Nope, I've said for years that those who criticize the Talmud with misquotes and strawmen are the ones advancing the Talmud, while accurate criticism of the Talmud must depend on understanding its cultural context as with any other criticism. I have a number of criticisms of the Talmud on grounds of insularity and superstition that don't rely on strawmen.
not once are the Pyramids mentioned.
Argument from silence. The tower of Babel (a ziggurat, the same style as the pyramids) is mentioned as representative. I tentatively accept Etemenanki as this tower. But the purpose of the Bible is not to glorify giant works done in the names of other gods, so much about contemporary religion is deliberately omitted.
more than 100 pyramids
Only 4-5 of them are what people think of as "pyramids". The rest are more moundlike and are mostly unimpressive ziggurats under 50 m.
none of this is ever mentioned in the Bible
Argument from silence. The book is not about the Egyptian people per se but only about Egyptian interactions with covenant people. Egyptology is indeed amazing, but when you look into it you find where the Bible alludes to the same things. First, recognize that "Egypt" is a Greek word and the Old Kingdom had other names for itself, notably "Tawy" in Egyptian. This means the two bounded lands, and is translated in Semitic languages as "Misraim" (Arabic "Misr", its current official name). Given the variety we don't have to assume that description of early culture is limited to use of the names Tawy or Misraim. A good summary of early culture is Gen. 6:1-8, where we see exactly the divine-human sexual union depicted in Old Kingdom deities like Amun. That far back, that's enough correlation to posit an overlap even without specific name mention.
Gen. 10 includes an incredible wealth of worldwide data encoded in names. Here Mizraim is given as a son of Ham and his family is eventually assigned the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. The Middle Kingdom never built large pyramids like the Old Kingdom and so the Egyptians' Semitic slaves had nothing to do with that earlier slave labor; the Semites were instead employed building smaller ziggurats, temples, obelisks, and fortifications like that of Apophis in Avaris against Kamose and Ahmose. Since the text is unqualifiedly iconoclastic, there would be no mention of building statues; but they appear later in Scripture, and the statues of Ur, which included some Egyptian deities, are mentioned in oral tradition about Abraham put to paper later.
But Gen. 10-11 specifically focuses on events that have didactic value. Thus Nimrod (probably Naram-Sin grandson of Sargon) is singled out because of the uniqueness of his unprecedented Akkadian Empire. This rise coincides with the collapse of the Egyptian 6th dynasty into an Intermediate Period of relative impotence compared to Akkad, so it's appropriate to focus on Akkad rather than Egypt when discussing that period (23rd century BC). Centuries later, in the time of Abraham (which I have as 2044-1869 on Biblical chronology), well, Akkad was weak again and Egypt was entering the stronger Middle Kingdom and anxious to trade with Semitic merchants, as I documented. And at that time you see all kinds of references to pharaohs and Egyptians, but not to architecture, which is appropriate for nomads who care about relationship more than structure.
In 1763 the elevation of Joseph corresponds naturally with the founding of the 14th Egyptian dynasty, admittedly run by Canaanites, and likely founded by Yakbim/Salitis; this ran concurrently with the 13th dynasty in the south, just as the Bible indicates Joseph's power in the north was largely independent from the pharaonic successions in the south (e.g. Khendjer). The great building works directed by Joseph are discussed prominently, Gen. 41:48-57, and his legislative reforms, Gen. 47:13-26. The Israelites settle in Goshen in 1754, Gen. 46:28-29, the exact abandoned region now called Tell el-Yahudiyeh. Their primary cities are later named as Pithom (Per-Atum) and Ramses (Avaris), exactly where the Hyksos lived.
Egypt never had Pharaohs
The title pharaoh for a person is first attested with Thutmose III, a little after the Hyksos expulsion, but it's a very old Egyptian word and originally meant "great house" and referred to the palace and the administration rather than an individual, starting in the 12th dynasty, the one that Abraham traded with. Because of the collectivist focus of culture, the king was regarded as one with the people, land, palaces, and administration and was not to act "independently" but as the collective will of the people. In modern English, we might use similar titles like "the court" when referring to what an individual judge does in the name of a collective; judges might refer to themselves as "the court" when their more literal meaning is that they are identified with a people as their appointed agents. That is the way in which "pharaoh" is used from Gen. 12 on, and it's consistent with the Egyptian use of the word from the contemporaneous 12th dynasty on, where it is usually translated something like "great house". Good observation, because this is easily misstated if one is not careful!
There is nothing recorded in Egypt literature archives about Moses, or Israelites, or slavery
Manetho is Egyptian literature and mentions Moses. The Merneptah Stele of 1208 is Egyptian archives and mentions Israel. The subjugation of the Semites to build warworks under Apophis is also well-documented and corresponds to the brickmaking work of Exodus. If you mean they didn't bother to mention the same names contemporaneously with their lives, it was not expected that they should care about foreign names in formal literature or architecture. But we do have a number of crossovers of Semitic names in Egyptian records, too many to list. "Moses" is likely cognate with the many pharaohs with the same root, Dedumose, Kamose, Ahmose, Thutmose, Ramose (Ramses), etc. "Yah" appears in the name of Jtwnjr’yh, an 18th-century Semite who got his own special burial in Egypt and dedicated copy of the Book of the Dead, whose Hebrew name was Adoni-Roe-Yah. Egyptian god names were often different for the same Semitic deity concepts, but the linkages can be traced; so for instance Seth was identified as the Semitic god Baal-Zephon, exactly the name the Bible gives to the Semitic outpost in Ex. 14 (at that time this was understood as a title for Yahweh, the leader of the divine council; separation of Yahweh and Baal concepts happened demonstrably later). There are a few more such correlations I've noted.
In fact Egypt didn't widely practice slavery, and never had slave open markets.
Correct, Gen. 15 should not be read as speaking of 400 years of slavery because in context it indicates that slavery was a culmination of the 400 years. But the law that all land and people belong to pharaoh (the great house) is ancient, and mentioned in Genesis, and is defacto slavery (what they didn't practice is an oligarchy where each master had his own slaves, as the Levantine nomads had). In the war between Apophis and Kamose, Apophis had laborers build fortifications at Avaris (also Nefrusy, Per-Atum, Tjaru, and On/Heliopolis). This is the point at which the straw breaks the camel's back and the despoiled people seek a redeemer figure.
Also, nothing recorded about the Exodus, escaping of the Jews to the promised land, in Egyptian literature.
I told you and linked you, look up the Hyksos expulsion where hundreds of thousands of Semites left Ramses and crossed the Red Sea into the Levant. It's standard Egyptology, it's just not recognized by many as the same as the Exodus. Other Semites left at the same time besides the Israelites; some are named in Deut. 2.
the Pyramids ... the most important achievement of the people in Egypt
To your subjective judgment and argument from silence, they're not mentioned because the ziggurats were idol temples and were not to be glorified by the covenant people, and so are only mentioned in connection with their failure at Babel. They would hardly have called them "pyramid", a Greek word, anyway, as you note about "Egypt"; they would have called them "migdal", typically translated tower. We think of the three great pyramids as tourist traps, but to the Egyptians they were just overblown cemeteries that didn't affect daily life.
Nothing in the Hebrew culture or even traditions (Talmud is the most important book in Jewish culture) resemble anything to do with ancient Egypt.
Rather a sweeping assertion. I've loaded you up with Egyptian references and customs that don't reflect the later times to which the text has been forward-dated.
But, plenty of traditions from Babylon where the Israelites were in captivity for 70 years (not 400 years like in Egypt, according to what we're told).
I've never seen credible assertions that the Torah has data dated to Babylon and not to any earlier period. I told you the theory was invented by 19th-century German atheist historical-revisionists who hated the Bible and wanted its testimony dead. The whole book of Deuteronomy closely parallels suzerainty contracts popular ca. 2000-1500 that were not used in later periods. But when people try to argue for a late date on some decontextual wording or uncertainty, it's always easily answerable.
One mistake Christians have made is to insist that Gen. 15 means 400 years of slavery. On the dates and chronologies given this is impossible, and on the later references to this (including Paul) it's clear that it refers to a total sojourn in Egypt starting with Abram's first visit (1969) until the Exodus (1539). The meaning of the text is that these three things named, including slavery, will occupy a round total of 400 years (later calculated as exactly 430). The Biblical description of slave labor itself is chiefly confined to the reign of Apophis in wartime, just as history says.
Add: Since I have this page open, another very fun one is the highly valuable synchronism of the Stele of Neferhotep made in Lebanon by a diplomatic mission on his behalf: since Governor Yantinu of Byblos (Yantinammu) is depicted, it's clear there was a journey of Egyptians to the Levant at this time that had the opportunity to strike up business relations and possibly vassalage. Lo and behold, the Bible says that Joseph's family did make exactly such a trip, for other reasons, and were regarded by the Canaanites as Egyptians, internally dating it to 1737, right in Neferhotep's reign when the Stele was constructed.
Now, Preston, this is a speculative forum, and I don't intend to write to be dogmatic (in case my tone misleads). (Add: You asked and I should answer directly, I do pursue truth at all costs, and adjust my views when evidence indicates.) I am very interested in Babylonian influence on Israel and would not gainsay its evidences, even if I might not agree with the conclusions drawn from them. (I was just looking separately into the Zoroastrian wrath demon Khashm-Dev who informs the apocryphal Asmodeus; backdating that name to being a contemporary of Solomon does bear the marks of later narrative-padding, unlike the cases we're discussing here.) The issue is whether we can approach it with free thinking and open minds. You present to me some data about the word "pharaoh" that I was unaware of, and I thank you; I look at the data and recognize that it doesn't affect my general conclusion but does require me to adjust my perception of the different cultural uses of the word. I'm presenting you a lot of data, some long known and some I and others recently uncovered, and I trust you recognize it's not a clearcut scenario to reject the historic people whose stories became the narratives we have today. What you present is mostly argument from silence, and such an argument logically gives way when greater evidence is provided. So I'm interested in where you intend to take the evidence discussion in the pursuit of the truth out there.
Semitic languages as "Misraim" (Arabic "Misr", its current official name)
You should read the book titled "Egypt Knew No Pharaohs Nor Israelites", it is a very good read. "The truth is that ancient Egypt never knew any Pharaohs nor any Israelites. Egypt was never the land of Exodus and Palestine was never the Promised Land." - Dr. Ashraf Ezzat
Dr Ezzat is backed by every reputable expert in the world. He argues that ancient Hebrew history as we know it today is based on one big lie, that events described as happening in Egypt, if they happened at all, really happened in Arabia. Dr Ezzat states that the events of the Old Testament occurred in southwestern Arabia, in a province called Mizraim, or Misr, a location now near modern day Yemen, which is where he says the tribe of Israel was really born. Which means that according to his version, the tales of Joseph, Moses and the Exodus might still be true, but the location in which they are alleged to have happened are false.
Egyptologists, from James Henry Breasted to Donald Redford to Israel Finkelstein. Even some Israeli experts agree, including the head of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, Prof. Ze'ev Herzog, in a 1999 article in Ha'aretz, said: "The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel.". Egypt's written records date back to 1870 BC. No trace of the Israelites.
