If Jesus was a real historical figure how come we don't have any records. First author who mentions Jesus is the Apostle Paul and he's writing in the 50s. Jesus died around the year 30. So, the first time we have Jesus mentioned in any source is about 20 years after his death.
Do you know that most historical figures of the era are not mentioned by authors for hundreds of years after their death?
Do you know that most scholars agree 1 Cor. 15:3-4 indicates an oral creed circulating about Jesus 3-5 years after his death in 33?
Do you know that Jesus is better historically attested than most other people who lived in that era?
Do you know that if Jesus didn't exist as a person, it would take a person as great as Jesus to be able to invent and propagate such a complicated origin narrative?
Yeah, there were lots of people outside the Gospels in the 1st and 2nd century that said Jesus raised the dead. None of them gave this particular detail that Matthew gives, but it's not significant compared to Jesus himself coming back, which is the core claim that either is completely true or is so amazing that it would take a Jesus to invent it fresh. It wasn't a "massive" number, probably a dozen or so would suffice. And the Talmud demonstrates that the Jews are constantly expecting, and mythologizing, that their fathers are often returning to them bodily to give advice, so all those testimonies also reflect the Matthaean event.
There was no party among the seven or eight Jewish political divisions and many subdivisions that had incentive to popularize these particular "Elijah sightings" as opposed to any others more in line with the emerging Pharisee consensus. Except the new completely unfunded movement, the Messianics (the Way). So it's natural that the Messianics are the only ones to be specific about that resurrection. But about healing, raising the dead, and doing wonders in general, there are many such contemporary testimonies, starting with Tacitus, listed in the link I gave.
You call me "false on every count" and then provide no proof, even though all I did was ask questions. This is an inquiry board but you seem to have your mind made up. Feel free to give evidence rather than circumstantial inference about something I didn't say.
What about all that Jewish "great" kings? :) Where is any historical records of existence of Saul, David, Solomon and others? Where is any historical records of existense of so called "Israel kingdom"? There is no any contemporary third-party historical documents that could independently prove any existence of Israel or Judea at the time. :) First mention of any Jewish settlement in that area dated only by ~850BC by Assirians. Long past all that "kings" and "kingdoms". Assirians was there thousand years before and never mentioned any Jewish state in their writings. None of Ancient Egyptians, Babilonians, Phinikians, Philistinians, Greeks and other developed nations of the time ever mentioned any Jewish state at the time. That biblical ancient "Israel kingdom" exists only in texts written by Jews long after the events.
There is also no any historical records of any founders of so called "12 tribes of Israel". There is also no any historical proof that Jews are descendants of biblical Jacob.
As for Jesus Christ, there is independent historical record about Him. Tacitus, Ancient Rome senator and later consul, official person of Rome and established historian wrote directly about fact that under Tiberius, procurator Pilat executed a person named Christ. (Tacitus, "Annals" XV:44) So, unlike with all that Jewish "superheroes" (supervillains, really, if you will use your brain when reading Old Testament) from Old Testament we have independent third-party historical record about the existence of a real person named Christ who was executed by Pilat, and who started a Christian movement. Tacitus in no way was Christian and even named Christianity "superstition". So he definitely have no interest in inventing something that was not a historical fact about Christ.
What about all that Jewish "great" kings? :) Where is any historical records of existence of Saul, David, Solomon and others
All missing. There is also no historical Abraham, Moses, or Joshua. Many scholars agree on that.
None of Ancient Egyptians, Babilonians, Phinikians, Philistinians, Greeks and other developed nations of the time ever mentioned any Jewish state
That's what I came up with as well. Historically the 12 Tribes of Israel are closer to the 12 Tribes of Yemen. Stories from all over put together in what we now call the OT and the NT. It's all made up as best as I can see.
As for Jesus Christ, there is independent historical record about Him
Most likely there was a person named Jesus, or Yeshua/Iesous, of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in Nazareth. And “Yeshua” was among the most popular male names in the 1st-century Palestine. Jesus didn't have a last name and people used "Jesus(Yeshua) of Nazareth" or "Jesus(Yeshua) the Nazarene" the common way to differentiate him. This referred to his place of origin, Nazareth, a small town in the region of Galilee.
"Christ" is not his last name that's just a title. According to scholars the word "Christ" comes from the verb “anoint” and typically refers to someone who has just had a rubdown (with oil). “Christ” was a title in Jewish circles, however, as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “messiah”.
