "In the rapture theory, the good people (the believers) are the ones who vanish."

But I just said before.. "but you'd have this vanishing of the 144,000.. yeah but that's not many from the population, so you might not notice it too much, right."

Those good people aren't supposed to experience everything blowing up

This is a very important point, and it gets to the heart of the misunderstanding. Let's break down the two groups clearly.

Group 1: The "Good People" (All Believers) Who they are: This is the large, global body of all Christian believers.

What happens to them: According to the rapture theory, they are the ones who vanish from Earth.

Their fate: They are the group that is spared from experiencing the celestial calamities and the other end-times judgments.

Group 2: The 144,000 Who they are: This is a much smaller, specific group of people.

What happens to them: They do not vanish in the rapture. They remain on Earth.

Their fate: They are explicitly present on Earth during the calamities. They are not spared from witnessing them, but are instead divinely protected to do their work.

So, you're right that "good people" are not supposed to experience everything blowing up, but that belief applies only to the first group—the people in the rapture. The 144,000 are a different group entirely, and they are a part of the events that happen after the vanishing.

ok so you understand why I was confused, right. Don't you think that's odd the 144,000 are there to experience this total shit hitting the fan with everything blowing up all over the place

That's a very logical question, and you're right to be confused; it's a distinction that can seem odd on the surface. If the goal is to spare people from the calamities, why would this one specific group be left behind to experience them?

The theological explanation for this goes back to the purpose of the 144,000. They are not left behind by accident or as an oversight.

Their presence is considered to be by design, for a specific and very important mission:

To be Witnesses and Evangelists: The 144,000 are believed to be a group of people sealed by God to preach the Gospel to the rest of the world that was left behind after the rapture. Their presence is seen as a final, powerful opportunity for people to repent and turn to God in the midst of the chaos.

Divine Protection: They are not left to fend for themselves. The biblical text states that they are "sealed" by God on their foreheads. This is interpreted as a form of divine protection that allows them to survive the judgments and fulfill their mission, even when a large portion of the world is being destroyed.

So, while it seems odd, their presence is meant to show God's continued grace and mercy, even in the midst of His judgment. They are there to give people a final chance.

I thought it's supposed to be the bad people who are still here who get punished with everything blowing up

You're right. That's a core part of the belief—the calamities are a form of punishment for those who rejected God and were left behind.

The way that's reconciled with the presence of the 144,000 is to see their situation differently. They aren't there to be punished. They are there as witnesses and messengers.

Think of it this way: the end-times are seen as a period of judgment where people who have chosen to reject God are given a taste of the consequences. In the midst of that chaos and punishment, the 144,000 are a living, breathing testament to God's continued mercy. They are divinely protected to go into the "punishment zone" to offer a way out to anyone who will listen.

So, the punishment is for the bad people, and the 144,000 are the ones who are on a mission to save them from it.

But it sounds like you had this other group, of "good guys" who believed in yahweh.. that are besides the 144,000.. and all those kind of like good guys who didn't make the cut as the 144,000.. they vanished and went up to heaven, right.. but they're not the "really good guys" who made the cut as the 144k. So they still kind of got "saved", right.

You've hit on a core distinction that is central to this particular end-times theory. You're exactly right.

In this belief system, there are two distinct groups of "good guys," and they get saved in different ways, or for different purposes:

The "Good Guys" who Vanish: This group is made up of all the believers from all over the world. They are considered "saved" because of their faith, and they are spared from the coming judgments. Their salvation is expressed by them being "called up" to heaven in the rapture. You could say they are the general population of the saved.

The "Really Good Guys" (The 144,000): This is a small, specific, and "elite" group. They are also saved, but they are chosen for a unique mission. They don't vanish with the others; instead, they are given a special purpose to preach to the people who were left behind.

So, your intuition is correct: all the believers are saved, but the 144,000 are a special group who have a different, active role to play during the end times. They are not more "saved," but they have a unique and critical job.

What goes on with all these bad people who were left behind and everything's blowing up. And all this stuff there.. like blood oceans or something. They're not so bad that they go to hell though, right.. Well.. what's going on there with who goes to hell. Sounds like that's those angels who quit workin for him like Lucifer.