A good summary of early culture is Gen. 6:1-8, where we see exactly
Why do you keep referring to OT, which is an old forgery? I just proved that to you it's a fraud, there is no mention of Pyramids, Sphinx, etc. But, that is just for starters... the terrain, which in the OT more resembles hilly Arabia rather than flat Egypt. Also, the Bible recounts droughts, which Egypt never had, only fluctuations in the flooding of the Nile. Many of the events ascribed to the area of present day Palestine actually occurred much further south down the coast of the Red Sea. an even more telling detail in the Joseph story was the camel caravan carrying "gum, balm and myrrh", which were products of Arabian trade, not Egypt's. But the most revealing clue the OT is nothing but a forgery was the notion of slavery, which Ezzat claims was never practiced in Egypt until the Greeks and Persians brought the practice with them a thousand years later than the supposed time of Moses and Joseph. Some stories state the pyramids were built by slaves, but history shows us the pyramid builders were willing volunteers, as the village of the pyramid builders attests. Another aspect of this millennia-old OT fraud was the label of pharaoh, which no Egyptian document ever uses. But the leader of the Mizraim tribe was called Faraon, which made the switch from Hebrew to Greek and the creation of a villainous pharaoh many centuries later an easy trick to pull off. Egypt, one of the best documented of all ancient civilizations, never once used the term pharaoh.
The Septaguint deception had been the result of a Greek-Jewish bond very similar to nowadays' American-Israeli one. Controlling and manipulating world superpowers, ancient and modern, is obviously an old Jewish proficiency. They replaced this obscure tribal leader Faraon with the mighty Egypt and its king.
Gen. 10 includes an incredible wealth of worldwide data encoded in names. Here Mizraim is given as a son
Jews wrote the Hebrew Bible. And Jews lie. They lied in the past, they lie today. How many modern examples do you need? just read the Epstein released files. Netanyahu said recently in a speech that the Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3000 years ago. Yet another Jewish lie. Ezzat says no. "The Jewish people were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BC... There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 2200s BCE... The chronicle of events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave results or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 12 plagues etc.".
In his breakthrough theory "Bible Came from Arabia" Dr. Kamal Salibi has discovered more than one hundred place names in Arabia and North Yemen that amazingly matched the ones mentioned in the Torah, Ezzat writes. "The land Joshua conquered was a small territory in North Yemen. The Egypt of the Bible is not the Egypt of the Nile Valley but an obscure little town in the southwestern desert of ancient Arabia called Mizraim, or Misr in Hebrew and Arabic. "The Exodus took place in a much humbler way and on a much narrower scale in an obscure little village in ancient South Arabia," Ezzat writes.
Prof. Breasted writes the Egyptians possessed a standard of morals far superior to that of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) over a thousand years before the Decalogue was written. So Ezzat is not making this stuff up. Breasted is one of the most respected historians ever. And Ezzat's insistence that much of the material in the OT is fabricated, distorted and plagiarized is true. For instance, the wisdom of Amenemope, preserved in an Egyptian papyrus in the British Museum, was translated into Hebrew in ancient times and, circulating in Palestine, was the source for a whole section of the OT Book of Proverbs.
I like new sources. Dr. Ashraf Ezzat, "Author and Filmmaker", gravatar.com/ashraf53, ashraf62.wordpress.com, imdb.com/name/nm5967076, Faculty of Medicine, Alexandria University, location "Land of Osiris": he has quite the intense stare. His links look 100% self-promoted, but that's no disqualifier. He writes:
Nothing in the ‘milieu of that story’ indicates that it happened in Egypt, except maybe the mistaken association between ‘Pharaoh’ and ‘King’ of Egypt, a false correlation that needs to be untangled and cleared out in the collective subconscious. Likewise, nothing in ancient Egyptian records or its oral tradition say or even allude to the fact that this tale of Moses happened in Egypt.
I was on the hop about the two meanings of Pharaoh, but otherwise I listed plenty counterexamples. Let's read further.
Pharaoh was never a title for Egypt’s king.
Seems contradicted from Thutmose III on, with the backdating or retconning to earlier kings. (Very interesting: "rabbi" has the same feature, it was not applied to many contemporaries until it entered vogue around 100 AD; so Jesus may have been the first person called "rabbi" (great one) in his lifetime, even though the Talmud retcons many leaders as "rabbis" before him.) If he gets too dogmatic it'll be so revisionist as to defeat his purpose.
Mainstream Egyptologists just went along with the Biblical narrative and absentmindedly designated Egypt’s Kings as Pharaohs.
Dismissive scapegoating. The Middle Kingdom blessing "May Pharaoh live, prosper, and be in health" repeated over the centuries, even if formally applied to a building, sounds just as anthropomorphic as anything in Genesis, and begins usage about the same time, the 20th century BC. Plus, the Bible correctly reflects that "Pharaoh" was not used with a name at this time, but later used with names like Hophra or Neco, precisely the shift seen in Egyptian sources, of the same dates. So I think the Egyptologists are following the Egyptian sources. So far I'm getting a bad vibe this is just althist without any meat, but let's stay open-minded ....
If we examined the Hebrew text the Bible (currently in our hands) used as a reference we will strangely not find Egypt mentioned in it as the site/land of the Exodus story.
Another incredibly sweeping claim that needs no debunking because it would be outrageous if taken literally ....
The third century BC ... is when Egypt was first hijacked and forcibly placed in the Hebrew Bible as the theater of the Israelite landmark stories.
So the LXX. But does he have an MT or Hebrew text that says differently? Because if not, the LXX is correct.
No one can revisit Egypt that too many times and never refers to one of its ancient icons; the Pyramids.
Purely rhetorical flourish to the argument from silence. Waiting patiently ....
All of their stories are devoid of any trace of Egyptian influence.
Waiting ....
Slavery was not a common practice in ancient Egypt in the first place. Unlike the pervasive culture of slavery in the Israelite stories, ancient Egypt never had a public market for trading slaves.
His evidence for "pervasive" is Joseph and Moses. Now, the KJV doesn't use the word "slave" here, which is pretty loaded with the changes in its meaning in 19th-century English, but speaks of "servant" (ebed), pretty broad. The same word is used of the court butler (the security chief), a high-standing official; it has no attribute of degradation (unlike the word paired with some of the service, "affliction"). Then it is used for all the Egyptians, the people as belonging to the court, the king. We might argue that King James was wrong and self-advancing to spin-doctor the Ten Commandments by making it "house of bondage" not "house of service", but that is not the fault of Hebrew. The fact that Potiphar was a servant who had his own servant, and the fact that the Israelites were servants just like the Egyptians were servants, don't speak of a pervasive atmosphere of even 200 years of continuous slavery (the actual affliction was only a brief time). Christians are wrong and self-advancing to get the slavery emphasis wrong, but for several reasons we are far removed from that cultural understanding so it's an understandable mistake.
Checking WP's extensive article, I find "the Berlin papyri show that by the time of the Second Intermediate Period, a slave could be owned by both an elite individual (like the king) and a community." Sounds like the Bible, and sounds very unlike Ezzat. Maybe he's fudging since slaves were generally not sold but arrived as prisoners of war or debtors or new births to a prior generation of servants. Yup, there it is, "Slave dealing in Ancient Egypt was done through private dealers and not through a public market." But also, "Many more slaves were also acquired via the Mediterranean slave market, where Egypt was the main purchaser of international slaves." So he's batting zero so far.
Everything about ancient Egyptian culture; its art, architecture, monuments, people, theology, mythology, and the pantheon of gods is uniquely strong and influential even to this very day. After such a long sojourn in the land of the Nile Valley, one would have expected to find some trace of Egyptian cultural influence in the Israelite history and narrative, but that was hardly the case.
Another argument from silence. Being nomadic foreigners, the Semites (Habiru) were notorious for not picking up culture from their surroundings. For art, they kept their own Semitic "TEY ware", which is easily distinguished from Egyptian pottery. Nomads didn't have architecture or monuments; "Hyksos" means "Shepherd", and Egypt despised that idea. Joseph married an Egyptian, and a mixed multitude of Egyptians accompanied Moses, but they were required to abandon their religion to remain in the community, and this was enforced stringently as common for desert life. Theology, mythology, and pantheon was, well, strong but so variable that many contrary things could be considered Egyptian religion; but the Exodus indicates that all traditional gods (Nile, frogs, oxen, the sun, the firstborn, etc.) were being demonstrably defeated by the one Semitic storm god, named Yahweh in the text (as he is named earlier in the Book of the Dead, I noted). So you didn't last long if you continued Egyptian religion, there was a communal push to reject all that, which overcame contrary views. Could we say a little bit of Egyptology still slipped in? Moses learned from Egyptian courts, and in that sense many laws do reflect Egyptian practice; e.g. in Egypt a slave could be given freedom for a justifiable grievance, as Moses agrees. But the whole point is that the Hyksos maintained separate cultural identity within Egypt (Yakbim never even used a cartouche), so the argument from silence is again unpersuasive.
Themes from Sumerian and Babylonian mythology like that of the flood, Adam and Eve, and the tree of knowledge can be traced in the Hebrew book.
Um, yeah, Abraham was from the Sumer area, so this is natural. Why would they add Egyptian creation legend when they had a perfectly good Hebrew one already?
And no, the argument that claims the Israelites refrained from being affected by pagan beliefs and culture can’t be considered valid, for all sorts of Sumerian, Assyrian, and Babylonian (pagan) cultural influences are jammed into their Torah.
That might be a testable hypothesis, but offhand I don't think Egyptian influence is zero and other influences "jammed". The idea that the Torah is influenced by culture that came after its closing date of 1499 has never borne itself out, though there have been imaginative attempts.
The not-so-infrequent comparison between King Akhenaten’s monotheism and that of the Israelites is also invalid
His reasons are again very ephemeral. Actually, Akhenaten was influenced by the Hyksos monotheism (which Hatshepsut went on record for abominating) and so I would hold contrarily that he had the derivative monotheism. If Aten is the universal god, he is one with Yahweh who is depicted as the universal god, and neither can be advantaged against the other.
And that's it! He goes right to the sales pitch. No honest exploration, just US dollars. Wow. There is a Kindle preview, which gives locations out of 509 as follows:
1 Cover 9 Title 32 Dedication 50 Bio 65 What Really Happened 86 Copyright 105 TOC 153 Intro 173 Ex. 11:1 198 Village of Mizraim 222 Arabian tribe 242 Faraon vs. Pr-aa 278 No Pharaoh (again) 260 Egyptology false 283 How could Egypt hit wrath? 300 Maat 311 Good/right, idolatry/tyranny 330 Seeming paradox 347 Egypt would've converted 364 1400-1200 382 Not New Kingdom, not Ramses II 401 Not Merneptah, not Thutmose III 421 Not Israelite pyramids 442 LXX; Egypt not Misr 471 I heard Maat 492 Pyramids damn sure included whenever Egypt visited
260: "Almost all of the academic work of Eyptologists carried out over the last two centuries or so, is simply based on a false premise."
