Jesus acknowledged that the Jews were the descendants of Abraham, but that they weren’t the “children of Abraham” or the “children of God” anymore, but the “children of the devil”. Since Abraham is not their father, but the devil is, the promises that God gave to Abraham of those blessing Abrahams children being blessed does not apply to the Jews. They rejected Christ and are the children of the devil and not Abraham.
In John 8:37 Jesus said “I know you are Abraham’s descendants”.
in vs. 38, “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did.”
In vs 42, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God.
In vs 44, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.“
I already explained this in the most simplest terms. Let me be even more simpler.
The children of Abraham before Jesus were just biological descendants.
Now Jesus came and said the children of Abraham were not biological descendants but instead those who believed on him.
Now, the promises to the “children of Abraham” don’t apply to the biological descendants anymore. In other words, the biological descendants of Abraham don’t have the land as a god given right anymore.
Very much borderlining a Rule 1 violation. Be respectful, attack the argument not the person.
Please rephrase.
Literally called Jesus stupid, you are arguing with God here and not me.
In John 8:37 Jesus said “I know you are Abraham’s descendants”.
in vs. 38, “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did.”
In vs 42, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God.
In vs 44, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.“
You keep claiming that.
That doesn't make it so.
Try reading more closely. Reject your own bias first. See what the text actually says.
The facts are so clear. The Jews aren't the children of Abraham anymore and instead the "children of the devil" because they rejected Jesus. Therefore the covenants to the "children of Abraham" in the Old testament don't apply to them. The promise land isn't promised to them anymore then.
Not at all. "Children of Abraham" always had the dual meaning. If it hadn't, then Ishmaelites and Midianites would be children of Abraham in every sense, but they were not accounted as his children because they didn't have the faith of Abraham. If you don't do what your father does, everyone knew your father dismisses you as a child.
You have this wrong division to the word "anymore" like something changed. The spiritual covenant was always the same: believe on the Seed of the Woman to be revealed. Tribal and national covenants arose at many points in history and are easily separable. Because we're so far from the origin we made up other paradigms where we blur the two types of covenant, and that requires us to invent presto-changeo work on Jesus's behalf, but Jesus did not change one serif of the covenant.
You need to figure out what it is that's driving you so illogically. It appears to be some unstated objection that, if this is true, you'd have to do something crazy that may sound Jewish. I'm not proposing anything crazy or Jewish; I am proposing equal self-determination for all. Maybe you should come straight out and say what you think my position logically entails that you cannot accept, and then I can explain why the position doesn't logically entail it as you might mistakenly believe. (Or perhaps we can get to the real binary proposition separating us.)
Hypocrite. If Muslims aren’t children of Abraham today then neither are jews.
Oh, I agree Muslims are children of Abraham, Semites, Hebrews, as to biology. But the Bible records that these terms narrowed in meaning over time, and also that one could be naturalized into the biology. The interlocutor here has a very rigid replacement view of two eras without any connection between them or any era before, so I'm speaking in that context; but you and I understand both meanings without confusion so that's not at issue.
That isn’t even what I’m saying. Im saying the people called “jews” today have no spiritual connection to the “jews” of the Bible. Or atleast, a less than or equal to connection compared with the Muslims of today.
The people you call jews are more accurately called Talmudists.
Talmudism was a rejection of true Judaism.
Thus they are rejected by their Father. According to your own logic.
This is false, Isaac and Jacob were chosen before they were born. It wasn’t because they had more faith than their siblings. The blessings to the “chosen people” were chosen to be through Jacob’s line.
The covenant God made to Abraham were to the “children of Abraham”, or the biological Jews. Jesus came and said that anybody could be a “child of abraham” by believing in him and lineage didn’t matter.
There is no “Jew or greek” in Christ. There is no special promise to any group based off lineage anymore. How is this so hard to understand??
See now you're taking your invention and reading it into the OT too. Your inability to see the text because of your blinder laid over it is the whole problem.
You define "child of Abraham" or "covenant" person as (1) biological Jews for a period and then (2) believers in Jesus for a later period. This allows you to cut history into two periods where (1) lineage gave promises and (2) it doesn't (with no reason for the change other than misreading Jesus's words). But you immediately also change the promises because Christians haven't controlled the Holy Land most of 2,000 years either. If you actually believed the land promise hadn't changed you'd accept the idea of Israel being run by majority Messianic Jews in the future because they would be Christian; but you don't speak like you do. So your position is wholly inconsistent and based on a proposition that isn't there, the idea that all national texts are spiritualized and the thousands of years where they were taken as literal promises have been broken by God.
Test questions: How did people get saved or in covenant before Abraham?
How did non-biological Jews get saved or in covenant, like Shuah's daughter, the mixed multitude of Egyptians, the Gibeonites, the Kenites, Ruth, the Samaritans, etc.?
How did those Jews who apostasized from God in the OT get handled, did they receive the covenant no matter how evil they were, or were they excluded by being recognized as not having the faith of Abraham?
Why do you say "biological Jews" to refer to "children of Abraham" when Jews are only descended from Judah the great-grandson of Abraham; do you mean "biological Israelites"?
Why were Ishmael, Midian, and grandson Esau not "children of Abraham" in your view if they had the same genes and, you say, had no less faith than their siblings; do you mean God chose Abraham and Isaac but not all their children?
But if God was free to choose from among the biological children of Abraham and Isaac, then why do you act like he was not free to chose from among the biological children of Israel or Judah but that the spiritual covenant was biological?
Are you racist when you imply biological Jews got the national and spiritual covenant for 1,800 years without reference to their lack of faith but only with reference to biology (sounds like a preference among races to me)?
Are you prepared to exposit every passage about biology to say that its meaning changed from what people always took it to mean literally and all such literal passages once were literally accurate but God changed their meaning secretly with a single proclamation of Jesus?
Why don't you exposit Ezekiel 36:24-26 that way and explain how Christians enter into a spiritual land before they are given a new heart?
These people were only the "COA" by joining the Israeli nation. In no way could you be a "COA" when you didn't join the Jewish nation before Christ.
The Jews were descended from Abraham and Jacob. The biological descendants of Jacob had a covenant from God. The Jews claimed they were the "COA" because of there biological descent. Jesus said they weren't and instead the children of the devil because they didn't believe in him. Therefore the covenant given to "COA" doesn't belong to them anymore.
They were the "COA", but had a different set of covenants and blessings than the bloodline of Jacob. If they don't believe in Jesus, then they aren't the "COA" anymore.
Jews are the "children of the devil" and not messianic according to God HIMSELF. Get that in your head. The promise land doesn't belong to them. If the Jews become Christian, it still won't because there is no "ethnic" separation in Christianity.