Sure but what does this prove? That Jacob was referred to as goy before he received the title Israel? I mean, it makes sense that there was a point where Israel started, just like Abraham was a pagan Canaanite before he was anointed by Melchizedek.
I was playing dumb - I know what SwampRanger was getting at and I know his dispensational views. He was obviously being dishonest by saying Israel IS a goy too. It's similar to saying Christ wasn't a Christian - that's a false argument treading on semantics. Jacob is the first person who differentiated from the category goy and created a new category Israel just like Christ created a new category of Christian.
It proves that the english word nation is translated to the Hebrew word goy.
Goy has become a slur God did not intend.
Israel is a people group of 12 tribes and throughout time some of them have represented a remnant of those faithful to the Most High God.
Some other times many fell away.
God doesn't care about words and languages because those are human creations - He cares about meaning and concepts which are part of His logi (divine ideas).
What matters is what the word 'goy' signifies in the given context.
Israel is a people group of 12 tribes and throughout time some of them have represented a remnant of those faithful to the Most High God. Some other times many fell away.
That's the meaning of Israel until Christ. The NT makes clear that Israel is now the Church - the heavenly Kingdom of God here on Earth and Christians are the new adopted sons of Jacob - not by blood but by the Spirit. This renders the previously accurate term goy blasphemous because as Paul says there are no jews or gentiles for we're all one in Christ. Of course jews and zionist Christians reject this and they stick to the OT definition, hence why we have an actual state of Israel and a new Temple about to be built where they will anoint their false messiah - the Antichrist.
I think the tribes are still awaiting promises and have not been replaced.
I also think we are one in Christ, a body made of many parts and purposes.
The current issues with Israel the nation and the faith base are happening because they are still lost and will be making some big mistakes, I'm told. All the more reason to help everyone find and follow Christ, sooner rather than later.
He created meaning, logic and reason that undergird all languages. He also created sound and man being able to produce and understand language. The sounds and symbols we use to communicate - what we refer to as language - are not that important and they change with time. This is why no language is more holy or superior (a Catholic argument) and all nations can use their language to worship Him.
I also think we are one in Christ, a body made of many parts and purposes.
That's not what the early Church believed in. The Body of Christ is unified and not made of parts that disagree with each other.
If there are no Jews or Gentiles, then from the perspective in Christ it's not a "goy" because it's not "Israel" either. From the perspective outside of Christ it's still both.
You say you're familiar so I'll only allude to the fact that Israel has two applications, national Israel gets national blessings and responsibilities, and spiritual Israel gets spiritual blessings and responsibilities.
As to Sabbath I'll let my words and others' suffice for now.
No, I'm saying Israel is among the Nations rather than apart from the Nations, and Torah proves it (there are other such passages). I'm also not dispensational; the word translated "dispensation" in the Bible refers only to two eras, which Jesus calls the present age and the coming age, which is not a uniquely dispensational system. HTH.
I don't see new categories as you do, but new blessings. As a covenantalist I see one people throughout history. Jacob gave that people a national aspiration and Christ gave it an organic foundation and a new spiritual unity; at other times the same people has made other quantum leaps into new blessings. The fact that we give semantic terms like "Israelite" and "Petrine" to these experiences, and argue over when the term fully begins to apply, is tangential. As an Orthodox you may see more in the organic foundation event "thou art Peter" than I do, but I trust you won't see something that isn't there.
Do you agree that a word can have different meanings depending on context? Do you think Jeff Epstein used the world goyim in the same sense as it was used in the Bible? I already told you that what was appropriate in the OT (categorizing people as jews and gentiles in relation to God) is no longer appropriate after Christ, because the tribal distinction was transcended by the ultimate distinction between Christians vs. non-Christians. After they produced the Messiah, jews no longer have a covenantal relation with God - their covenant was fulfilled. They still have a role in the eschatology though but they're no longer God's people - Christians are.
The fact that we give semantic terms like "Israelite" and "Petrine" to these experiences, and argue over when the term fully begins to apply, is tangential.
Again, it's not arguing over semantics but over God's covenant and our eschatological progression through history. I notice Protestants really struggle with historicity which makes sense since they reject tradition and latch onto abstract ideas that aren't grounded historically (e.g. the Solas). Protestantism is necessarily ahistorical and this makes it breeding ground for various heresies that would otherwise be easy to root out.