Nope, Preston, I don't see myself buying it. I'll give you some leeway and concessions where I might agree, which I'll mention in the next paragraph. But what I see first is someone proud of Egypt and eager to excise a negative view of one Pharaoh from being overlaid on a giant history. Instead of facing facts he simply denies the whole deal. Now, at least he doesn't deny that Thutmose and all successive rulers were indeed Pr-aa, but he denies that "Pharaoh" is an appropriate parallel term and argues that it means an obscure Arabic ruler. So, out of respect for his being Egyptian, I'll be happy to call Apophis (Apepi) the "Pr-aa", i.e. the court, rather than the "Pharaoh", in this context (though I'll use the usual term in other contexts). But he's not going to carry the argument if his primary proof is a few Arabic-Hebrew convergences (which is natural, both being Semitic) that you have to pay for. Etymology is my strong suit and I can spot a phony equivalence quickly, if I do say so myself.
But what's happening is that he tries to prove too much. Let's agree that the legend of the LXX is wrong and self-advancing for giving far too much credit to the miraculous and undercuts the likely actual process by which the text originated. Let's agree that Josephus was wrong and self-advancing to say the Israelites built the pyramids. Let's agree that Jewish Hollywood is wrong and self-advancing to say the same in Gods and Kings. Let's agree that "Judeo-Christians" were wrong and self-advancing to seize upon Ramses II and Merneptah because they saw the name Ramses in the Bible and thought it must've happened close to Ramses the Great, when that is not stated nor required. Let's agree that Judeo-Christians beating up on Pharaoh Apepi are wrong and self-advancing because ignoring their own equally heinous sins of rebellion. See, that's a few concessions, and around here we say we're also "noticing" a "pattern". And guess what: all of those concessions don't excuse an Egyptian from being wrong and self-advancing in the other direction.
To find the truth we'll need more than one contrarian who disagrees with everyone and can't spell "Karnak" in his preview text. I will be happy to file that there exists an alternate theory where Misraim and Faraon and a couple other words have linkages to Yemen. But if he's not willing to let this theory flow freely, it suggests it's not worth paying for and he's not interested in truth spreading. Searches indicate that the core points of his theory are not public but are all paywalled. An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and he's not giving that; he appears just to be an Egypt apologist who wants you to know that Egypt is a great and misunderstood empire.
But the fact is that Egypt did have two intermediate periods of weakness and bare continuity. It did degrade and renew and then fall tragically with Cleopatra. It did have hundreds of kings of varying competencies, and Apepi was not necessarily worse than the rest, but (the text shows) he was made a didactic example of. During his reign, the Thera volcano exploded (exactly 1540, dated by Hugh Schofield, and I say on 8 Sep due to the Rhind Papyrus). This was regionally catastrophic and left radioactive dust throughout the Mediterranean, still useful for layer-dating because it's so unique. (You can go to Avaris today and find the exact same dust that Moses cast into the air to cause plagues twice, it's that distinctive.) All ten plagues can be naturalistic upheavals responsive to this historic eruption. So both the hardness and historically attested downfall of Apepi and the explosion of Thera were contemporary, and they are karmically connected as well. And that is no curse on the other hundreds of kings of Egypt, it's just another didactic event, and that's what the Bible makes it. For Ezzat to ignore the many fluctuations in Egypt's fortunes is to reject a whole jar of ointment just to remove one perceived irritation in it.
Let's see how many characters I have left.
Why do you keep referring to OT
Because it has historical value for my references, validated by other sources.
I just proved that to you it's a fraud
You proposed an alternate hypothesis without data. That's where I file it for now.
the terrain, which in the OT more resembles hilly Arabia
No hills mentioned in Egypt. Deut. 11:10-11 contrasts hills of Israel with garden-like land of Egypt. What are you thinking of?
Nope, Preston, I don't see myself buying it... what I see first is someone proud of Egypt
I didn't think you would buy it. But, you also have a lot to explain when it comes to numbers, and that's right out of the OT. The event the book of Exodus itself and the Book of Numbers indicate that the people, the Israelites who left Egypt, that there were 600,000 men of military age. So, you're not talking about old man, you're not talking about children and you're not talking about women. Six hundred thousand so you add all the others, what is that? two and a half, three million people? and one problem is that's more than the population of Egypt would have been by a long shot. And apart from that, when you think three million people you expect there's going some kinds of remains like pottery or weaponry or you know, stuff. I mean we have stuff from what, well before that time for other civilizations. There's nothing regarding Exodus and so that's that. It does cause problems for you, think that anything like what the Bible describes happened it's a problem because you'd expect some remains.
Regardless if you buy it or not, Palestine was not the homeland for the kingdom of Israel and the stories of its early patriarchs. The inception of Judaism and the stories of Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses happened in Arabia and Yemen. The blatant failure of Biblical archaeology in the land of Palestine is primarily due to a premise completely flawed and a Bible (Septaguint) cunningly tampered with. By the same evil creeps who manipulate our news and educational materials today. People like Leon Black, the Jewish billionaire who is accused of raping a 7-year-old girl in the Epstein Files and who owns Lifetouch. The biggest school picture company in America that photographs millions of kids each year. Like I said they always lie, but you go on and keep believing them. Rather than Dr. Ashraf Ezzat who indeed may be proud of Egypt, that doesn't mean he would make things up. Or Prof. James Henry Breasted an archaeologist, Egyptologist, and historian.
Good questions. Let me first separate one question out: Feel free to pick on individual Jews and Jewish organizations, because that is one purpose for this forum, picking on anyone who conspires evilly regardless of race. It's very easy for an objective person to do this without being collectivist or judging the innocent (e.g. the children of a race) along with the guilty. For that reason, people who don't are easily identified as nonobjective.
Again, my take on where to trust history comes from the fact that I made an irrevocable commitment to Jesus, even knowing that he's identified as Jewish. Only he can revoke it. What he says about the Hebrew Scripture is my rule. But I've never needed to fear truth because the truth has always backed up his claims. So I'm happy to look into details and I'm motivated to consider any evidence that I could be wrong, because I am committed to all truth. If Jesus should fail me, that might conceivably be him revoking my commitment, via demonstration of his impotence; but he has always revealed himself as potentate.
Yes, population demographics are a much more important field than realized. A quick unchecked quote comes up: "The total population, they say, was of old about 7 million and the number has remained no less down to our day" (Diodorus Siculus, Historical Library 1.31.8). Modern estimates are a bit lower. Recall that the "Israelite" exodus officially included a mixed multitude of non-Jews along with descendants of Israel. Though the nomadic-community influx of Jacob's family could have been almost 10,000, to get to 2 million would have required conversion as well as birth. Though many were Egyptians, this group were required to consent to Moses's laws and to be circumcised, and the entire polity were counted as "Israel" regardless of heritage, because all were naturalized equally; and the desert wandering cemented this identification and rooted out rebellions. So this number is not immodest.
Since Ramses does have archeological evidence of sudden abandonment by Semite dwellers, this implies that there was a massive population hit via the Hyksos expulsion, even on Manetho's numbers. On the above I'd be comfortable with 30%, while 60% would not be impossible, and 15% could be defended by conservatives. If you read Ahmose's boasting about how he arrived at a devastated region and took over, unifying the people, it's no surprise. Look, Scored itself has had attrition of 95% in some regions and 60% in others, and is still going strong; people do it. Did you know 8% of the population of Nicaragua, which might be 30% of the men of fighting age, entered America this past decade? That's a pretty statistically significant exodus too. I don't think that comparing the largest estimate of Israel's population and the smallest estimate of Egypt's population and claiming contradiction would be sustained, because it admittedly uses two different counting methods. Apples to apples there is no problem.
you expect there's going some kinds of remains like pottery or weaponry or you know, stuff
What is the difference between exodus and expulsion then?
The inception of Judaism and the stories of Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses happened in Arabia and Yemen.
I said I'd look into that. There's another source I'd heard recently on similar claims that I want to consult. But, takeaway, most of these sources admit Abraham and Moses were real (just misplaced), which contradicts your initial claim. So pick which one you want to defend.
a Bible (Septaguint) cunningly tampered with
This lacks evidence. We have the original and translated text. There is no alternate manuscript tradition by which tampering with thousands of words would have been a sustainable theory. When you look at admitted document tampering by the Inquisition, by contrast, all kinds of evidence shows what happened and what was original.
you go on and keep believing them
I worship exactly one Jew. When he happens to agree with other Jews, that means those other Jews aren't lying on that point.
Dr. Ashraf Ezzat ... indeed may be proud of Egypt, that doesn't mean he would make things up.
Medical doctor Ezzat isn't lying, but he is being dramatic. He's saying Egypt has no "pharaoh" when he knows very well and admits that Egypt had a "pr-aa" since the 20th century BC. That's a semantic quibble to increase hits and purchases. On the argument that Egypt has no Israelites, I'll look into it, and yet his sources claim the Israelites back to Abraham's family were indeed still very real, which means the Bible isn't lying even if we interpret its geography wrong. Similarly, Breasted's math is likely based on the same atheist althist invented in the 19th century as if closeted Babylonians came up with the name "Mose", one of the most common Egyptian names but only of a millennium prior. (Let me repeat that list for my own records: Ahmose, Amenmose, Dedumose, Kamose, Ptahmose, Ramose, Thutmose. Several repeated often, and maybe more names exist. But none after about 1000 BC.)
So the sources aren't proving what you infer they're proving. If there were a real challenge to a Christian worldview it would be worth considering (which is why I'm taking the Asir hypothesis with more time), but these are not significant and have been ably dealt with by the existing historian community.
The chronicle of events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave results or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula.
Of course not, it was 1539. Right when Apepi's dynasty collapsed.
Dr. Kamal Salibi has discovered more than one hundred place names in Arabia and North Yemen that amazingly matched the ones mentioned in the Torah, Ezzat writes.
I'll follow up, thanks. Copyright 1985, 1987 PDF edition. TOC looks better than Ezzat's. But most lists of 100 etymology "matches" I review are 90% false and 10% useless.
Prof. Breasted writes the Egyptians possessed a standard of morals far superior to that of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) over a thousand years before the Decalogue was written.
Not really. There are similarities that both Egypt and Israel took from Hammurabi; but the best expression of Egyptian standards resembling the decalogue occurs in a Book of the Dead of Hatshepsut ca. 1475 BC, after the decalogue is given in 1539 BC. The actual spell 125 is not very decaloguy either. If he fast-forwards the decalogue 1100 years, well then sure, but conservatives don't.
The wisdom of Amenemope, preserved in an Egyptian papyrus in the British Museum, was translated into Hebrew in ancient times and, circulating in Palestine, was the source for a whole section of the OT Book of Proverbs.
Haven't heard. But since Paul quotes Epimenides and Aratus, sometimes with attribution, what would be wrong if it were true that Solomon quoted Amenemope without attribution? However, the argument that Amenemope is older is based on one "unquestionable" dating to the 21st dynasty conducted by Jaroslav Cerny, so I'm not going to make a ruling based on a single source, given that others place it much later. However, I do like prima facie the theory that Prov. 22:17 "yom af-atah" ("[this] day, even to thee") might be a corruption of "[Amen-]Em-Opet"*, so that might influence me to favor Egyptian priority. And what of it? 22:17 admits they are "words of the wise" and not necessarily Solomon's, just like 24:23, 30:1, 31:1. Plus, even if one is copying the other, in either direction the copyist is clearly reorganizing and modifying the material to his own purposes, so it's original wisdom in both passages. I'll keep that question open too, as it might be a good Bible study later.