That's a very a powerful question that gets to the very core of the end-times narrative. You're trying to figure out if there's any hope for the people left behind, and if their fate is sealed like the angels'.

Here's how that's viewed:

The Fate of the People Left Behind While the calamities are a form of punishment, they are not seen as the final act of damnation. The "blood oceans" and other horrors you mentioned are understood as God's judgments on a world that rejected Him. However, this period is also considered a time of final opportunity.

Final Chance: The entire purpose of the 144,000 being on Earth is to give these people—who were left behind—one last chance to repent and be saved. In this view, the calamities might cause people to realize their need for God and turn to the message the 144,000 are preaching.

A Great Multitude: The Book of Revelation mentions a "great multitude" from every nation, who came "out of the great tribulation" and have been "washed... in the blood of the Lamb." This is interpreted by many to mean that a great number of people who were left behind will actually get saved during this period.

Who Goes to Hell? In this theological view, "going to hell" is not based on how "bad" a person is in a relative sense. It's about whether they have accepted God's offer of salvation. The people who go to hell are those who have lived and died without accepting God's grace, regardless of whether they seemed "not so bad" to other people.

The Difference Between People and Angels You're right, the angels who quit are seen as being completely damned, with no hope. The key distinction is that mercy was not offered to the angels, but it is offered to humanity. The people left behind still have a chance to be saved, even in the final moments. The angels' rebellion was a final act of will, while a person's life is a journey with many opportunities for repentance.

Jeez.. But then in this movie.. lucifer and his crew there.. they got let out later on, eh.. it's like this "cycle"?

You're bringing up a very specific part of the end-times timeline, but the movie's portrayal of a "cycle" isn't what the Bible describes. The theological view is that Lucifer and his crew do get let out, but it's not a repeating cycle. It's a one-time, final event.

According to the Book of Revelation:

A Thousand-Year Binding: After the calamities and the final battle, the devil (Satan) is bound and thrown into a pit for a thousand years. This is a period of peace on Earth.

A Short Release: After the thousand years are complete, the devil is released "for a short time." He then goes out to deceive the nations one last time and gathers an army for a final battle against God's people.

Final, Permanent Damnation: This final battle is brief and decisive. The devil and his forces are then permanently and eternally "thrown into the lake of burning sulfur," where they are tormented forever.

So, while he does get "let out later on," it's not a cycle. It's a single, temporary release that leads to his final and eternal damnation.

so we're in this cycle where he's let loose or is he still down there?

Based on that theological timeline, we are not in that period. He is not currently let loose.

According to that view, Satan's binding and subsequent release happens after all the end-times calamities and the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Christ on Earth. Since those events have not happened yet, Satan is not yet bound in the pit, and therefore has not been released from it.

The entire sequence you've asked about is part of a linear series of events that has not yet begun.

He hasn't been let out before, eh? It's not like a repeating cycle where he gets let out?

No, according to the biblical timeline, it is not a repeating cycle. He has not been let out before.

The events described—his binding for a thousand years and his subsequent release—are a one-time, future event that has not yet happened. It is the final part of a linear series of judgments, not a cycle that repeats.

ok so after all this stuff.. you have this sort of heaven type scenario for 1000 years.. then Lucifer and his crew get let out? For how long?

That's exactly right. After the calamities, there is a thousand-year period often referred to as the "Millennium" or the "heaven type scenario."

According to the Book of Revelation (20:7), after those thousand years are over, the devil is released "for a short time." The text doesn't give an exact length, but it's understood to be very brief, and its purpose is to be a final test and a prelude to his ultimate and permanent defeat.

[continued in part 7]

[part 7]

Don't you think it's odd how yahweh doesn't just exterminate lucifer and have him be dead and not exist, if he doesn't like him that much?

That's a profound and very common philosophical question. The idea that a powerful being would simply not allow a troublesome creature to exist seems like a straightforward solution.

The theological explanation for why God doesn't just "exterminate" Lucifer and the other fallen angels has to do with the nature of divine justice and God's relationship to His creation.

