[part 6]

ok so these guys get called up before all this celestial calamities, eh?

According to one of the most widely held views, especially in many evangelical denominations, yes.

In the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory, the rapture—the "calling up" of believers—is seen as happening before the seven-year period of severe global calamities begins.

The idea is that God removes His faithful followers from the Earth so they are not present for the coming judgment and devastation. So, in that specific interpretation, the believers are gone before all the celestial calamities you mentioned start hitting.

and then.. isn't it like.. whoops weren't a bunch of people supposed to dissapear or only those 144,000 vanish

That's a very common point of confusion because the two ideas are often discussed together, but they are generally viewed as two distinct events.

Here's the key difference:

The Rapture: The rapture is the event where a "bunch of people" are said to disappear. According to the belief, this would be the instantaneous vanishing of all true Christian believers, both those alive and those who have died. This would be a massive, global event involving millions, if not billions, of people.

The 144,000: This group is not the group that vanishes in the rapture. In many views, the 144,000 are a very specific group of individuals who are on Earth after the rapture takes place. They are sealed by God for a specific purpose—to serve as evangelists during the period of tribulation.

So, the sequence would be: a "bunch of people" vanish in the rapture, and then the 144,000 are on Earth and get sealed for their job. It's not the same group of people.

oh so the bad people vanish and it's only the 144,000 left on earth.. and this would be before the rapture with the celestial calamities?

No, that's not quite right. It's actually the other way around.

In the pre-tribulation rapture theory we've been discussing:

The Rapture Occurs First: The "good people"—the believers—are the ones who vanish from Earth. The non-believers are left behind.

The 144,000 are on Earth: The 144,000 are a specific group that is present on Earth after the rapture, along with everyone else who was left behind. Their purpose is to be sealed and go on a mission during the calamities.

Then the Calamities Begin: The celestial calamities and all the other major "end-times" events happen after the rapture has taken place. The people left on Earth, including the 144,000, would witness and live through these events.

but you'd have this vanishing of the 144,000.. yeah but that's not many from the population, so you might not notice it too much, right.

To be clear, according to the belief, the 144,000 do not vanish.

The group that vanishes is the much larger body of believers in an event called the rapture.

If a massive number of people—millions or even billions—were to disappear simultaneously from all over the world, it would be a globally catastrophic event that would be impossible to miss. There would be cars crashing, planes falling out of the sky, and chaos everywhere.

The 144,000 are a very specific group who are thought to be sealed after that event, and they remain on Earth during the calamities that follow.

ok so the bad people are the ones who'd vanish.. they won't be around when there's all this celestial calamities?

No, that's not what the belief holds. It's the opposite.

In the rapture theory, the good people (the believers) are the ones who vanish. The bad people (the non-believers) are left behind on Earth to experience the celestial calamities and the other end-times events.

ok you said "In the rapture theory, the good people (the believers) are the ones who vanish."

But I just said before.. "but you'd have this vanishing of the 144,000.. yeah but that's not many from the population, so you might not notice it too much, right."

Those good people aren't supposed to experience everything blowing up

This is a very important point, and it gets to the heart of the misunderstanding. Let's break down the two groups clearly.

Group 1: The "Good People" (All Believers) Who they are: This is the large, global body of all Christian believers.

What happens to them: According to the rapture theory, they are the ones who vanish from Earth.

Their fate: They are the group that is spared from experiencing the celestial calamities and the other end-times judgments.

Group 2: The 144,000 Who they are: This is a much smaller, specific group of people.

What happens to them: They do not vanish in the rapture. They remain on Earth.

Their fate: They are explicitly present on Earth during the calamities. They are not spared from witnessing them, but are instead divinely protected to do their work.

So, you're right that "good people" are not supposed to experience everything blowing up, but that belief applies only to the first group—the people in the rapture. The 144,000 are a different group entirely, and they are a part of the events that happen after the vanishing.

ok so you understand why I was confused, right. Don't you think that's odd the 144,000 are there to experience this total shit hitting the fan with everything blowing up all over the place

That's a very logical question, and you're right to be confused; it's a distinction that can seem odd on the surface. If the goal is to spare people from the calamities, why would this one specific group be left behind to experience them?

The theological explanation for this goes back to the purpose of the 144,000. They are not left behind by accident or as an oversight.

Their presence is considered to be by design, for a specific and very important mission:

To be Witnesses and Evangelists: The 144,000 are believed to be a group of people sealed by God to preach the Gospel to the rest of the world that was left behind after the rapture. Their presence is seen as a final, powerful opportunity for people to repent and turn to God in the midst of the chaos.

Divine Protection: They are not left to fend for themselves. The biblical text states that they are "sealed" by God on their foreheads. This is interpreted as a form of divine protection that allows them to survive the judgments and fulfill their mission, even when a large portion of the world is being destroyed.

So, while it seems odd, their presence is meant to show God's continued grace and mercy, even in the midst of His judgment. They are there to give people a final chance.

I thought it's supposed to be the bad people who are still here who get punished with everything blowing up

You're right. That's a core part of the belief—the calamities are a form of punishment for those who rejected God and were left behind.

The way that's reconciled with the presence of the 144,000 is to see their situation differently. They aren't there to be punished. They are there as witnesses and messengers.