I'm a Jesus guy. Jesus is King of the Jews but he never lied. If he says the Hebrew Scriptures cannot be broken and not even a serif will disappear from them, I believe it, not only because he's always proven himself, but because the Scriptures have passed every test I or anyone has ever thrown at them. I sought out the worst tests and regularly found they were just sour grapes created by people who don't care. I compared them to objections to the Talmud and Quran, and found that there were sour-grapes motives there too, and lack of seeking original culture or comparative religion. But I came to find out that the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures have passed every test of historical authenticity, predictive verification, and moral purity, and the Talmud and Quran, while beautiful and uplifting, don't pass every test. So Jesus is vindicated for me every day I test him. This means I am free to consider the most outrageous blasphemies against him because he's defeated every one of them I've ever considered and because if even one of them stuck I'd need to change my views to acknowledge the full truth. I pursue truth wherever it leads, and, if Jesus were wrong when he said Moses was a great lawgiver and that he himself called Moses down from heaven to talk to him in AD 32, when he said that Abraham was feasting in glory and was still alive to God, I'd accept the truth about it. But funny thing, he always looks and speaks better than every whiner who complains that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about. It's only because of Jesus that I know that all mere men are liars, and he's the only source I have for finding the real truth. I have nothing to fear from learning more. It's only salesmen who talk big and deliver little who have things to fear from the truth.
xv: "As a newcomer to the field of Semitic and Biblical studies, I was guided in the initial stages of my research by two colleagues."
1: "I freely acknowledge that my discovery must remain theoretical until confirmed by archaeological investigation .... Of course, in breaking new ground it is likely that I have committed a number of errors, which hostile critics may seize upon in an effort to discredit my conclusions. I sincerely doubt, however, that such errors are likely to be of such magnitude or substance that they will alter my case."
3: "My argument rests almost entirely upon the assumption that the Hebrew Bible has been consistently mistranslated."
6: "I look forward to the day when archaeologists will excavate some of the sites I mention and hopefully provide further evidence that the true land of the Hebrew Bible is West Arabia, not Palestine."
7: "Nearly all the Biblical place-names I could think of were concentrated in an area approximately 600 kilometres long and 200 kilometres wide .... All the co-ordinates of the places involved, as described in the Hebrew Bible, were also traceable there — a fact of the first importance, as these co-ordinates have never really been identified in the countries hitherto believed to have been the lands of the Bible. Moreover, I could not find such a concentration of Biblical place-names, usually in their original Hebrew form, in any other part of the Near East."
9: "‘Jegar-sahadutha’ (Aramaic ygr shdwt’) ... ‘Galeed’ (Hebrew gl‘d) and ‘Mizpah’ (Hebrew h-msph) .... All three names are
still carried today by three little-known villages in the same
vicinity on the maritime slopes of Asir, in the region of Rijal
Alma‘ (Rigal Alma‘), west of Abha (Abha). Their names are:
Far‘at Al Shahda (’I shd’), meaning ‘god is the witness’ or ‘god
of the witness’, the Arabic pr‘t or pr‘h denoting a mound or
hill, equivalent in meaning to the Aramaic ygr; al-Ja‘d (’l-g‘d),
which is an Arabicised metathesis of gl‘d; and al-Madhaf (mdp; cf. msph)."
14: "The battle of Carchemish ... took place near Taif, in the southern Hijaz, where two neighbouring villages, Qarr (qr) and Qamashah (qms), still stand. Thus, I would maintain, the Biblical ‘Carchemish’ is certainly not the Hittite Kargamesa, now Jerablus, on the Euphrates, as is traditionally believed."
23: "In [Beersheba] whose name features prominently in the patriarchal narratives of Genesis, and whose origins must therefore go back at least to the late Bronze Age, archaeological excavation has revealed on the exact site materials dating from no earlier than the late Roman period."
26: "Ideally, the full text of the Hebrew Bible must be so analysed, but this involves work for more than one lifetime."
26: "The fact that the Hebrew Bible relates the history of the ancient Israelites in West Arabia does not mean that Judaism had no base in Palestine in Biblical times. It did .... There are clear Biblical hints regarding the growth of a strong Jewish community in Palestine, starting perhaps in the tenth century B.C. ... The reconstruction of the early Jewish history in Palestine is not possible from these texts, nor indeed from any other records so far available."
51: "Kraeling, p. 80 ...: In late Roman times there was a district Geraritike, evidently so named because it was composed primarily of the old Gerar territory."
53-54: "The site of the Biblical Gerar in Palestine has not yet been satisfactorily identified, and no place there continues to carry anything resembling this name."
54: "Msrym denotes any of several locations in West Arabia, including the village of Misramah ... or that of Masr."
55: "Strabo reports ... Gallus reached a place called the ‘Seven Wells’ .... Philby noted the existence of Shaba‘ah."
60: "There is no Gerar near Gaza, in Palestine. Among several which are found in Asir, however, one (al-Qararah) is the Gerar of Genesis 20 and 26 and 2 Chronicles 14, and another (any of four called Ghurar, al-Jarar, Ghirar or al-Qararah) is that of Genesis 10."
WP: "Tel Haror is generally accepted as the site of ancient Gerar. Nevertheless, some other places in the vicinity, between Gaza and Beersheba, have also been suggested."
63: "In the field of Biblical archaeology and its related discipline, palaeography, there is ample opportunity not only for error, but for perpetuating it almost indefinitely."
64: "It is wrong to draw historical conclusions on the basis of inconclusive archaeological evidence."
68-69: "The ‘Moabite Stone’ (the name itself is a misnomer) was set up in Qarhoh (qrhh) by Mesha, king of Moab (ms‘ mlk m’b) - so the inscription on it says .... The Qarhoh in question is apparently the present-day Jahra (ghr), in the area where the stone was found."
WP: "The Mesha Stele, also known as the Moabite Stone, .... was discovered intact by Frederick Augustus Klein, an Anglican missionary, at the site of ancient Dibon (now Dhiban, Jordan), in August 1868."
69: "Mesha describes himself in the inscription as not only king of Moab, but also as a dybny, i.e., as a native of dybn. Dibyan (dbyn) today is also a village in Wadi Adam, not far from Umm al-Yab. So far, readers of the ‘Moabite Stone’ have assumed that dybn is the present village of Dhiban (dbn), in Transjordan, north of where the stone was found. I would suggest, however, that this Dhiban was called after the old Dibyan of the Hijaz after Mesha and his followers arrived to settle there."
72: "The Amarna place-names only make a collective fit in
West Arabia. The interested reader may care to examine a table of thirty such names, identified one by one by location."
76: "By now, I hope the reader is willing to concede that there may be sufficient evidence to justify at least a reassessment of the hitherto universally held belief that the events described in the Hebrew Bible relate mainly to Palestine. My next task is to establish the Arabian setting of the Hebrew Bible as a whole, hoping to convince the reader further .... I intend ... to show how this Tihamah is actually the Tehom mentioned in more than thirty passages of the text of the Hebrew Bible."
WP: "Tihamah is the Red Sea coastal plain of the Arabian Peninsula from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb. Tihāmat is the Proto-Semitic language's term for 'sea'. Tiamat was the ancient Mesopotamian god of the sea and of chaos. The word appears in masculine form in the Hebrew Bible as təhōm (Genesis 1:2), meaning 'primordial ocean, abyss'."
76-77: "Hayam (hym) ... denotes porous, sandy soil unable to retain water, that is to say soil which remains ‘thirsty’ .... In Arabic, the name of the West Arabian coastal desert should have been Hayam. Its actual name, Tihamah, is a survival of the Biblical Tehom (thwm)."
77-78: "Tehom makes the best sense, wherever it occurs in the canonical Hebrew Bible, as the old Semitic name for the West Arabian coastlands which are called today Tihamah."
78: "The mistranslation here is that of the Revised Standard Version, hereafter RSV .... 1 He will bless you (ybrkk) with the blessings of heaven above (brkt smym m-'l), blessings of the deep that couches beneath (brkt thwm rbst tht), blessings of the breasts and the womb (brkt sdym w-rhm) (Genesis 49:25b). 2 Blessed by the Lord (or by Yahweh) be his land (mbrkt yhwh ’rsw), with the choicest gifts of heaven above (m-mgd smym m-‘l), and the deep that couches beneath (m-thwm rbst tht) (Deuteronomy 33:13b)."
79: "One finds that they actually involve not ‘blessings’, but definitions of the territory or territorial claim of this tribe: 1 He shall settle you (ybrkk) in the Rakkah of Samayin from above (b-rkt smym m-‘l), in the Rakkah of the Tihamah of Rabidah below (b-rkt thwm rbst tht), in the Rakkah of Thadyayn and Rahm (b-rkt sdym w-rhm). 2 From Barakah shall be his land (m-brkt yhwh ’rsw), from the Miqaddah of Samayin (m-mgd smym); from the ridge (m-tl); and from the Tihamah of Rabidah below (w-m-thwm rbst tht) .... I concede there could be a play on words in each of these two definitions of the territory of the Joseph tribe .... In the two passages just cited, the Hebrew ybrkk (see note 8) can mean both ‘he shall settle you’, and ‘he shall bless you’."
80: "Yet the fact remains that the two ‘blessings’ of the Joseph tribe, in Genesis and Deuteronomy, do cite place-names, and hence yield a sense that is concrete. Whatever figurative sense might have been intended by punning, it must be regarded as being of secondary importance, if any."
86: "The event is reported in the standard translations as follows: The waters coming down from above (m-l-m‘lh) stood and rose up in a heap far off (nd ’hd h-rhq m ’d) at Adam (’dm), the city that is beside Zarethan (srtn), and those flowing down toward the sea of the Arabah (‘l ym ‘rbh), the Salt Sea (ym h-mlh), were wholly cut off; and the people passed over opposite Jericho (yryhw) (RSV)."
87: "Joshua 3:16 must be retranslated as follows: The waters coming down from al-Ma‘lah stood, they rose up in one dam extending from Wadd, at Adam, the city that is beside Raznah, and those flowing down west of Ghurabah, west o f al-Milhah, were wholly cut off; and the people passed over opposite Rakhyah."
92: "Msrym ... is rarely used in the Hebrew Bible to refer to Egypt, as commonly assumed. Where it does not refer to Misramah near Abha (see Chapters 4 and 13), it refers to Masr, in Wadi Bishah, or to Madrum (mdrm), in the Ghamid highlands (see Chapter 14). The Biblical ‘Pharaoh’ (pr‘h), as will be suggested later, was not the ruler of Egypt, but a West Arabian god."
93: "Certainly, a ‘Pharaoh’ tribe, called the Far‘a (pr'), is still
to be found in Wadi Bishah today, carrying the name of the
ancient god or chiefs of the region."
95: "The Jordan (also h-yrdn) where Naaman of Aram ‘dipped himself seven times’ .... could only have been a stream or pool of water. In this case, the term yrdn derives from the same Semitic root yrd."
98: "In Arabic, whd yields the substantives wahd (whd) and wahdah (whdh, with the feminine suffix), meaning an ‘area of flat, low-lying land; ravine’, while the Biblical yhwdh, from yhd, must have been an ancient Semitic topographical term carrying more or less the same meaning."
100: "Pashhur (pshwr) ... is today clearly the oasis of al-Harshaf (hrsp), in Wadi Habuna, north of Wadi Najran."
