Sure but what does this prove? That Jacob was referred to as goy before he received the title Israel? I mean, it makes sense that there was a point where Israel started, just like Abraham was a pagan Canaanite before he was anointed by Melchizedek.
I was playing dumb - I know what SwampRanger was getting at and I know his dispensational views. He was obviously being dishonest by saying Israel IS a goy too. It's similar to saying Christ wasn't a Christian - that's a false argument treading on semantics. Jacob is the first person who differentiated from the category goy and created a new category Israel just like Christ created a new category of Christian.
It proves that the english word nation is translated to the Hebrew word goy.
Goy has become a slur God did not intend.
Israel is a people group of 12 tribes and throughout time some of them have represented a remnant of those faithful to the Most High God.
Some other times many fell away.
No, I'm saying Israel is among the Nations rather than apart from the Nations, and Torah proves it (there are other such passages). I'm also not dispensational; the word translated "dispensation" in the Bible refers only to two eras, which Jesus calls the present age and the coming age, which is not a uniquely dispensational system. HTH.
I don't see new categories as you do, but new blessings. As a covenantalist I see one people throughout history. Jacob gave that people a national aspiration and Christ gave it an organic foundation and a new spiritual unity; at other times the same people has made other quantum leaps into new blessings. The fact that we give semantic terms like "Israelite" and "Petrine" to these experiences, and argue over when the term fully begins to apply, is tangential. As an Orthodox you may see more in the organic foundation event "thou art Peter" than I do, but I trust you won't see something that isn't there.
Not exactly. Unless you remember that Israel is a goy too (Gen. 25:23).
I didn't get that.
https://imgur.com/a/bcmkg0b
Copy of text from blueletterbible.com on this verse.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/25/1/
Forgive the add on memes, I can't link around it and the other 2 image boards I had found are unusable.
Sure but what does this prove? That Jacob was referred to as goy before he received the title Israel? I mean, it makes sense that there was a point where Israel started, just like Abraham was a pagan Canaanite before he was anointed by Melchizedek.
I was playing dumb - I know what SwampRanger was getting at and I know his dispensational views. He was obviously being dishonest by saying Israel IS a goy too. It's similar to saying Christ wasn't a Christian - that's a false argument treading on semantics. Jacob is the first person who differentiated from the category goy and created a new category Israel just like Christ created a new category of Christian.
It proves that the english word nation is translated to the Hebrew word goy.
Goy has become a slur God did not intend.
Israel is a people group of 12 tribes and throughout time some of them have represented a remnant of those faithful to the Most High God. Some other times many fell away.
No, I'm saying Israel is among the Nations rather than apart from the Nations, and Torah proves it (there are other such passages). I'm also not dispensational; the word translated "dispensation" in the Bible refers only to two eras, which Jesus calls the present age and the coming age, which is not a uniquely dispensational system. HTH.
I don't see new categories as you do, but new blessings. As a covenantalist I see one people throughout history. Jacob gave that people a national aspiration and Christ gave it an organic foundation and a new spiritual unity; at other times the same people has made other quantum leaps into new blessings. The fact that we give semantic terms like "Israelite" and "Petrine" to these experiences, and argue over when the term fully begins to apply, is tangential. As an Orthodox you may see more in the organic foundation event "thou art Peter" than I do, but I trust you won't see something that isn't there.