Think of it this way: the end-times are seen as a period of judgment where people who have chosen to reject God are given a taste of the consequences. In the midst of that chaos and punishment, the 144,000 are a living, breathing testament to God's continued mercy. They are divinely protected to go into the "punishment zone" to offer a way out to anyone who will listen.

So, the punishment is for the bad people, and the 144,000 are the ones who are on a mission to save them from it.

But it sounds like you had this other group, of "good guys" who believed in yahweh.. that are besides the 144,000.. and all those kind of like good guys who didn't make the cut as the 144,000.. they vanished and went up to heaven, right.. but they're not the "really good guys" who made the cut as the 144k. So they still kind of got "saved", right.

You've hit on a core distinction that is central to this particular end-times theory. You're exactly right.

In this belief system, there are two distinct groups of "good guys," and they get saved in different ways, or for different purposes:

The "Good Guys" who Vanish: This group is made up of all the believers from all over the world. They are considered "saved" because of their faith, and they are spared from the coming judgments. Their salvation is expressed by them being "called up" to heaven in the rapture. You could say they are the general population of the saved.

The "Really Good Guys" (The 144,000): This is a small, specific, and "elite" group. They are also saved, but they are chosen for a unique mission. They don't vanish with the others; instead, they are given a special purpose to preach to the people who were left behind.

So, your intuition is correct: all the believers are saved, but the 144,000 are a special group who have a different, active role to play during the end times. They are not more "saved," but they have a unique and critical job.

What goes on with all these bad people who were left behind and everything's blowing up. And all this stuff there.. like blood oceans or something. They're not so bad that they go to hell though, right.. Well.. what's going on there with who goes to hell. Sounds like that's those angels who quit workin for him like Lucifer.

That's a very a powerful question that gets to the very core of the end-times narrative. You're trying to figure out if there's any hope for the people left behind, and if their fate is sealed like the angels'.

Here's how that's viewed:

The Fate of the People Left Behind While the calamities are a form of punishment, they are not seen as the final act of damnation. The "blood oceans" and other horrors you mentioned are understood as God's judgments on a world that rejected Him. However, this period is also considered a time of final opportunity.

Final Chance: The entire purpose of the 144,000 being on Earth is to give these people—who were left behind—one last chance to repent and be saved. In this view, the calamities might cause people to realize their need for God and turn to the message the 144,000 are preaching.

A Great Multitude: The Book of Revelation mentions a "great multitude" from every nation, who came "out of the great tribulation" and have been "washed... in the blood of the Lamb." This is interpreted by many to mean that a great number of people who were left behind will actually get saved during this period.

Who Goes to Hell? In this theological view, "going to hell" is not based on how "bad" a person is in a relative sense. It's about whether they have accepted God's offer of salvation. The people who go to hell are those who have lived and died without accepting God's grace, regardless of whether they seemed "not so bad" to other people.

The Difference Between People and Angels You're right, the angels who quit are seen as being completely damned, with no hope. The key distinction is that mercy was not offered to the angels, but it is offered to humanity. The people left behind still have a chance to be saved, even in the final moments. The angels' rebellion was a final act of will, while a person's life is a journey with many opportunities for repentance.

Jeez.. But then in this movie.. lucifer and his crew there.. they got let out later on, eh.. it's like this "cycle"?

You're bringing up a very specific part of the end-times timeline, but the movie's portrayal of a "cycle" isn't what the Bible describes. The theological view is that Lucifer and his crew do get let out, but it's not a repeating cycle. It's a one-time, final event.

According to the Book of Revelation:

A Thousand-Year Binding: After the calamities and the final battle, the devil (Satan) is bound and thrown into a pit for a thousand years. This is a period of peace on Earth.

A Short Release: After the thousand years are complete, the devil is released "for a short time." He then goes out to deceive the nations one last time and gathers an army for a final battle against God's people.

Final, Permanent Damnation: This final battle is brief and decisive. The devil and his forces are then permanently and eternally "thrown into the lake of burning sulfur," where they are tormented forever.

So, while he does get "let out later on," it's not a cycle. It's a single, temporary release that leads to his final and eternal damnation.

so we're in this cycle where he's let loose or is he still down there?

Based on that theological timeline, we are not in that period. He is not currently let loose.

According to that view, Satan's binding and subsequent release happens after all the end-times calamities and the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Christ on Earth. Since those events have not happened yet, Satan is not yet bound in the pit, and therefore has not been released from it.

The entire sequence you've asked about is part of a linear series of events that has not yet begun.

He hasn't been let out before, eh? It's not like a repeating cycle where he gets let out?

No, according to the biblical timeline, it is not a repeating cycle. He has not been let out before.

The events described—his binding for a thousand years and his subsequent release—are a one-time, future event that has not yet happened. It is the final part of a linear series of judgments, not a cycle that repeats.

ok so after all this stuff.. you have this sort of heaven type scenario for 1000 years.. then Lucifer and his crew get let out? For how long?

That's exactly right. After the calamities, there is a thousand-year period often referred to as the "Millennium" or the "heaven type scenario."

According to the Book of Revelation (20:7), after those thousand years are over, the devil is released "for a short time." The text doesn't give an exact length, but it's understood to be very brief, and its purpose is to be a final test and a prelude to his ultimate and permanent defeat.

[continued in part 7]