108: "Altogether, of the 130 recognised place-names in the Ezra-Nehemiah lists, which I have correlated with those West Arabian villages cited above, the identification of only a few remains uncertain. What is perhaps even more important, however, is that no more than a handful of names have been identified with locations in Palestine (in Simons, only ten) .... The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation."
That's about halfway through so I'll leave it there for now as a quote list without significant analysis. You might guess my first impressions from my selections. However, my first note is that you're moving from an Egyptian apologist to an Arabian apologist (if you use too many sources partial to Islam you might get suspected of Islam; you're on the most skeptical site on the internet, doubt it). My second note is, as before, that Salibi is quite the literalist, upholding the existence of all the Biblical peoples, just putting them in Asir in Arabia; so it's hardly compatible to use him as evidence that Abraham and Moses didn't exist. It appears you've shifted the goalpost from your initial implication, "Did Abraham or Moses ever exist? perhaps they're all made up for the story", or from your rather contradictory acceptance of both positions, "Moses and the tribes (Israelites) were Arabs from Yemen .... [AI:] There is no proof of [Abraham and Moses] existence outside of the Bible." If your purpose is to debunk Judaism (and perhaps Christianity) by saying it was all Arabian, that doesn't debunk any miracle or claim other than geography, which is not relevant except for some Zionists. So I'm still unsure of your endgame. But still skimming the text.
Nope, I've said for years that those who criticize the Talmud with misquotes and strawmen are the ones advancing the Talmud, while accurate criticism of the Talmud must depend on understanding its cultural context as with any other criticism. I have a number of criticisms of the Talmud on grounds of insularity and superstition that don't rely on strawmen.
Argument from silence. The tower of Babel (a ziggurat, the same style as the pyramids) is mentioned as representative. I tentatively accept Etemenanki as this tower. But the purpose of the Bible is not to glorify giant works done in the names of other gods, so much about contemporary religion is deliberately omitted.
Only 4-5 of them are what people think of as "pyramids". The rest are more moundlike and are mostly unimpressive ziggurats under 50 m.
Argument from silence. The book is not about the Egyptian people per se but only about Egyptian interactions with covenant people. Egyptology is indeed amazing, but when you look into it you find where the Bible alludes to the same things. First, recognize that "Egypt" is a Greek word and the Old Kingdom had other names for itself, notably "Tawy" in Egyptian. This means the two bounded lands, and is translated in Semitic languages as "Misraim" (Arabic "Misr", its current official name). Given the variety we don't have to assume that description of early culture is limited to use of the names Tawy or Misraim. A good summary of early culture is Gen. 6:1-8, where we see exactly the divine-human sexual union depicted in Old Kingdom deities like Amun. That far back, that's enough correlation to posit an overlap even without specific name mention.
Gen. 10 includes an incredible wealth of worldwide data encoded in names. Here Mizraim is given as a son of Ham and his family is eventually assigned the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. The Middle Kingdom never built large pyramids like the Old Kingdom and so the Egyptians' Semitic slaves had nothing to do with that earlier slave labor; the Semites were instead employed building smaller ziggurats, temples, obelisks, and fortifications like that of Apophis in Avaris against Kamose and Ahmose. Since the text is unqualifiedly iconoclastic, there would be no mention of building statues; but they appear later in Scripture, and the statues of Ur, which included some Egyptian deities, are mentioned in oral tradition about Abraham put to paper later.
But Gen. 10-11 specifically focuses on events that have didactic value. Thus Nimrod (probably Naram-Sin grandson of Sargon) is singled out because of the uniqueness of his unprecedented Akkadian Empire. This rise coincides with the collapse of the Egyptian 6th dynasty into an Intermediate Period of relative impotence compared to Akkad, so it's appropriate to focus on Akkad rather than Egypt when discussing that period (23rd century BC). Centuries later, in the time of Abraham (which I have as 2044-1869 on Biblical chronology), well, Akkad was weak again and Egypt was entering the stronger Middle Kingdom and anxious to trade with Semitic merchants, as I documented. And at that time you see all kinds of references to pharaohs and Egyptians, but not to architecture, which is appropriate for nomads who care about relationship more than structure.
In 1763 the elevation of Joseph corresponds naturally with the founding of the 14th Egyptian dynasty, admittedly run by Canaanites, and likely founded by Yakbim/Salitis; this ran concurrently with the 13th dynasty in the south, just as the Bible indicates Joseph's power in the north was largely independent from the pharaonic successions in the south (e.g. Khendjer). The great building works directed by Joseph are discussed prominently, Gen. 41:48-57, and his legislative reforms, Gen. 47:13-26. The Israelites settle in Goshen in 1754, Gen. 46:28-29, the exact abandoned region now called Tell el-Yahudiyeh. Their primary cities are later named as Pithom (Per-Atum) and Ramses (Avaris), exactly where the Hyksos lived.
The title pharaoh for a person is first attested with Thutmose III, a little after the Hyksos expulsion, but it's a very old Egyptian word and originally meant "great house" and referred to the palace and the administration rather than an individual, starting in the 12th dynasty, the one that Abraham traded with. Because of the collectivist focus of culture, the king was regarded as one with the people, land, palaces, and administration and was not to act "independently" but as the collective will of the people. In modern English, we might use similar titles like "the court" when referring to what an individual judge does in the name of a collective; judges might refer to themselves as "the court" when their more literal meaning is that they are identified with a people as their appointed agents. That is the way in which "pharaoh" is used from Gen. 12 on, and it's consistent with the Egyptian use of the word from the contemporaneous 12th dynasty on, where it is usually translated something like "great house". Good observation, because this is easily misstated if one is not careful!
Manetho is Egyptian literature and mentions Moses. The Merneptah Stele of 1208 is Egyptian archives and mentions Israel. The subjugation of the Semites to build warworks under Apophis is also well-documented and corresponds to the brickmaking work of Exodus. If you mean they didn't bother to mention the same names contemporaneously with their lives, it was not expected that they should care about foreign names in formal literature or architecture. But we do have a number of crossovers of Semitic names in Egyptian records, too many to list. "Moses" is likely cognate with the many pharaohs with the same root, Dedumose, Kamose, Ahmose, Thutmose, Ramose (Ramses), etc. "Yah" appears in the name of Jtwnjr’yh, an 18th-century Semite who got his own special burial in Egypt and dedicated copy of the Book of the Dead, whose Hebrew name was Adoni-Roe-Yah. Egyptian god names were often different for the same Semitic deity concepts, but the linkages can be traced; so for instance Seth was identified as the Semitic god Baal-Zephon, exactly the name the Bible gives to the Semitic outpost in Ex. 14 (at that time this was understood as a title for Yahweh, the leader of the divine council; separation of Yahweh and Baal concepts happened demonstrably later). There are a few more such correlations I've noted.
Correct, Gen. 15 should not be read as speaking of 400 years of slavery because in context it indicates that slavery was a culmination of the 400 years. But the law that all land and people belong to pharaoh (the great house) is ancient, and mentioned in Genesis, and is defacto slavery (what they didn't practice is an oligarchy where each master had his own slaves, as the Levantine nomads had). In the war between Apophis and Kamose, Apophis had laborers build fortifications at Avaris (also Nefrusy, Per-Atum, Tjaru, and On/Heliopolis). This is the point at which the straw breaks the camel's back and the despoiled people seek a redeemer figure.
I told you and linked you, look up the Hyksos expulsion where hundreds of thousands of Semites left Ramses and crossed the Red Sea into the Levant. It's standard Egyptology, it's just not recognized by many as the same as the Exodus. Other Semites left at the same time besides the Israelites; some are named in Deut. 2.
To your subjective judgment and argument from silence, they're not mentioned because the ziggurats were idol temples and were not to be glorified by the covenant people, and so are only mentioned in connection with their failure at Babel. They would hardly have called them "pyramid", a Greek word, anyway, as you note about "Egypt"; they would have called them "migdal", typically translated tower. We think of the three great pyramids as tourist traps, but to the Egyptians they were just overblown cemeteries that didn't affect daily life.
Rather a sweeping assertion. I've loaded you up with Egyptian references and customs that don't reflect the later times to which the text has been forward-dated.
I've never seen credible assertions that the Torah has data dated to Babylon and not to any earlier period. I told you the theory was invented by 19th-century German atheist historical-revisionists who hated the Bible and wanted its testimony dead. The whole book of Deuteronomy closely parallels suzerainty contracts popular ca. 2000-1500 that were not used in later periods. But when people try to argue for a late date on some decontextual wording or uncertainty, it's always easily answerable.
One mistake Christians have made is to insist that Gen. 15 means 400 years of slavery. On the dates and chronologies given this is impossible, and on the later references to this (including Paul) it's clear that it refers to a total sojourn in Egypt starting with Abram's first visit (1969) until the Exodus (1539). The meaning of the text is that these three things named, including slavery, will occupy a round total of 400 years (later calculated as exactly 430). The Biblical description of slave labor itself is chiefly confined to the reign of Apophis in wartime, just as history says.
Add: Since I have this page open, another very fun one is the highly valuable synchronism of the Stele of Neferhotep made in Lebanon by a diplomatic mission on his behalf: since Governor Yantinu of Byblos (Yantinammu) is depicted, it's clear there was a journey of Egyptians to the Levant at this time that had the opportunity to strike up business relations and possibly vassalage. Lo and behold, the Bible says that Joseph's family did make exactly such a trip, for other reasons, and were regarded by the Canaanites as Egyptians, internally dating it to 1737, right in Neferhotep's reign when the Stele was constructed.
Now, Preston, this is a speculative forum, and I don't intend to write to be dogmatic (in case my tone misleads). (Add: You asked and I should answer directly, I do pursue truth at all costs, and adjust my views when evidence indicates.) I am very interested in Babylonian influence on Israel and would not gainsay its evidences, even if I might not agree with the conclusions drawn from them. (I was just looking separately into the Zoroastrian wrath demon Khashm-Dev who informs the apocryphal Asmodeus; backdating that name to being a contemporary of Solomon does bear the marks of later narrative-padding, unlike the cases we're discussing here.) The issue is whether we can approach it with free thinking and open minds. You present to me some data about the word "pharaoh" that I was unaware of, and I thank you; I look at the data and recognize that it doesn't affect my general conclusion but does require me to adjust my perception of the different cultural uses of the word. I'm presenting you a lot of data, some long known and some I and others recently uncovered, and I trust you recognize it's not a clearcut scenario to reject the historic people whose stories became the narratives we have today. What you present is mostly argument from silence, and such an argument logically gives way when greater evidence is provided. So I'm interested in where you intend to take the evidence discussion in the pursuit of the truth out there.
You should read the book titled "Egypt Knew No Pharaohs Nor Israelites", it is a very good read. "The truth is that ancient Egypt never knew any Pharaohs nor any Israelites. Egypt was never the land of Exodus and Palestine was never the Promised Land." - Dr. Ashraf Ezzat
Dr Ezzat is backed by every reputable expert in the world. He argues that ancient Hebrew history as we know it today is based on one big lie, that events described as happening in Egypt, if they happened at all, really happened in Arabia. Dr Ezzat states that the events of the Old Testament occurred in southwestern Arabia, in a province called Mizraim, or Misr, a location now near modern day Yemen, which is where he says the tribe of Israel was really born. Which means that according to his version, the tales of Joseph, Moses and the Exodus might still be true, but the location in which they are alleged to have happened are false.