Here's the reasoning behind it:

Divine Justice: In this view, God's justice is not just about removing a problem; it's about giving a consequence that is fitting for the crime. The sin of Lucifer and the fallen angels was a direct, willful rebellion against an infinite and eternal God. The argument is that the consequence of this sin must also be eternal. Simply making them "not exist" might not be seen as a just punishment for such an immense cosmic crime.

The Nature of Being: From a theological perspective, angels and human souls are created as eternal beings. To simply un-create them would be seen as a contradiction to their very nature. Their existence, once granted by God, is permanent, and the consequences of their choices are also permanent.

A Permanent Example: The fate of Lucifer and his crew serves as an eternal, public example to the rest of creation—both for humanity and the angels who remained faithful—of the consequences of rebelling against God. Their perpetual existence in damnation is a permanent testimony to the seriousness of sin and the ultimate triumph of God's authority. Annihilation would, in a sense, erase that lesson from history.

well.. let's get back to those celestial events that are clues the rapture is going on. It seems pretty major and like it happens all of a sudden? Nothing like oh they see something going on in the sky for a while first?

That's a great point, and it's a key distinction in the end-times timeline. The answer to your question is different for each of those two events.

The Rapture The rapture is described as happening suddenly, without any warning signs on Earth or in the sky. The Bible uses the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" to describe its speed. In this view, the very point is that it's an instantaneous, completely unexpected event. There would be no celestial buildup or slow signs leading up to it.

The Celestial Signs The celestial events you mentioned—the sun turning dark, the stars falling, etc.—are part of the Tribulation period, which is a time of God's judgment on Earth. In the view we've been discussing, this period happens after the rapture.

So, while the rapture is a single, sudden event, the celestial calamities are a series of devastating events that unfold over a period of time. The Book of Revelation describes them happening as different judgments are released, so there would be a lot of "something going on in the sky" for a while, but it would be happening after the rapture.

yeah wasn't there something about when it happens you'd have like no time to deal with it.. where they were in the middle of something, eh.. and it was like you gotta drop what's going on..

You're thinking of a very well-known image used to describe the suddenness of the event.

That idea comes directly from the Bible, specifically from Jesus's teachings about the end times. He used everyday scenarios to emphasize that it would happen without warning and give people no time to prepare.

In Matthew 24:40-41, he says, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

The point of these examples is that people will be going about their normal, routine lives when the event suddenly occurs, and there will be no time to stop what they're doing or to get ready.

[end of chit-chat]

[Part 1]

what's the criteria for this 144,000 that 'll get saved at the rapture. lol.. seems like you gotta weed out a hell of a lot of them, eh? Who makes the cut.. What you gotta do is observe how yahweh operates and his past behavior. Well, you had the flood, eh.. where only noah and his family was left.. so that's pretty harsh. What about Lucifer.. I think he quit on his own and didn't get kicked out, eh. But you also had a third of the angels who quit.. I think that was 33M. So that's a lot. But I think they quit and didn't get "fired".

Your question touches on some very specific and complex topics from a theological perspective, particularly from a Christian and Jehovah's Witness viewpoint, though there are variations across different denominations. The number 144,000 is mentioned in the Book of Revelation in the Bible, and different Christian groups have different interpretations of its meaning.

Here is a breakdown of the criteria and interpretations you've mentioned:

The 144,000 The number 144,000 is found in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1-5.

Revelation 7:4-8 describes "144,000 of all the tribes of the sons of Israel" who are "sealed." It then lists twelve tribes, with 12,000 from each.

Revelation 14:1-5 describes the 144,000 standing with the Lamb (Jesus) on Mount Zion. It says they "have been redeemed from the earth," are "virgins," and "follow the Lamb wherever he goes."

Interpretations of the 144,000:

Literal Interpretation: Some groups, most notably Jehovah's Witnesses, interpret this number as a literal 144,000 individuals. They believe these are a specific group of faithful Christians who will be chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. For them, this group is an "anointed" class, and they are the only ones who partake in the Memorial of Christ's death (the Lord's Supper). All other faithful Christians are considered to be part of the "great crowd" who will live in a paradise on earth.