One such heresy is judaizing and dispensationalism which comes from lack of proper understanding of covenantal continuity in the Old and New Testaments, the role of Israel and the ending of OT law with Christ and OT worship with the destruction of the Temple (yes, the period between the Resurrection and the 70AD was transitory and given to the jews to acclimate themselves to the new covenant and to become fully Christian).
I already told you that what was appropriate in the OT (categorizing people as jews and gentiles in relation to God) is no longer appropriate after Christ
Then that would apply to male-female and you're no longer a man. But the fact is that this Scripture doesn't preclude people from still having social roles as men, women, Jews, Americans, etc.
Obviously Epstein uses "goy" differently, which is why I point him to the correct meaning from his own professed religion. We'd agree the religion shouldn't be countenancing definition change and can be criticized when it does.
Again you're tempting discussion to go into a number of other matters, and I respect you enough not to rehash those between us when we don't have good agreement on definitions as shown by the main issue I commented on, i.e. Masonry is a judgment upon Jew and Gentile alike, as the verse suggests. If you think Masonry benefits Jews above Gentiles in some endemic way rather than benefiting satanism above any racial class, that's what I was going after and you haven't "gotten that" yet.
Then that would apply to male-female and you're no longer a man. But the fact is that this Scripture doesn't preclude people from still having social roles as men, women, Jews, Americans, etc.
I knew you'd go there. That's why I qualified it with 'in relation to God'. You know very well I didn't mean that all distinctions suddenly disappeared because of Christ. Very sneaky of you to equivocate ontological distinctions based on nature (sex) to a historic role given by God to a person, a tribe or a people. God created all nations and he chose the jews for His covenant, just like He did with Noah and Abraham before them. He chose them to fulfil His plan for the salvation of man. They have done their part, just like Noah and Abraham before them, and then the torch was passed to the Apostles and the Church which will see the end of times and the second advent.
If you think Masonry benefits Jews above Gentiles in some endemic way rather than benefiting satanism above any racial class, that's what I was going after and you haven't "gotten that" yet.
I am simply stating a fact, which is that Masonry is heavily influenced by Talmudic Judaism and Kabbalism. It is satanic but so is Judaism from the Christian perspective - 1 John 2:22 and 4:3 (this is not just my opinion, but the Orthodox position on the Judaism as evidenced in the writings of the Church Fathers and subsequent saints up to our present day).
Sure but what does this prove? That Jacob was referred to as goy before he received the title Israel? I mean, it makes sense that there was a point where Israel started, just like Abraham was a pagan Canaanite before he was anointed by Melchizedek.
I was playing dumb - I know what SwampRanger was getting at and I know his dispensational views. He was obviously being dishonest by saying Israel IS a goy too. It's similar to saying Christ wasn't a Christian - that's a false argument treading on semantics. Jacob is the first person who differentiated from the category goy and created a new category Israel just like Christ created a new category of Christian.
It proves that the english word nation is translated to the Hebrew word goy.
Goy has become a slur God did not intend.
Israel is a people group of 12 tribes and throughout time some of them have represented a remnant of those faithful to the Most High God. Some other times many fell away.
God doesn't care about words and languages because those are human creations - He cares about meaning and concepts which are part of His logi (divine ideas).
What matters is what the word 'goy' signifies in the given context.
That's the meaning of Israel until Christ. The NT makes clear that Israel is now the Church - the heavenly Kingdom of God here on Earth and Christians are the new adopted sons of Jacob - not by blood but by the Spirit. This renders the previously accurate term goy blasphemous because as Paul says there are no jews or gentiles for we're all one in Christ. Of course jews and zionist Christians reject this and they stick to the OT definition, hence why we have an actual state of Israel and a new Temple about to be built where they will anoint their false messiah - the Antichrist.
Pretty sure God creates language.
I think the tribes are still awaiting promises and have not been replaced.
I also think we are one in Christ, a body made of many parts and purposes.
The current issues with Israel the nation and the faith base are happening because they are still lost and will be making some big mistakes, I'm told. All the more reason to help everyone find and follow Christ, sooner rather than later.