The question I have then... why would they choose a real person to make up a story. A wonderful story no doubt about that, but still a made-up story. Jesus came from a poor Jewish family. His parents were Galilean peasants. What if this person, Jesus, decided to tell the truth about the Jews and the Romans and what this cabal were doing at that time, killing innocent people left and right. Just like they're doing today, same cabal... same genocide, but now in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. They couldn't use antisemitism (or whatever it was called then) to discredit him, he was Jewish. They could only kill him, which is what they ended up doing trying hard not to make him a martyr. But, that didn't work out too well, Jesus had a very large following. So, they killed him and then decided to write a story and a narrative they (the Empire) could control. "never let a good crisis go to waste" - Rahm Emanuel, former White House Chief of Staff, 2008
The question I have then... why would they choose a real person to make up a story. A wonderful story no doubt about that, but still a made-up story.
There is not much story in New Testament. We don't even know what Jesus do as a God in human flesh for decades, except that he could be a carpenter as His foster father. So, for a made-up story it is too specific and Gospels looks exactly like journalist reports by different journalists about event, not a story about person Himself.
So, they killed him and then decided to write a story and a narrative they (the Empire) could control.
The Empire didn't control the "story" at all. At first, Romans account followers of the "story" as a strange bu harmless small community, then as a threat to Empire and tried to exterminate all of them, and finally Rome itself fall into the "story". That's not how controlled narrative work.
Apart from theology, New Testament is basically is an opposite to the Old Testament story that glorified a single tribe and justified their crimes against humanity. Both parts become a perfect example and severe warning for all humanity of why and how to not become Jews.
It is not hard to imagine that Jews will always try to undermine such manual, creatung "new translations" and "new interpretations". And if you add a theology, then it become obvious why Jews always tried to create a narrative that Christianity is something weak, boring and controlled.
Israel and Yahweh both have a few historical citations prior to 1000 BC, and David has a few by name shortly after. Shoshenq I left records in Byblos, Megiddo, and Karnak of his conquest of named cities of Israel in 925 BC, exactly the time at which the Bible chronology says he (under the name Shishak) attacked Solomon's son Rehoboam. But Israel was generally recognized as similar to other Semitic tribes, i.e. they were Hyksos and Aamu; Abisha the Hyksos was drawn for a hieroglyphic display at around the time Abraham's family kept visiting pharaohs like Sesostris.
I'm pretty confident that the pig-free settlements go back to ca. 1200 BC, that being the primary marker of the Israelites seeing as such nomads left very few other traces.
[Assyrian] "Sennacherib's third campaign, directed against the kingdoms and city-states in the Levant, is very well-documented compared to many other events in the ancient Near East and is the best-documented event in the history of Israel during the First Temple period." https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sennacherib&oldid=1345345960
You suggest the Philistinians should have left records about a Jewish state. Did the Peleset people leave any records about anything at all?
You say "There is also no any historical proof that Jews are descendants of biblical Jacob." Why are they called "Jews" then if they don't come from Judah? What would be wrong with identifying the founder of the tribe by that name and the founder of the Levites among them as Judah's brother Levi?
Thank you for supporting Jesus, I appreciate your views generally and am not speaking or asking antagonistically. All records of Jesus indicate that he believed literally in Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel, Levi, Judah, Moses, David, and Solomon. Was he wrong?
Using jewish-controlled pedowikia as a source of knowledge, especially historical is a sign of dementia. Pedowikia have very biased approach to so called "reliable sources". They account even CNN and ADL as "reliable sources", so there is no way they have different approach for historical ones.
You suggest the Philistinians should have left records about a Jewish state. Did the Peleset people leave any records about anything at all?
Philistinians had their own language and script. Script is Cypro-Minoan, language is Indo-European. There are many ancient still undeciphered writings on clay tablets found on Cyprus and on the Eastern coast of Midterranean Sea. Attempts to study and decipher Philistinian tablets for some reason was made mostly by Soviet archeologists, with partial success, it was enough to determine language is Indo-European, and get some clue about the topics of writings on artifacts, but definitely not enough to create full dictionary and decipher everything. There are dozens if not hundreds of Philistinian tablets in Nicosia museum on Cyprus (looks like https://history.eco/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/kipr-min-1705130_600.jpg) and many in hands of archeologists in other countries. However, for "some" reason, much rare, smaller and more cryptic Etruscans writings attract much more interest in the Western archeology than anything connected with Philistinians. Guess why. :)
As for Jesus and His references to the Jewish historical characters - He obviously had to rely on cultural references of the people who already have own legends and beliefs in attempt to bring the Jews to senses.
If I will try to explain something for American buddy using in examples some references to Superman, Huckleberry Finn and Forrest Gump to make my arguments more clear for one who have completely different cultural background, that will not make all that fictional characters real.