Symbolic Interpretation: The majority of other Christian denominations, including many Protestants and Catholics, view the number 144,000 as symbolic.

The number 12 is often seen as a number of completeness, representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles.

The calculation 12×12×1,000=144,000 can be seen as representing the fullness or entirety of God's people.

In this view, the 144,000 represent all believers throughout history—the complete and entire body of the Church—both from the Jewish people and the Gentiles, who are "sealed" by God.

Other Points You Raised The Flood and Noah: The story of Noah's Ark (Genesis chapters 6-9) is a narrative about God's judgment on humanity for its wickedness. The "saved" were Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives—eight people in total. The biblical account states that God chose to spare this family because "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" and was "a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time." This is not generally seen as a precedent for the number of people who will be "saved" in the end times, but rather as an example of God's judgment and his preservation of a righteous remnant.

Lucifer and the Fallen Angels: The idea of Lucifer (often identified with Satan) and a third of the angels being cast out of heaven is a widely held belief in Christianity. This concept is often derived from passages like Luke 10:18 ("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven") and Revelation 12:7-9, which speaks of a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan) and his angels, and they were "hurled down to the earth." The "third of the stars" being swept down by the dragon is a common interpretation of Revelation 12:4. The idea of them "quitting" or "being fired" is a modern metaphor applied to a biblical narrative of rebellion and judgment. The traditional view is that they were in direct rebellion against God and were subsequently cast out as a punishment.

ok so you got "It then lists twelve tribes, with 12,000 from each." Who are these 12 tribes these days.. I guess it'd be descendents of those bloodlines?

Then you say "virgins".. so they gotta be virgins?

Then the Noah stuff.. "a righteous man".. what's that even mean to be "righteous", eh. Lots of this, is like.. you gotta follow the 12 commandments. I think things are probably different than the criteria with the Noah stuff.

The next part.. "a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan) and his angels, and they were "hurled down to the earth."  What the hell is going on here.. sounds like a fight. What the hell were they trying to do.. like a riot trying to do like some countries in the past that got over-thrown. How the hell would they even try to take over Yahweh's "job". You need to be able to do what it does.. you know what I mean. Lucifer just doesn't have the "talent" or like whatever.. you know what I mean. What were they gonna do.. kill off whoever was left. If you kill yahweh.. like where even is he.. is it like this "dude" with the white beard. I don't think so. Then you got him tuned into the Akashic records where he's spying on everybody, so he can determine his gameplan. How would Lucifer even run that. I don't think so. Well, the cabal these days are trying to get to that with cyber tech stuff eventually. At least they're trying to do something. But Lucifer.. he doesn't have the "power" to take over Yahweh's job. Sounds like they got their ass kicked though.. what went on there. Betcha it was yahweh who "hurled them down to earth" and wherever they got banished too.. sounds like he got locked in the ice down underground, eh.

Your questions dig deeper into some of the most profound and debated aspects of these biblical narratives. Let's break down each of the points you've raised based on theological and symbolic interpretations.

The 12 Tribes You asked about the identity of the 12 tribes of Israel today and if it's based on bloodlines.

Theological and Historical View: The identity of the 12 tribes is a complex issue. Historically, ten of the twelve tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel were exiled by the Assyrians and largely assimilated, losing their distinct tribal identities. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin (along with the priestly tribe of Levi) formed the Southern Kingdom and survived, but their tribal distinctions also blurred over time, especially after the Babylonian exile. Today, Jewish identity is primarily based on matrilineal descent or conversion, not on tribal lineage.

Interpretations in Revelation:

Literal Interpretation: Groups that take the number 144,000 literally, like Jehovah's Witnesses, often interpret the list of tribes in Revelation as symbolic or spiritual rather than a literal bloodline count today. They believe the names represent the spiritual Israel of God's chosen people in the Christian era.