Egyptologists, from James Henry Breasted to Donald Redford to Israel Finkelstein. Even some Israeli experts agree, including the head of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, Prof. Ze'ev Herzog, in a 1999 article in Ha'aretz, said: "The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel.". Egypt's written records date back to 1870 BC. No trace of the Israelites.
Why do you keep referring to OT, which is an old forgery? I just proved that to you it's a fraud, there is no mention of Pyramids, Sphinx, etc. But, that is just for starters... the terrain, which in the OT more resembles hilly Arabia rather than flat Egypt. Also, the Bible recounts droughts, which Egypt never had, only fluctuations in the flooding of the Nile. Many of the events ascribed to the area of present day Palestine actually occurred much further south down the coast of the Red Sea. an even more telling detail in the Joseph story was the camel caravan carrying "gum, balm and myrrh", which were products of Arabian trade, not Egypt's. But the most revealing clue the OT is nothing but a forgery was the notion of slavery, which Ezzat claims was never practiced in Egypt until the Greeks and Persians brought the practice with them a thousand years later than the supposed time of Moses and Joseph. Some stories state the pyramids were built by slaves, but history shows us the pyramid builders were willing volunteers, as the village of the pyramid builders attests. Another aspect of this millennia-old OT fraud was the label of pharaoh, which no Egyptian document ever uses. But the leader of the Mizraim tribe was called Faraon, which made the switch from Hebrew to Greek and the creation of a villainous pharaoh many centuries later an easy trick to pull off. Egypt, one of the best documented of all ancient civilizations, never once used the term pharaoh.
The Septaguint deception had been the result of a Greek-Jewish bond very similar to nowadays' American-Israeli one. Controlling and manipulating world superpowers, ancient and modern, is obviously an old Jewish proficiency. They replaced this obscure tribal leader Faraon with the mighty Egypt and its king.
Jews wrote the Hebrew Bible. And Jews lie. They lied in the past, they lie today. How many modern examples do you need? just read the Epstein released files. Netanyahu said recently in a speech that the Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3000 years ago. Yet another Jewish lie. Ezzat says no. "The Jewish people were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BC... There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 2200s BCE... The chronicle of events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave results or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 12 plagues etc.".
In his breakthrough theory "Bible Came from Arabia" Dr. Kamal Salibi has discovered more than one hundred place names in Arabia and North Yemen that amazingly matched the ones mentioned in the Torah, Ezzat writes. "The land Joshua conquered was a small territory in North Yemen. The Egypt of the Bible is not the Egypt of the Nile Valley but an obscure little town in the southwestern desert of ancient Arabia called Mizraim, or Misr in Hebrew and Arabic. "The Exodus took place in a much humbler way and on a much narrower scale in an obscure little village in ancient South Arabia," Ezzat writes.
Prof. Breasted writes the Egyptians possessed a standard of morals far superior to that of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) over a thousand years before the Decalogue was written. So Ezzat is not making this stuff up. Breasted is one of the most respected historians ever. And Ezzat's insistence that much of the material in the OT is fabricated, distorted and plagiarized is true. For instance, the wisdom of Amenemope, preserved in an Egyptian papyrus in the British Museum, was translated into Hebrew in ancient times and, circulating in Palestine, was the source for a whole section of the OT Book of Proverbs.
Jews lie. They always have, and they always will.
I like new sources. Dr. Ashraf Ezzat, "Author and Filmmaker", gravatar.com/ashraf53, ashraf62.wordpress.com, imdb.com/name/nm5967076, Faculty of Medicine, Alexandria University, location "Land of Osiris": he has quite the intense stare. His links look 100% self-promoted, but that's no disqualifier. He writes:
I was on the hop about the two meanings of Pharaoh, but otherwise I listed plenty counterexamples. Let's read further.
Seems contradicted from Thutmose III on, with the backdating or retconning to earlier kings. (Very interesting: "rabbi" has the same feature, it was not applied to many contemporaries until it entered vogue around 100 AD; so Jesus may have been the first person called "rabbi" (great one) in his lifetime, even though the Talmud retcons many leaders as "rabbis" before him.) If he gets too dogmatic it'll be so revisionist as to defeat his purpose.
Dismissive scapegoating. The Middle Kingdom blessing "May Pharaoh live, prosper, and be in health" repeated over the centuries, even if formally applied to a building, sounds just as anthropomorphic as anything in Genesis, and begins usage about the same time, the 20th century BC. Plus, the Bible correctly reflects that "Pharaoh" was not used with a name at this time, but later used with names like Hophra or Neco, precisely the shift seen in Egyptian sources, of the same dates. So I think the Egyptologists are following the Egyptian sources. So far I'm getting a bad vibe this is just althist without any meat, but let's stay open-minded ....
Another incredibly sweeping claim that needs no debunking because it would be outrageous if taken literally ....
So the LXX. But does he have an MT or Hebrew text that says differently? Because if not, the LXX is correct.
Purely rhetorical flourish to the argument from silence. Waiting patiently ....
Waiting ....
His evidence for "pervasive" is Joseph and Moses. Now, the KJV doesn't use the word "slave" here, which is pretty loaded with the changes in its meaning in 19th-century English, but speaks of "servant" (ebed), pretty broad. The same word is used of the court butler (the security chief), a high-standing official; it has no attribute of degradation (unlike the word paired with some of the service, "affliction"). Then it is used for all the Egyptians, the people as belonging to the court, the king. We might argue that King James was wrong and self-advancing to spin-doctor the Ten Commandments by making it "house of bondage" not "house of service", but that is not the fault of Hebrew. The fact that Potiphar was a servant who had his own servant, and the fact that the Israelites were servants just like the Egyptians were servants, don't speak of a pervasive atmosphere of even 200 years of continuous slavery (the actual affliction was only a brief time). Christians are wrong and self-advancing to get the slavery emphasis wrong, but for several reasons we are far removed from that cultural understanding so it's an understandable mistake.
Checking WP's extensive article, I find "the Berlin papyri show that by the time of the Second Intermediate Period, a slave could be owned by both an elite individual (like the king) and a community." Sounds like the Bible, and sounds very unlike Ezzat. Maybe he's fudging since slaves were generally not sold but arrived as prisoners of war or debtors or new births to a prior generation of servants. Yup, there it is, "Slave dealing in Ancient Egypt was done through private dealers and not through a public market." But also, "Many more slaves were also acquired via the Mediterranean slave market, where Egypt was the main purchaser of international slaves." So he's batting zero so far.
Another argument from silence. Being nomadic foreigners, the Semites (Habiru) were notorious for not picking up culture from their surroundings. For art, they kept their own Semitic "TEY ware", which is easily distinguished from Egyptian pottery. Nomads didn't have architecture or monuments; "Hyksos" means "Shepherd", and Egypt despised that idea. Joseph married an Egyptian, and a mixed multitude of Egyptians accompanied Moses, but they were required to abandon their religion to remain in the community, and this was enforced stringently as common for desert life. Theology, mythology, and pantheon was, well, strong but so variable that many contrary things could be considered Egyptian religion; but the Exodus indicates that all traditional gods (Nile, frogs, oxen, the sun, the firstborn, etc.) were being demonstrably defeated by the one Semitic storm god, named Yahweh in the text (as he is named earlier in the Book of the Dead, I noted). So you didn't last long if you continued Egyptian religion, there was a communal push to reject all that, which overcame contrary views. Could we say a little bit of Egyptology still slipped in? Moses learned from Egyptian courts, and in that sense many laws do reflect Egyptian practice; e.g. in Egypt a slave could be given freedom for a justifiable grievance, as Moses agrees. But the whole point is that the Hyksos maintained separate cultural identity within Egypt (Yakbim never even used a cartouche), so the argument from silence is again unpersuasive.
Um, yeah, Abraham was from the Sumer area, so this is natural. Why would they add Egyptian creation legend when they had a perfectly good Hebrew one already?
That might be a testable hypothesis, but offhand I don't think Egyptian influence is zero and other influences "jammed". The idea that the Torah is influenced by culture that came after its closing date of 1499 has never borne itself out, though there have been imaginative attempts.
His reasons are again very ephemeral. Actually, Akhenaten was influenced by the Hyksos monotheism (which Hatshepsut went on record for abominating) and so I would hold contrarily that he had the derivative monotheism. If Aten is the universal god, he is one with Yahweh who is depicted as the universal god, and neither can be advantaged against the other.
And that's it! He goes right to the sales pitch. No honest exploration, just US dollars. Wow. There is a Kindle preview, which gives locations out of 509 as follows:
1 Cover 9 Title 32 Dedication 50 Bio 65 What Really Happened 86 Copyright 105 TOC 153 Intro 173 Ex. 11:1 198 Village of Mizraim 222 Arabian tribe 242 Faraon vs. Pr-aa 278 No Pharaoh (again) 260 Egyptology false 283 How could Egypt hit wrath? 300 Maat 311 Good/right, idolatry/tyranny 330 Seeming paradox 347 Egypt would've converted 364 1400-1200 382 Not New Kingdom, not Ramses II 401 Not Merneptah, not Thutmose III 421 Not Israelite pyramids 442 LXX; Egypt not Misr 471 I heard Maat 492 Pyramids damn sure included whenever Egypt visited
260: "Almost all of the academic work of Eyptologists carried out over the last two centuries or so, is simply based on a false premise."
Nope, Preston, I don't see myself buying it. I'll give you some leeway and concessions where I might agree, which I'll mention in the next paragraph. But what I see first is someone proud of Egypt and eager to excise a negative view of one Pharaoh from being overlaid on a giant history. Instead of facing facts he simply denies the whole deal. Now, at least he doesn't deny that Thutmose and all successive rulers were indeed Pr-aa, but he denies that "Pharaoh" is an appropriate parallel term and argues that it means an obscure Arabic ruler. So, out of respect for his being Egyptian, I'll be happy to call Apophis (Apepi) the "Pr-aa", i.e. the court, rather than the "Pharaoh", in this context (though I'll use the usual term in other contexts). But he's not going to carry the argument if his primary proof is a few Arabic-Hebrew convergences (which is natural, both being Semitic) that you have to pay for. Etymology is my strong suit and I can spot a phony equivalence quickly, if I do say so myself.
But what's happening is that he tries to prove too much. Let's agree that the legend of the LXX is wrong and self-advancing for giving far too much credit to the miraculous and undercuts the likely actual process by which the text originated. Let's agree that Josephus was wrong and self-advancing to say the Israelites built the pyramids. Let's agree that Jewish Hollywood is wrong and self-advancing to say the same in Gods and Kings. Let's agree that "Judeo-Christians" were wrong and self-advancing to seize upon Ramses II and Merneptah because they saw the name Ramses in the Bible and thought it must've happened close to Ramses the Great, when that is not stated nor required. Let's agree that Judeo-Christians beating up on Pharaoh Apepi are wrong and self-advancing because ignoring their own equally heinous sins of rebellion. See, that's a few concessions, and around here we say we're also "noticing" a "pattern". And guess what: all of those concessions don't excuse an Egyptian from being wrong and self-advancing in the other direction.