If even I understand that it is wise to talk to people in terms and language they understand, then Jesus definitely understand that too. His references to Jewish legend's characters in no way a proof of their existence or non-existense,
If Jesus was a real historical figure how come we don't have any records. First author who mentions Jesus is the Apostle Paul and he's writing in the 50s. Jesus died around the year 30. So, the first time we have Jesus mentioned in any source is about 20 years after his death.
Have you read the top pinned post and reply at c/Atheism?
Do you know that most historical figures of the era are not mentioned by authors for hundreds of years after their death?
Do you know that most scholars agree 1 Cor. 15:3-4 indicates an oral creed circulating about Jesus 3-5 years after his death in 33?
Do you know that Jesus is better historically attested than most other people who lived in that era?
Do you know that if Jesus didn't exist as a person, it would take a person as great as Jesus to be able to invent and propagate such a complicated origin narrative?
False on every count.
The Gospels claim things that would be impossible to ignore.
Like a massive number of zombies rising from graves and coming to Jerusalem.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:52-53&version=NIV
Yet no one outside the Gospels noticed...
Yeah, there were lots of people outside the Gospels in the 1st and 2nd century that said Jesus raised the dead. None of them gave this particular detail that Matthew gives, but it's not significant compared to Jesus himself coming back, which is the core claim that either is completely true or is so amazing that it would take a Jesus to invent it fresh. It wasn't a "massive" number, probably a dozen or so would suffice. And the Talmud demonstrates that the Jews are constantly expecting, and mythologizing, that their fathers are often returning to them bodily to give advice, so all those testimonies also reflect the Matthaean event.
There was no party among the seven or eight Jewish political divisions and many subdivisions that had incentive to popularize these particular "Elijah sightings" as opposed to any others more in line with the emerging Pharisee consensus. Except the new completely unfunded movement, the Messianics (the Way). So it's natural that the Messianics are the only ones to be specific about that resurrection. But about healing, raising the dead, and doing wonders in general, there are many such contemporary testimonies, starting with Tacitus, listed in the link I gave.
You call me "false on every count" and then provide no proof, even though all I did was ask questions. This is an inquiry board but you seem to have your mind made up. Feel free to give evidence rather than circumstantial inference about something I didn't say.
What about all that Jewish "great" kings? :) Where is any historical records of existence of Saul, David, Solomon and others? Where is any historical records of existense of so called "Israel kingdom"? There is no any contemporary third-party historical documents that could independently prove any existence of Israel or Judea at the time. :) First mention of any Jewish settlement in that area dated only by ~850BC by Assirians. Long past all that "kings" and "kingdoms". Assirians was there thousand years before and never mentioned any Jewish state in their writings. None of Ancient Egyptians, Babilonians, Phinikians, Philistinians, Greeks and other developed nations of the time ever mentioned any Jewish state at the time. That biblical ancient "Israel kingdom" exists only in texts written by Jews long after the events.
There is also no any historical records of any founders of so called "12 tribes of Israel". There is also no any historical proof that Jews are descendants of biblical Jacob.
As for Jesus Christ, there is independent historical record about Him. Tacitus, Ancient Rome senator and later consul, official person of Rome and established historian wrote directly about fact that under Tiberius, procurator Pilat executed a person named Christ. (Tacitus, "Annals" XV:44) So, unlike with all that Jewish "superheroes" (supervillains, really, if you will use your brain when reading Old Testament) from Old Testament we have independent third-party historical record about the existence of a real person named Christ who was executed by Pilat, and who started a Christian movement. Tacitus in no way was Christian and even named Christianity "superstition". So he definitely have no interest in inventing something that was not a historical fact about Christ.
All missing. There is also no historical Abraham, Moses, or Joshua. Many scholars agree on that.
That's what I came up with as well. Historically the 12 Tribes of Israel are closer to the 12 Tribes of Yemen. Stories from all over put together in what we now call the OT and the NT. It's all made up as best as I can see.
Most likely there was a person named Jesus, or Yeshua/Iesous, of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in Nazareth. And “Yeshua” was among the most popular male names in the 1st-century Palestine. Jesus didn't have a last name and people used "Jesus(Yeshua) of Nazareth" or "Jesus(Yeshua) the Nazarene" the common way to differentiate him. This referred to his place of origin, Nazareth, a small town in the region of Galilee.
"Christ" is not his last name that's just a title. According to scholars the word "Christ" comes from the verb “anoint” and typically refers to someone who has just had a rubdown (with oil). “Christ” was a title in Jewish circles, however, as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “messiah”.