Symbolic Interpretation: The symbolic view, held by most Christian denominations, sees the list of tribes as representing the totality of God's people, both Jewish and Gentile, as part of the new spiritual Israel. The names themselves are a nod to the historical people of God, but the ultimate meaning is of a complete and redeemed community from all nations. So, no, it's not about tracking ancient bloodlines today.

The "Virgins" You questioned whether the criteria for the 144,000 literally means they must be virgins.

Symbolic Interpretation: In this context, the term "virgins" is almost universally understood symbolically. It doesn't mean a person must be a virgin in the physical sense to be saved. Instead, it refers to:

Purity and Undivided Devotion: The "virgins" are those who have not "defiled themselves with women" (Revelation 14:4). This is interpreted as a metaphor for spiritual purity—they have not engaged in spiritual fornication or idolatry by worshiping other gods or following false teachings. They have remained spiritually pure and have given their undivided loyalty to God and Jesus.

Following the Lamb: They "follow the Lamb wherever he goes," which signifies complete obedience and loyalty to Jesus Christ.

"Righteousness" You asked what it means to be a "righteous man" like Noah.

Biblical Meaning: In the Bible, righteousness is not just about following a set of rules perfectly. It's about being in right relationship with God. For Noah, this meant his character and actions were in alignment with God's will, even when the rest of the world was not. He was obedient to God's commands, which is why he built the ark.

A Broader View: While the 10 Commandments are a major component of living a righteous life in the Old Testament, the concept of righteousness extends beyond them. It involves faith, justice, compassion, and humility. In the Christian tradition, people are often seen as unable to achieve perfect righteousness on their own, and it is given to them as a gift through their faith in Jesus. The criteria for salvation in the end times are thus seen differently than the criteria for Noah's time, as they are centered on faith in Christ.

The War in Heaven and Lucifer's Motives You've raised some profound questions about the war in heaven: what were they trying to do, how could they hope to "overthrow" Yahweh, and what was the outcome?

Theological Interpretation of the Rebellion: The rebellion of Satan and the fallen angels is not typically portrayed as a physical attempt to "overthrow" God in a literal coup. Theologically, it's understood as a rebellion against God's authority and a rejection of His will.

Pride and Envy: The traditional explanation is that Lucifer (the "light-bearer") was a high-ranking and beautiful angel who became filled with pride. He desired to be "like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14). This was not a desire to physically "kill" God, but rather to usurp His divine authority, honor, and position. Satan's motive wasn't about a physical power struggle, but a metaphysical one—he wanted to be worshiped and revered as God is.

The "Talent" Argument: Your point about Lucifer not having the "talent" is a good one. He and the angels are created beings; they do not possess the infinite power, knowledge, and omnipresence of God. This is why their rebellion was doomed from the start. They couldn't possibly "win." The story is not about a close fight; it's about the swift and decisive judgment of God on those who rebel against him.

The Result of the War: Revelation 12:7-9 makes it clear that the battle was decisive. Michael and his angels were victorious, and the dragon and his angels were "hurled down to the earth." This is the core of the traditional belief. The rebellion was quelled, and the rebellious angels were banished from God's presence in heaven. Your idea of being "locked in the ice down underground" is not a common biblical interpretation, but it does reflect the idea of them being imprisoned or contained in a lower realm, separate from God's heavenly presence.

The "Cabal" and "Cyber Tech" Idea: You've brought up a modern comparison, which is interesting. The idea of a group using technology to gain ultimate control and surveillance ("Akashic records," "spying") is a common theme in conspiracy theories. From a theological perspective, this is seen as a modern manifestation of the same ancient sin: the desire of created beings to usurp God's power and position, to become as gods themselves. This is why the biblical narrative of the Tower of Babel is often interpreted as a similar act of human arrogance.

[continued in part 2]

[part 2]

so.. who the hell is gonna get picked.. like what types of characters. The "brown-nosers" who are totally into the religious thing? You know what I mean.. like the bible thumpers who know every fucking verse number and stuff. Yeah.. plus you gotta be "righteous". That's gonna be some hell of a lot of "weeding out" cause you're gonna have more than 144k.