He created meaning, logic and reason that undergird all languages. He also created sound and man being able to produce and understand language. The sounds and symbols we use to communicate - what we refer to as language - are not that important and they change with time. This is why no language is more holy or superior (a Catholic argument) and all nations can use their language to worship Him.
That's not what the early Church believed in. The Body of Christ is unified and not made of parts that disagree with each other.
If there are no Jews or Gentiles, then from the perspective in Christ it's not a "goy" because it's not "Israel" either. From the perspective outside of Christ it's still both.
You say you're familiar so I'll only allude to the fact that Israel has two applications, national Israel gets national blessings and responsibilities, and spiritual Israel gets spiritual blessings and responsibilities.
As to Sabbath I'll let my words and others' suffice for now.
No, I'm saying Israel is among the Nations rather than apart from the Nations, and Torah proves it (there are other such passages). I'm also not dispensational; the word translated "dispensation" in the Bible refers only to two eras, which Jesus calls the present age and the coming age, which is not a uniquely dispensational system. HTH.
I don't see new categories as you do, but new blessings. As a covenantalist I see one people throughout history. Jacob gave that people a national aspiration and Christ gave it an organic foundation and a new spiritual unity; at other times the same people has made other quantum leaps into new blessings. The fact that we give semantic terms like "Israelite" and "Petrine" to these experiences, and argue over when the term fully begins to apply, is tangential. As an Orthodox you may see more in the organic foundation event "thou art Peter" than I do, but I trust you won't see something that isn't there.
Do you agree that a word can have different meanings depending on context? Do you think Jeff Epstein used the world goyim in the same sense as it was used in the Bible? I already told you that what was appropriate in the OT (categorizing people as jews and gentiles in relation to God) is no longer appropriate after Christ, because the tribal distinction was transcended by the ultimate distinction between Christians vs. non-Christians. After they produced the Messiah, jews no longer have a covenantal relation with God - their covenant was fulfilled. They still have a role in the eschatology though but they're no longer God's people - Christians are.
Again, it's not arguing over semantics but over God's covenant and our eschatological progression through history. I notice Protestants really struggle with historicity which makes sense since they reject tradition and latch onto abstract ideas that aren't grounded historically (e.g. the Solas). Protestantism is necessarily ahistorical and this makes it breeding ground for various heresies that would otherwise be easy to root out.
One such heresy is judaizing and dispensationalism which comes from lack of proper understanding of covenantal continuity in the Old and New Testaments, the role of Israel and the ending of OT law with Christ and OT worship with the destruction of the Temple (yes, the period between the Resurrection and the 70AD was transitory and given to the jews to acclimate themselves to the new covenant and to become fully Christian).
Then that would apply to male-female and you're no longer a man. But the fact is that this Scripture doesn't preclude people from still having social roles as men, women, Jews, Americans, etc.
Obviously Epstein uses "goy" differently, which is why I point him to the correct meaning from his own professed religion. We'd agree the religion shouldn't be countenancing definition change and can be criticized when it does.
Again you're tempting discussion to go into a number of other matters, and I respect you enough not to rehash those between us when we don't have good agreement on definitions as shown by the main issue I commented on, i.e. Masonry is a judgment upon Jew and Gentile alike, as the verse suggests. If you think Masonry benefits Jews above Gentiles in some endemic way rather than benefiting satanism above any racial class, that's what I was going after and you haven't "gotten that" yet.
I knew you'd go there. That's why I qualified it with 'in relation to God'. You know very well I didn't mean that all distinctions suddenly disappeared because of Christ. Very sneaky of you to equivocate ontological distinctions based on nature (sex) to a historic role given by God to a person, a tribe or a people. God created all nations and he chose the jews for His covenant, just like He did with Noah and Abraham before them. He chose them to fulfil His plan for the salvation of man. They have done their part, just like Noah and Abraham before them, and then the torch was passed to the Apostles and the Church which will see the end of times and the second advent.
I am simply stating a fact, which is that Masonry is heavily influenced by Talmudic Judaism and Kabbalism. It is satanic but so is Judaism from the Christian perspective - 1 John 2:22 and 4:3 (this is not just my opinion, but the Orthodox position on the Judaism as evidenced in the writings of the Church Fathers and subsequent saints up to our present day).