To find the truth we'll need more than one contrarian who disagrees with everyone and can't spell "Karnak" in his preview text. I will be happy to file that there exists an alternate theory where Misraim and Faraon and a couple other words have linkages to Yemen. But if he's not willing to let this theory flow freely, it suggests it's not worth paying for and he's not interested in truth spreading. Searches indicate that the core points of his theory are not public but are all paywalled. An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and he's not giving that; he appears just to be an Egypt apologist who wants you to know that Egypt is a great and misunderstood empire.
But the fact is that Egypt did have two intermediate periods of weakness and bare continuity. It did degrade and renew and then fall tragically with Cleopatra. It did have hundreds of kings of varying competencies, and Apepi was not necessarily worse than the rest, but (the text shows) he was made a didactic example of. During his reign, the Thera volcano exploded (exactly 1540, dated by Hugh Schofield, and I say on 8 Sep due to the Rhind Papyrus). This was regionally catastrophic and left radioactive dust throughout the Mediterranean, still useful for layer-dating because it's so unique. (You can go to Avaris today and find the exact same dust that Moses cast into the air to cause plagues twice, it's that distinctive.) All ten plagues can be naturalistic upheavals responsive to this historic eruption. So both the hardness and historically attested downfall of Apepi and the explosion of Thera were contemporary, and they are karmically connected as well. And that is no curse on the other hundreds of kings of Egypt, it's just another didactic event, and that's what the Bible makes it. For Ezzat to ignore the many fluctuations in Egypt's fortunes is to reject a whole jar of ointment just to remove one perceived irritation in it.
Let's see how many characters I have left.
Because it has historical value for my references, validated by other sources.
You proposed an alternate hypothesis without data. That's where I file it for now.
No hills mentioned in Egypt. Deut. 11:10-11 contrasts hills of Israel with garden-like land of Egypt. What are you thinking of?
No drought mentioned in Egypt. But: Following the very short reign of Nehesy, most scholars – including Manfred Bietak and Kim Ryholt – agree that the Delta region was struck by a prolonged famine and perhaps a plague lasting until the end of the 14th Dynasty. Oh look, same dynasty as Joseph's famine internally dated 1756-1749.
Gen. 37:25: "Ishmeelites". "To carry it down to Egypt". Duh.
The earliest confirmed instance where pr ꜥꜣ is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to the eighteenth dynasty king, Akhenaten (reigned c. 1353–1336 BCE), that is addressed to "Great House, L, W, H, the Lord". If you mean Egyptians didn't speak Hebrew, well, duh.
Solomon's son was attacked in this city by Shoshenq I, 925 BC, exactly when the Bible says under the Hebrew name Shishak.
Of course not, it was 1499-1492. Right when Canaanite culture collapsed.
I didn't think you would buy it. But, you also have a lot to explain when it comes to numbers, and that's right out of the OT. The event the book of Exodus itself and the Book of Numbers indicate that the people, the Israelites who left Egypt, that there were 600,000 men of military age. So, you're not talking about old man, you're not talking about children and you're not talking about women. Six hundred thousand so you add all the others, what is that? two and a half, three million people? and one problem is that's more than the population of Egypt would have been by a long shot. And apart from that, when you think three million people you expect there's going some kinds of remains like pottery or weaponry or you know, stuff. I mean we have stuff from what, well before that time for other civilizations. There's nothing regarding Exodus and so that's that. It does cause problems for you, think that anything like what the Bible describes happened it's a problem because you'd expect some remains.
Regardless if you buy it or not, Palestine was not the homeland for the kingdom of Israel and the stories of its early patriarchs. The inception of Judaism and the stories of Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses happened in Arabia and Yemen. The blatant failure of Biblical archaeology in the land of Palestine is primarily due to a premise completely flawed and a Bible (Septaguint) cunningly tampered with. By the same evil creeps who manipulate our news and educational materials today. People like Leon Black, the Jewish billionaire who is accused of raping a 7-year-old girl in the Epstein Files and who owns Lifetouch. The biggest school picture company in America that photographs millions of kids each year. Like I said they always lie, but you go on and keep believing them. Rather than Dr. Ashraf Ezzat who indeed may be proud of Egypt, that doesn't mean he would make things up. Or Prof. James Henry Breasted an archaeologist, Egyptologist, and historian.
Good questions. Let me first separate one question out: Feel free to pick on individual Jews and Jewish organizations, because that is one purpose for this forum, picking on anyone who conspires evilly regardless of race. It's very easy for an objective person to do this without being collectivist or judging the innocent (e.g. the children of a race) along with the guilty. For that reason, people who don't are easily identified as nonobjective.
Again, my take on where to trust history comes from the fact that I made an irrevocable commitment to Jesus, even knowing that he's identified as Jewish. Only he can revoke it. What he says about the Hebrew Scripture is my rule. But I've never needed to fear truth because the truth has always backed up his claims. So I'm happy to look into details and I'm motivated to consider any evidence that I could be wrong, because I am committed to all truth. If Jesus should fail me, that might conceivably be him revoking my commitment, via demonstration of his impotence; but he has always revealed himself as potentate.
Yes, population demographics are a much more important field than realized. A quick unchecked quote comes up: "The total population, they say, was of old about 7 million and the number has remained no less down to our day" (Diodorus Siculus, Historical Library 1.31.8). Modern estimates are a bit lower. Recall that the "Israelite" exodus officially included a mixed multitude of non-Jews along with descendants of Israel. Though the nomadic-community influx of Jacob's family could have been almost 10,000, to get to 2 million would have required conversion as well as birth. Though many were Egyptians, this group were required to consent to Moses's laws and to be circumcised, and the entire polity were counted as "Israel" regardless of heritage, because all were naturalized equally; and the desert wandering cemented this identification and rooted out rebellions. So this number is not immodest.
Since Ramses does have archeological evidence of sudden abandonment by Semite dwellers, this implies that there was a massive population hit via the Hyksos expulsion, even on Manetho's numbers. On the above I'd be comfortable with 30%, while 60% would not be impossible, and 15% could be defended by conservatives. If you read Ahmose's boasting about how he arrived at a devastated region and took over, unifying the people, it's no surprise. Look, Scored itself has had attrition of 95% in some regions and 60% in others, and is still going strong; people do it. Did you know 8% of the population of Nicaragua, which might be 30% of the men of fighting age, entered America this past decade? That's a pretty statistically significant exodus too. I don't think that comparing the largest estimate of Israel's population and the smallest estimate of Egypt's population and claiming contradiction would be sustained, because it admittedly uses two different counting methods. Apples to apples there is no problem.
I already told you it is a standard pottery designation from the exact city of Ramses named by Moses.
What is the difference between exodus and expulsion then?
I said I'd look into that. There's another source I'd heard recently on similar claims that I want to consult. But, takeaway, most of these sources admit Abraham and Moses were real (just misplaced), which contradicts your initial claim. So pick which one you want to defend.
This lacks evidence. We have the original and translated text. There is no alternate manuscript tradition by which tampering with thousands of words would have been a sustainable theory. When you look at admitted document tampering by the Inquisition, by contrast, all kinds of evidence shows what happened and what was original.
I worship exactly one Jew. When he happens to agree with other Jews, that means those other Jews aren't lying on that point.
Medical doctor Ezzat isn't lying, but he is being dramatic. He's saying Egypt has no "pharaoh" when he knows very well and admits that Egypt had a "pr-aa" since the 20th century BC. That's a semantic quibble to increase hits and purchases. On the argument that Egypt has no Israelites, I'll look into it, and yet his sources claim the Israelites back to Abraham's family were indeed still very real, which means the Bible isn't lying even if we interpret its geography wrong. Similarly, Breasted's math is likely based on the same atheist althist invented in the 19th century as if closeted Babylonians came up with the name "Mose", one of the most common Egyptian names but only of a millennium prior. (Let me repeat that list for my own records: Ahmose, Amenmose, Dedumose, Kamose, Ptahmose, Ramose, Thutmose. Several repeated often, and maybe more names exist. But none after about 1000 BC.)
So the sources aren't proving what you infer they're proving. If there were a real challenge to a Christian worldview it would be worth considering (which is why I'm taking the Asir hypothesis with more time), but these are not significant and have been ably dealt with by the existing historian community.
(Continuing:)
Of course not, it was 1539. Right when Apepi's dynasty collapsed.
I'll follow up, thanks. Copyright 1985, 1987 PDF edition. TOC looks better than Ezzat's. But most lists of 100 etymology "matches" I review are 90% false and 10% useless.
Not really. There are similarities that both Egypt and Israel took from Hammurabi; but the best expression of Egyptian standards resembling the decalogue occurs in a Book of the Dead of Hatshepsut ca. 1475 BC, after the decalogue is given in 1539 BC. The actual spell 125 is not very decaloguy either. If he fast-forwards the decalogue 1100 years, well then sure, but conservatives don't.
Haven't heard. But since Paul quotes Epimenides and Aratus, sometimes with attribution, what would be wrong if it were true that Solomon quoted Amenemope without attribution? However, the argument that Amenemope is older is based on one "unquestionable" dating to the 21st dynasty conducted by Jaroslav Cerny, so I'm not going to make a ruling based on a single source, given that others place it much later. However, I do like prima facie the theory that Prov. 22:17 "yom af-atah" ("[this] day, even to thee") might be a corruption of "[Amen-]Em-Opet"*, so that might influence me to favor Egyptian priority. And what of it? 22:17 admits they are "words of the wise" and not necessarily Solomon's, just like 24:23, 30:1, 31:1. Plus, even if one is copying the other, in either direction the copyist is clearly reorganizing and modifying the material to his own purposes, so it's original wisdom in both passages. I'll keep that question open too, as it might be a good Bible study later.
I'm a Jesus guy. Jesus is King of the Jews but he never lied. If he says the Hebrew Scriptures cannot be broken and not even a serif will disappear from them, I believe it, not only because he's always proven himself, but because the Scriptures have passed every test I or anyone has ever thrown at them. I sought out the worst tests and regularly found they were just sour grapes created by people who don't care. I compared them to objections to the Talmud and Quran, and found that there were sour-grapes motives there too, and lack of seeking original culture or comparative religion. But I came to find out that the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures have passed every test of historical authenticity, predictive verification, and moral purity, and the Talmud and Quran, while beautiful and uplifting, don't pass every test. So Jesus is vindicated for me every day I test him. This means I am free to consider the most outrageous blasphemies against him because he's defeated every one of them I've ever considered and because if even one of them stuck I'd need to change my views to acknowledge the full truth. I pursue truth wherever it leads, and, if Jesus were wrong when he said Moses was a great lawgiver and that he himself called Moses down from heaven to talk to him in AD 32, when he said that Abraham was feasting in glory and was still alive to God, I'd accept the truth about it. But funny thing, he always looks and speaks better than every whiner who complains that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about. It's only because of Jesus that I know that all mere men are liars, and he's the only source I have for finding the real truth. I have nothing to fear from learning more. It's only salesmen who talk big and deliver little who have things to fear from the truth.
The Bible Came From Arabia, Kamal Salibi, 1985, 1987 ed.
xv: "As a newcomer to the field of Semitic and Biblical studies, I was guided in the initial stages of my research by two colleagues."