Then you got these guys who do "good deeds" try try and get points in heaven, eh. Thinking they'll rank higher or something. Are they genuine though or are they doing this so they don't go to hell. Well, yahweh can check the akashic records, eh. What they even think behind closed doors. What do you got on the criteria for who's gonna get picked.

This is a very direct and a bit cynical take on the criteria for who "gets picked." Your questions about "brown-nosers," "bible thumpers," and people doing good deeds for a reward get to the heart of a major theological debate within Christianity: the relationship between faith, works, and sincerity.

Let's break down the criteria from a Christian perspective, addressing your specific points:

The Criteria for Being "Picked" The general Christian view is that salvation is not a reward for "brown-nosing" or a perfect performance. The key distinction is between salvation (being "saved" or having eternal life) and rewards (the blessings or "crowns" a person may receive in heaven).

Salvation is by Faith, Not Works: The most prevalent belief in many Christian denominations, particularly Protestantism, is that a person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible states in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This means that no amount of good deeds, rule-following, or "being a good person" is enough to earn a place in heaven, because everyone has fallen short of God's perfect standard. Salvation is a free gift received by believing in Jesus's death and resurrection as the payment for one's sins.

Works as Evidence of Faith: This doesn't mean good deeds are irrelevant. The Book of James says, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). This is often explained as a cause-and-effect relationship: genuine faith will naturally lead to a transformed life and good deeds. So, someone who truly has faith will demonstrate it through their actions, not because they are trying to "earn points," but because their heart has been changed. The good deeds are a result of salvation, not a cause of it. This directly addresses your point about people doing good deeds to "rank higher." A person with genuine faith does good out of love for God and others, not out of a fear of hell or a desire for reward.

The "Brown-Noser" and "Bible Thumper" Your description of "bible thumpers who know every fucking verse number" raises a question about sincerity. From a Christian standpoint, a deep knowledge of the Bible and passionate religious practice are not the criteria for salvation. The key is the state of the heart.

Sincerity of Heart: According to Christian belief, God's judgment is based on the heart and intentions, not just outward actions. The "Akashic records" you mentioned, while not a biblical term, aligns with the biblical idea that God is omniscient and knows every thought and motive, even those "behind closed doors." This means a person's faith must be genuine and from the heart. A person who outwardly follows all the rules but does so with a proud, self-righteous, or insincere heart would not be considered "righteous" in God's eyes. This is a recurring theme in the gospels where Jesus critiques the Pharisees for their external piety while their hearts were far from God.

The 144,000 and "Weeding Out" Your observation that there must be a "hell of a lot of weeding out" is valid, especially given the various interpretations of the 144,000.

Literal vs. Symbolic: As discussed before, if the number is taken literally (as by Jehovah's Witnesses), it implies a very small, exclusive group, which would indeed require significant "weeding out." The criteria would be based on a person being part of that specific "anointed" class and remaining faithful to their specific beliefs.

Symbolic View: In the more common symbolic interpretation, the 144,000 is not a number to be weeded down to, but rather a symbolic representation of the entirety of God's redeemed people. In this view, "the great multitude that no one could count" (Revelation 7:9) stands alongside the 144,000, representing all the saved people from every nation. In this context, the "weeding out" is a judgment between those who have genuine faith in Christ and those who do not.

Ultimately, the criteria for being "picked" in mainstream Christian theology is not about outward performance or having a perfect record. It's about a person's faith and the genuine transformation of the heart that follows.

How about hangin out with yahweh.. it tells you a bit about what it'd be like, in "heaven", eh. Well, let's look at this bodyguards. The seraphim, ophanim and cherubim. Which one was it where they'd say "holy holy holy" all day long. And then "praise god". Let's get into that for a bit.

Your curiosity about the heavenly "bodyguards" of Yahweh touches on some of the most striking and mysterious imagery in the Bible. The creatures you mentioned—Seraphim, Cherubim, and Ophanim—are described in a few key biblical passages, and their descriptions are far from the typical depictions in modern art.

Let's look at each one, focusing on their roles and the specific actions you've asked about.

The Seraphim These are the ones who say "Holy, holy, holy" all day long.