The question I have then... why would they choose a real person to make up a story. A wonderful story no doubt about that, but still a made-up story. Jesus came from a poor Jewish family. His parents were Galilean peasants. What if this person, Jesus, decided to tell the truth about the Jews and the Romans and what this cabal were doing at that time, killing innocent people left and right. Just like they're doing today, same cabal... same genocide, but now in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. They couldn't use antisemitism (or whatever it was called then) to discredit him, he was Jewish. They could only kill him, which is what they ended up doing trying hard not to make him a martyr. But, that didn't work out too well, Jesus had a very large following. So, they killed him and then decided to write a story and a narrative they (the Empire) could control. "never let a good crisis go to waste" - Rahm Emanuel, former White House Chief of Staff, 2008
There is not much story in New Testament. We don't even know what Jesus do as a God in human flesh for decades, except that he could be a carpenter as His foster father. So, for a made-up story it is too specific and Gospels looks exactly like journalist reports by different journalists about event, not a story about person Himself.
The Empire didn't control the "story" at all. At first, Romans account followers of the "story" as a strange bu harmless small community, then as a threat to Empire and tried to exterminate all of them, and finally Rome itself fall into the "story". That's not how controlled narrative work.
Apart from theology, New Testament is basically is an opposite to the Old Testament story that glorified a single tribe and justified their crimes against humanity. Both parts become a perfect example and severe warning for all humanity of why and how to not become Jews.
It is not hard to imagine that Jews will always try to undermine such manual, creatung "new translations" and "new interpretations". And if you add a theology, then it become obvious why Jews always tried to create a narrative that Christianity is something weak, boring and controlled.
Israel and Yahweh both have a few historical citations prior to 1000 BC, and David has a few by name shortly after. Shoshenq I left records in Byblos, Megiddo, and Karnak of his conquest of named cities of Israel in 925 BC, exactly the time at which the Bible chronology says he (under the name Shishak) attacked Solomon's son Rehoboam. But Israel was generally recognized as similar to other Semitic tribes, i.e. they were Hyksos and Aamu; Abisha the Hyksos was drawn for a hieroglyphic display at around the time Abraham's family kept visiting pharaohs like Sesostris.
I'm pretty confident that the pig-free settlements go back to ca. 1200 BC, that being the primary marker of the Israelites seeing as such nomads left very few other traces.
[Assyrian] "Sennacherib's third campaign, directed against the kingdoms and city-states in the Levant, is very well-documented compared to many other events in the ancient Near East and is the best-documented event in the history of Israel during the First Temple period." https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sennacherib&oldid=1345345960
You suggest the Philistinians should have left records about a Jewish state. Did the Peleset people leave any records about anything at all?
You say "There is also no any historical proof that Jews are descendants of biblical Jacob." Why are they called "Jews" then if they don't come from Judah? What would be wrong with identifying the founder of the tribe by that name and the founder of the Levites among them as Judah's brother Levi?
Thank you for supporting Jesus, I appreciate your views generally and am not speaking or asking antagonistically. All records of Jesus indicate that he believed literally in Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel, Levi, Judah, Moses, David, and Solomon. Was he wrong?
Using jewish-controlled pedowikia as a source of knowledge, especially historical is a sign of dementia. Pedowikia have very biased approach to so called "reliable sources". They account even CNN and ADL as "reliable sources", so there is no way they have different approach for historical ones.
Philistinians had their own language and script. Script is Cypro-Minoan, language is Indo-European. There are many ancient still undeciphered writings on clay tablets found on Cyprus and on the Eastern coast of Midterranean Sea. Attempts to study and decipher Philistinian tablets for some reason was made mostly by Soviet archeologists, with partial success, it was enough to determine language is Indo-European, and get some clue about the topics of writings on artifacts, but definitely not enough to create full dictionary and decipher everything. There are dozens if not hundreds of Philistinian tablets in Nicosia museum on Cyprus (looks like https://history.eco/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/kipr-min-1705130_600.jpg) and many in hands of archeologists in other countries. However, for "some" reason, much rare, smaller and more cryptic Etruscans writings attract much more interest in the Western archeology than anything connected with Philistinians. Guess why. :)
As for Jesus and His references to the Jewish historical characters - He obviously had to rely on cultural references of the people who already have own legends and beliefs in attempt to bring the Jews to senses.
If I will try to explain something for American buddy using in examples some references to Superman, Huckleberry Finn and Forrest Gump to make my arguments more clear for one who have completely different cultural background, that will not make all that fictional characters real.
If even I understand that it is wise to talk to people in terms and language they understand, then Jesus definitely understand that too. His references to Jewish legend's characters in no way a proof of their existence or non-existense,
"If something happened 2000 years ago, how come there are no surviving records to our day but the only records we have date back to 1970 years ago?"
This is the entirety of your argument. Do you find it compelling?
Meanwhile Plato's earliest manuscripts date back to 14c after his death but no sane person would dare say Plato didn't exist.