1: "I freely acknowledge that my discovery must remain theoretical until confirmed by archaeological investigation .... Of course, in breaking new ground it is likely that I have committed a number of errors, which hostile critics may seize upon in an effort to discredit my conclusions. I sincerely doubt, however, that such errors are likely to be of such magnitude or substance that they will alter my case."
3: "My argument rests almost entirely upon the assumption that the Hebrew Bible has been consistently mistranslated."
6: "I look forward to the day when archaeologists will excavate some of the sites I mention and hopefully provide further evidence that the true land of the Hebrew Bible is West Arabia, not Palestine."
7: "Nearly all the Biblical place-names I could think of were concentrated in an area approximately 600 kilometres long and 200 kilometres wide .... All the co-ordinates of the places involved, as described in the Hebrew Bible, were also traceable there — a fact of the first importance, as these co-ordinates have never really been identified in the countries hitherto believed to have been the lands of the Bible. Moreover, I could not find such a concentration of Biblical place-names, usually in their original Hebrew form, in any other part of the Near East."
9: "‘Jegar-sahadutha’ (Aramaic ygr shdwt’) ... ‘Galeed’ (Hebrew gl‘d) and ‘Mizpah’ (Hebrew h-msph) .... All three names are still carried today by three little-known villages in the same vicinity on the maritime slopes of Asir, in the region of Rijal Alma‘ (Rigal Alma‘), west of Abha (Abha). Their names are: Far‘at Al Shahda (’I shd’), meaning ‘god is the witness’ or ‘god of the witness’, the Arabic pr‘t or pr‘h denoting a mound or hill, equivalent in meaning to the Aramaic ygr; al-Ja‘d (’l-g‘d), which is an Arabicised metathesis of gl‘d; and al-Madhaf (mdp; cf. msph)."
14: "The battle of Carchemish ... took place near Taif, in the southern Hijaz, where two neighbouring villages, Qarr (qr) and Qamashah (qms), still stand. Thus, I would maintain, the Biblical ‘Carchemish’ is certainly not the Hittite Kargamesa, now Jerablus, on the Euphrates, as is traditionally believed."
23: "In [Beersheba] whose name features prominently in the patriarchal narratives of Genesis, and whose origins must therefore go back at least to the late Bronze Age, archaeological excavation has revealed on the exact site materials dating from no earlier than the late Roman period."
26: "Ideally, the full text of the Hebrew Bible must be so analysed, but this involves work for more than one lifetime."
26: "The fact that the Hebrew Bible relates the history of the ancient Israelites in West Arabia does not mean that Judaism had no base in Palestine in Biblical times. It did .... There are clear Biblical hints regarding the growth of a strong Jewish community in Palestine, starting perhaps in the tenth century B.C. ... The reconstruction of the early Jewish history in Palestine is not possible from these texts, nor indeed from any other records so far available."
51: "Kraeling, p. 80 ...: In late Roman times there was a district Geraritike, evidently so named because it was composed primarily of the old Gerar territory."
53-54: "The site of the Biblical Gerar in Palestine has not yet been satisfactorily identified, and no place there continues to carry anything resembling this name."
54: "Msrym denotes any of several locations in West Arabia, including the village of Misramah ... or that of Masr."
55: "Strabo reports ... Gallus reached a place called the ‘Seven Wells’ .... Philby noted the existence of Shaba‘ah."
60: "There is no Gerar near Gaza, in Palestine. Among several which are found in Asir, however, one (al-Qararah) is the Gerar of Genesis 20 and 26 and 2 Chronicles 14, and another (any of four called Ghurar, al-Jarar, Ghirar or al-Qararah) is that of Genesis 10."
WP: "Tel Haror is generally accepted as the site of ancient Gerar. Nevertheless, some other places in the vicinity, between Gaza and Beersheba, have also been suggested."
63: "In the field of Biblical archaeology and its related discipline, palaeography, there is ample opportunity not only for error, but for perpetuating it almost indefinitely."
64: "It is wrong to draw historical conclusions on the basis of inconclusive archaeological evidence."
68-69: "The ‘Moabite Stone’ (the name itself is a misnomer) was set up in Qarhoh (qrhh) by Mesha, king of Moab (ms‘ mlk m’b) - so the inscription on it says .... The Qarhoh in question is apparently the present-day Jahra (ghr), in the area where the stone was found."
WP: "The Mesha Stele, also known as the Moabite Stone, .... was discovered intact by Frederick Augustus Klein, an Anglican missionary, at the site of ancient Dibon (now Dhiban, Jordan), in August 1868."
69: "Mesha describes himself in the inscription as not only king of Moab, but also as a dybny, i.e., as a native of dybn. Dibyan (dbyn) today is also a village in Wadi Adam, not far from Umm al-Yab. So far, readers of the ‘Moabite Stone’ have assumed that dybn is the present village of Dhiban (dbn), in Transjordan, north of where the stone was found. I would suggest, however, that this Dhiban was called after the old Dibyan of the Hijaz after Mesha and his followers arrived to settle there."
72: "The Amarna place-names only make a collective fit in West Arabia. The interested reader may care to examine a table of thirty such names, identified one by one by location."
76: "By now, I hope the reader is willing to concede that there may be sufficient evidence to justify at least a reassessment of the hitherto universally held belief that the events described in the Hebrew Bible relate mainly to Palestine. My next task is to establish the Arabian setting of the Hebrew Bible as a whole, hoping to convince the reader further .... I intend ... to show how this Tihamah is actually the Tehom mentioned in more than thirty passages of the text of the Hebrew Bible."
WP: "Tihamah is the Red Sea coastal plain of the Arabian Peninsula from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb. Tihāmat is the Proto-Semitic language's term for 'sea'. Tiamat was the ancient Mesopotamian god of the sea and of chaos. The word appears in masculine form in the Hebrew Bible as təhōm (Genesis 1:2), meaning 'primordial ocean, abyss'."
76-77: "Hayam (hym) ... denotes porous, sandy soil unable to retain water, that is to say soil which remains ‘thirsty’ .... In Arabic, the name of the West Arabian coastal desert should have been Hayam. Its actual name, Tihamah, is a survival of the Biblical Tehom (thwm)."
77-78: "Tehom makes the best sense, wherever it occurs in the canonical Hebrew Bible, as the old Semitic name for the West Arabian coastlands which are called today Tihamah."
78: "The mistranslation here is that of the Revised Standard Version, hereafter RSV .... 1 He will bless you (ybrkk) with the blessings of heaven above (brkt smym m-'l), blessings of the deep that couches beneath (brkt thwm rbst tht), blessings of the breasts and the womb (brkt sdym w-rhm) (Genesis 49:25b). 2 Blessed by the Lord (or by Yahweh) be his land (mbrkt yhwh ’rsw), with the choicest gifts of heaven above (m-mgd smym m-‘l), and the deep that couches beneath (m-thwm rbst tht) (Deuteronomy 33:13b)."
79: "One finds that they actually involve not ‘blessings’, but definitions of the territory or territorial claim of this tribe: 1 He shall settle you (ybrkk) in the Rakkah of Samayin from above (b-rkt smym m-‘l), in the Rakkah of the Tihamah of Rabidah below (b-rkt thwm rbst tht), in the Rakkah of Thadyayn and Rahm (b-rkt sdym w-rhm). 2 From Barakah shall be his land (m-brkt yhwh ’rsw), from the Miqaddah of Samayin (m-mgd smym); from the ridge (m-tl); and from the Tihamah of Rabidah below (w-m-thwm rbst tht) .... I concede there could be a play on words in each of these two definitions of the territory of the Joseph tribe .... In the two passages just cited, the Hebrew ybrkk (see note 8) can mean both ‘he shall settle you’, and ‘he shall bless you’."
80: "Yet the fact remains that the two ‘blessings’ of the Joseph tribe, in Genesis and Deuteronomy, do cite place-names, and hence yield a sense that is concrete. Whatever figurative sense might have been intended by punning, it must be regarded as being of secondary importance, if any."
86: "The event is reported in the standard translations as follows: The waters coming down from above (m-l-m‘lh) stood and rose up in a heap far off (nd ’hd h-rhq m ’d) at Adam (’dm), the city that is beside Zarethan (srtn), and those flowing down toward the sea of the Arabah (‘l ym ‘rbh), the Salt Sea (ym h-mlh), were wholly cut off; and the people passed over opposite Jericho (yryhw) (RSV)."
87: "Joshua 3:16 must be retranslated as follows: The waters coming down from al-Ma‘lah stood, they rose up in one dam extending from Wadd, at Adam, the city that is beside Raznah, and those flowing down west of Ghurabah, west o f al-Milhah, were wholly cut off; and the people passed over opposite Rakhyah."
92: "Msrym ... is rarely used in the Hebrew Bible to refer to Egypt, as commonly assumed. Where it does not refer to Misramah near Abha (see Chapters 4 and 13), it refers to Masr, in Wadi Bishah, or to Madrum (mdrm), in the Ghamid highlands (see Chapter 14). The Biblical ‘Pharaoh’ (pr‘h), as will be suggested later, was not the ruler of Egypt, but a West Arabian god."
93: "Certainly, a ‘Pharaoh’ tribe, called the Far‘a (pr'), is still to be found in Wadi Bishah today, carrying the name of the ancient god or chiefs of the region."
95: "The Jordan (also h-yrdn) where Naaman of Aram ‘dipped himself seven times’ .... could only have been a stream or pool of water. In this case, the term yrdn derives from the same Semitic root yrd."
98: "In Arabic, whd yields the substantives wahd (whd) and wahdah (whdh, with the feminine suffix), meaning an ‘area of flat, low-lying land; ravine’, while the Biblical yhwdh, from yhd, must have been an ancient Semitic topographical term carrying more or less the same meaning."
100: "Pashhur (pshwr) ... is today clearly the oasis of al-Harshaf (hrsp), in Wadi Habuna, north of Wadi Najran."
108: "Altogether, of the 130 recognised place-names in the Ezra-Nehemiah lists, which I have correlated with those West Arabian villages cited above, the identification of only a few remains uncertain. What is perhaps even more important, however, is that no more than a handful of names have been identified with locations in Palestine (in Simons, only ten) .... The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation."
That's about halfway through so I'll leave it there for now as a quote list without significant analysis. You might guess my first impressions from my selections. However, my first note is that you're moving from an Egyptian apologist to an Arabian apologist (if you use too many sources partial to Islam you might get suspected of Islam; you're on the most skeptical site on the internet, doubt it). My second note is, as before, that Salibi is quite the literalist, upholding the existence of all the Biblical peoples, just putting them in Asir in Arabia; so it's hardly compatible to use him as evidence that Abraham and Moses didn't exist. It appears you've shifted the goalpost from your initial implication, "Did Abraham or Moses ever exist? perhaps they're all made up for the story", or from your rather contradictory acceptance of both positions, "Moses and the tribes (Israelites) were Arabs from Yemen .... [AI:] There is no proof of [Abraham and Moses] existence outside of the Bible." If your purpose is to debunk Judaism (and perhaps Christianity) by saying it was all Arabian, that doesn't debunk any miracle or claim other than geography, which is not relevant except for some Zionists. So I'm still unsure of your endgame. But still skimming the text.
u/PrestonHart3rd