Who they are: The Seraphim are described in the Book of Isaiah, specifically in chapter 6, when the prophet has a vision of God's throne room. The Hebrew word "seraphim" means "the fiery ones" or "burning ones." This name implies a connection to fire, divine love, and purification.

Their appearance: They are described as having six wings. With two, they cover their faces, as a sign of reverence and humility before God's overwhelming glory. With two, they cover their feet, also a sign of respect. With the final two, they fly.

Their role: Their primary role is to worship God continuously. In Isaiah's vision, they cry out to one another, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory." This triple repetition of "holy" is a way of emphasizing God's absolute and perfect holiness. One of them also performs a purification ritual for Isaiah, taking a burning coal from the altar and touching his lips to cleanse him of his sin so he can speak for God.

The Cherubim Cherubim are a different type of celestial being with a variety of roles. They are not the chubby, winged babies of popular imagination.

Their appearance: Cherubim are described as having complex, composite forms. In Ezekiel's vision (Ezekiel 1 and 10), they have four faces: a human, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. They also have four wings and human-like hands under their wings.

Their role:

Guardians: Their first appearance is in Genesis 3, where God places them at the entrance to the Garden of Eden with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

Throne-Bearers: Throughout the Old Testament, God is often described as "enthroned upon the cherubim." In Ezekiel's vision, they are part of a mobile throne-chariot for God. They are a visible representation of God's majesty and glory, and they serve as His divine attendants.

The Ophanim These are the most mysterious and are closely linked to the Cherubim in Ezekiel's vision.

Their appearance: The Ophanim are described in Ezekiel 1 as a "wheel within a wheel," covered in eyes. They are part of the divine throne-chariot, and they move with the Cherubim.

Their role: The Ophanim function as the "wheels" of God's mobile throne. The imagery of a "wheel within a wheel" suggests that they can move in any direction without turning, which is a powerful symbol of God's omnipresence and sovereignty—He can move and act anywhere at any time. The "eyes" all over the wheels symbolize God's omniscience, meaning He sees and knows everything.

In short, each of these beings serves a distinct purpose in the heavenly court, but they all ultimately exist to magnify God's power, holiness, and glory. The Seraphim are the worshipers who proclaim God's holiness, the Cherubim are the guardians and throne-bearers, and the Ophanim are the mysterious, all-seeing wheels of His divine presence.

which was the one with the eyes there.. that's more like "surveillance" around the area, in case somebody tries to sneak up on him

You're right, that detail of being "full of eyes" is a powerful and unsettling image. The beings you're referring to are the Ophanim (also known as the "wheels") and the Cherubim in the vision of the prophet Ezekiel.

Here's a breakdown of the imagery, including your take on it as "surveillance":

The Eyes on the Ophanim (Wheels) In the Book of Ezekiel, the prophet describes seeing a vision of God's throne. Central to this vision are four living creatures (the Cherubim) and four wheels (the Ophanim) that move with them.

Ezekiel 1:18 states that the rims of the wheels "were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around."

Ezekiel 10:12 also describes the Cherubim's bodies, backs, hands, and wings as being "full of eyes all around," as were the wheels.

Your interpretation of the eyes as a form of "surveillance" to prevent anyone from "sneaking up on him" is a very modern way of looking at it, but it actually aligns with the traditional theological meaning of the imagery.

The Symbolic Meaning of the Eyes The eyes are not just a bizarre visual detail; they are a powerful symbol of God's nature. They represent:

Omniscience: The eyes symbolize God's all-seeing and all-knowing nature. Nothing can be hidden from God. This is the ultimate "surveillance"—He doesn't just see what is happening, but He also knows the thoughts, intentions, and motives of every being. The eyes on the wheels suggest that God's actions and movements (represented by the wheels) are guided by perfect knowledge and awareness.

Vigilance: The presence of eyes all around the beings and the wheels signifies a constant, unwavering watchfulness. This is not about a physical threat to God, as He is all-powerful and beyond harm. Instead, it underscores His supreme authority and awareness over all of creation. It's a reminder that He is in full control and sees every detail of His divine plan unfolding.

