Jesus acknowledged that the Jews were the descendants of Abraham, but that they weren’t the “children of Abraham” or the “children of God” anymore, but the “children of the devil”. Since Abraham is not their father, but the devil is, the promises that God gave to Abraham of those blessing Abrahams children being blessed does not apply to the Jews. They rejected Christ and are the children of the devil and not Abraham.
In John 8:37 Jesus said “I know you are Abraham’s descendants”.
in vs. 38, “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did.”
In vs 42, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God.
In vs 44, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.“
Jews were the people chosen to receive divine revelation. However, God the Father gave the Jews one generation to accept Jesus as the messiah. They apostatized, and he sent the Romans to destroy them and their temple. There hasn't been a practicing Jew since 70AD.
Christians are now the "chosen people."
It doesn’t matter from what group you’re from, if you accept Jesus then you’re a “child of God”. It doesn’t matter if you’re Jew, Greek, white, black, or Indian.
💯
Always has been. Before Jesus came it was not determined by lineage either, but by whomsoever wills. For 2,000 years it was decentralized, then for 2,000 years it was focused on one nation, then for 2,000 years it was focused on the other nations, but it's never been closed to anyone. Jesus's lineage has many Gentiles who believed in the Messiah (seed of the woman) to come.
Since Jesus's first ministry led to a church of 5,000 Jews immediately, which increased to many tens of thousands of Torah-observant Jews in Jerusalem alone within years (Acts 21), it wasn't all Jews who were children of the devil, but it was whoever rejected God, as it always was. You're the one saying his promises don't change, take that literally.
It was, the promises in the Bible for Israel to inherit Canaan were specifically to the Jews descended from Abraham.
Yes, and after Jesus came, you could no longer be the “children of Abraham” by descent. They and every other people group were only the children of Abraham through believing in Jesus.
I responded to whether being a child of God was determined by human lineage: it isn't. Land promises are sometimes determined by lineage, with Jews and Gentiles alike: that's not relevant. Now, Luke points out that we're all children of God because Adam was begotten by God, but that's a different sense of child of God.
Similarly, child of Abraham has two senses, natural and spiritual. Children of Abraham by descent remain so regardless. Children of Abraham spiritually are those adopted by the God of Abraham, and once adopted they remain so regardless. You can be either or neither or both. The whole OT is to show that being a child of God (righteous) isn't dependent on human lineage (from God, Abraham, or anyone), but upon spiritual birth. Isaiah and Hosea call out physical Jews for not being of their father (spiritually).
One of the biggest things I had to lose from churchianity was the idea that the Jews were saved by works or lineage. By Hebrews 11 they and their predecessors were only saved by faith, same as we; those without faith were unsaved.
You are literally arguing with Jesus here. There is no “children of Abraham” by descent anymore
Jesus says in John 8, “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants…If you were Abraham’s children, then you would[c] do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things… If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God… You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
Jesus literally told the Jews they aren’t Abraham’s children or Gods but the devils. There are no two senses, you either believe in Jesus and are a “child of Abraham”, or aren’t one.
I think He still waits, for a lot of people
Indeed
Fr. Ripenger (exorcism priest) that states exactly this for anyone interested.
Sorry for the faceburg link.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1GfzNURsdm/
Father Chad Ripperger - Signs of the Mark of the Beast & Rise of the Antichrist | SRS #285 Shawn Ryan Show:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2p_cfipbEw
So who did the J's choose? No one, right? They rejected Christ. So they got wrecked
Historically some Jews have chosen Jesus, along with the other 11 tribes, pentecost comes to mind.
Some Jews choose Jesus in present time too, adding the messianic title to their judaism.
I also think the other tribes are being called together by God now but I don't have physical proof. Along with all of Abraham's seed.
To clarify, lineage doesn't equate salvation, acceptance of Christ does and obedience gains blessings. And those outside Abraham's blood line can accept Jesus too.
Yep, exactly this.
Mind if I add my video I published yesterday to the defense of this post?
https://youtu.be/cT4vWvLLNBY
It contains a bunch of Church Fathers and other theologians defending the exegesis of the OP.
Pepe, do you want me to review this one? I've stated that you're doing much better with keeping things in line but the OP goes over the line and I'm concerned that if I started dialoging with you again we'd be in the same circle as before.
He is talking about their disobedience. Most of Ishmael's kids are disobedient still too.
The branches are pruned and grafted, not completely chopped off.
Jesus told the jews that it doesn’t matter from what descent you’re from. If you reject Christ, then you’re not a “child of Abraham” or “child of God”.
There is no group getting special privileges or blessings because of their “lineage”. The Jews aren’t God’s chosen anymore.
The blessings and privileges have always been based on obedience.
Tribes of Israel were chosen to keep the truth of the Most High God throughout history, that is what they were 'chosen' for and tasked with.
Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God”.
The privileges were only for the physical descendants of Abraham before. Now they are for anybody who “accepts” Jesus, it doesn’t matter what your lineage is and no lineage is more “favored” than another anymore.
That's the only part you have wrong.
Salvation was never based on race.
I never said salvation was, but the privileges the biological Jews had with inheriting Canaan and being the “chosen” people no longer belong to them. The Jews don’t have Canaan as an inheritance because they don’t have any special status anymore.
You can only be the “children of Abraham” through salvation in Jesus, being a descendant of any person doesn’t make you more special than anybody else in God’s eyes.
You're conflating two different realms. Salvation is in the Spiritual realm, while land covenant pertains only to the physical.
When you say things like "there are no two senses," you deny this basic reality; do you have no body? Do you have no soul? Of course you have both. The Bible addresses both.
Don't pretend they're the same.
When looking into Salvation, land covenant is irrelevant.
You could only be a “child of Abraham” by being a biological descendant in the Old Testament. Jesus told the Jews that descent didn’t matter anymore and that they could only be a “child of Abraham” by believing in him. He specifically told him that they were a “child of the devil” and not of God by rejecting him. You are literally arguing with Jesus here over this.
The promised land covenant doesn’t apply to the biological jews anymore, but to the “children of Abraham”. The people who accept Christ regardless of their genealogy.
The privileges Egypt has with retaining Egypt still belong to them, as per Isaiah 19, Zechariah 14, etc. It's true of any biological nation in Scripture.
The privileges the covenant people had were wholly different and always continued with the covenant people, which were largely undifferentiated, then largely Jewish, then largely Gentile (Romans 9-11).
No it doesn’t, Egypt isn’t a divine inheritance given to the Egyptians by God.If Egypt got conquered and the people were forcibly moved out of the land like the native Americans or Jews. They wouldn’t have a right to come back 2,000 years later and displace everybody already in it in the name of God. The Jews aren’t the “children of Abraham” anymore, therefore they don’t have a inheritance.
Again, the “children of Abraham” specifically referred to those blessed by God and with the inheritance of the land of Canaan in the Old Testament. The Jews aren’t the “children of Abraham” anymore and you can only be the “children of Abraham” by believing in Jesus.
I think people outside Abraham had found favor with the Lord, even before the Jews and other tribes. I don't think God changes or breaks promises, even if people do. It can be difficult to see things outside of time while we are stuck in it.
I might be sounding semantical but it does matter.
The promises were to the children of Abraham. Being a child of Abraham is not determined by lineage anymore, but by belief in Jesus as Jesus said himself.
God’s promises don’t ever change, and his promises are still the same to the “children of Abraham”. Those are the people who “accept him” regardless of there descent.
I don't think anyone was saved or privileged by lineage, it's obedience.
I agree with u/SwampRangers on this:
Salvation is on an individual basis.
Jews meanwhile were privileged based on their lineage. They were chose to inherit the land of Canaan by God and to be a “treasured possession chosen out of all nations”.
After Jesus, the Jews aren’t privileged because lineage. Whether or not you’re blessed or are a “COA” is not determined at all by lineage. Physical descent doesn’t matter whatsoever.
Of course Jews aren't children of Abraham, because there is no such historical person. Just like there was no Moses. These are just made up stories and fictitious characters.
Our stories about Abraham and Moses developed as late as the Hellenistic period. The dating of the Hebrew Bible is a topic that remains unresolved. Many traditions and myths found among its pages are old indeed, but the text itself did not reach its final form until the Hellenistic period. If this claim is false it should not be hard to disprove. A single manuscript find could change everything, but I'm not holding my breath. Dr. Gad Barnea a historian at the University of Haifa, after examining every surviving Jewish document from the Persian period, recently stated that there is literally zero evidence for any knowledge of, and any familiarity with the Bible at that time. We may not know how far back the stories of Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Esther, Daniel and other Bible heroes go. All we can say is that no one seems to have written anything down about them until after Alexander the Great and his Empire introduced Greek literature philosophy and culture to the near East.
"Scholars are divided on the existence of many of the great figures of Israel. I myself don’t believe there was a historical Abraham, Moses, or Joshua, for example (or if they did exist they were basically nothing like the figures described in the Hebrew Bible)." - Bart Ehrman, October 24, 2013
Preston, was there such a historical person as Abisha the Hyksos, a Semite who negotiated business with the house of Sesostris during the same period that Abraham was testified as negotiating the same business?
Was there such a historical person as the leader of the Hyksos departure from Avaris (Ramses) in ca. 1539 BC (called Moses by Manetho) where hundreds of thousands of Semites left Egypt for Canaan and, after a pharaoh power vacuum, Ahmose testified that a great tempest and a great blackout occurred?