So, while your use of the term "surveillance" is a modern one, the underlying concept is very similar: a being with perfect, all-encompassing sight that ensures nothing can happen without its knowledge. It's a way of visually representing a power that is far beyond human comprehension.

ok so the type that'd say "holy holy holy" praise god all day long there.. sounds like it was just one of the 3 types of bodyguards

You are correct in that the "holy, holy, holy" part is specifically associated with one type of celestial being, not all three. That praise is the distinguishing feature of the Seraphim.

To clarify, based on the biblical descriptions:

Seraphim are the ones who endlessly chant "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory" (Isaiah 6:3). Their primary role is constant, fiery worship and purification.

Cherubim are guardians of God's holiness and serve as His throne-bearers.

Ophanim are the all-seeing, interconnected wheels of God's mobile throne-chariot.

While all of these beings are part of the divine court and are engaged in glorifying God in different ways, the specific, repeating verbal praise of "holy, holy, holy" is uniquely attributed to the Seraphim in the vision of Isaiah.

oh yeah.. wasn't lucifer a cherubim and he had a musical instrument built into his body.. like a harp or something

You've brought up a very specific and fascinating detail that is a popular theological interpretation of Lucifer's pre-fall state. The idea that Lucifer was a Cherub and had musical instruments built into his body comes from a reading of the Book of Ezekiel.

Here's the breakdown of this interpretation:

Lucifer as an "Anointed Cherub" The main passage that gives rise to this belief is Ezekiel 28:12-19, which is a lamentation against the King of Tyre. However, many biblical scholars and theologians believe this passage is speaking about two different subjects at once: the human king of Tyre and the spiritual power behind him, which they identify as Satan.

Ezekiel 28:14 states, "You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there."

This verse describes a created being of immense importance, who had a role of "covering" or protecting God's holiness. Because this description goes far beyond what could be said of a mere human king, it is widely interpreted as a description of Satan before his fall. The title "anointed cherub" suggests he was a highly ranked angel, possibly the highest of the Cherubim.

The Musical Instruments This is where your point about the harp or other instruments comes in.

Ezekiel 28:13 says, "You were in Eden, the garden of God... the workmanship of your timbrels and your pipes was prepared in you on the day you were created."

The Hebrew words translated as "timbrels" and "pipes" refer to types of musical instruments (like small drums and flutes).

The phrase "prepared in you" has led to the interpretation that these instruments were not something Lucifer carried, but were actually integrated into his very being at creation. This idea suggests that he was created as a being whose very function was to produce beautiful music, possibly to lead the praise and worship in heaven.

Summary of the Belief The theory you've heard is a valid and common interpretation, particularly in some evangelical Christian circles. It posits that before his rebellion, Satan was:

A Cherub: A high-ranking, powerful celestial being with a key role in God's heavenly court.

A Musical Being: Created with the ability to produce music, perhaps as the head of worship, which would have made his eventual fall due to pride even more tragic.

This interpretation sees his rebellion as a perversion of the very purpose for which he was created. Instead of using his gifts to bring glory to God, he desired that glory for himself.

[continued in part 3]

religion worries about rapture

a) Rapture/raptus (to carry off) + religion/religare (to bind fast)...if form (life) within flow (inception towards death) binds itself, then it gets carries off faster.

b) Worry/wergh/wer (to turn)...if a being (life) binds itself to be carried off faster, then it turned from origin (inception) towards outcome (death).

c) What's the opposite of rapture (to carry off)? To repent/repel/resist...which requires the use of ones free will of choice.

Religion implies entering bondage by free will of choice.

[part 8]

Add-on.. was going through my old posts earlier today looking for something and this kind of ties in.

"In that World hierarchy pyramid, infographic, the 1st triad of highest ranking angels are the Seraphim, Cherubim and Ophanim. These are bizarre creatures. I'm there.. let's find some animations of them. Found 3D little clips but they were separate so I put them together in a vid. 1 minute 15 sec."

https://cdn.videy.co/nFRz1yhD.mp4

You see what his bodyguards look like.