Sorry but I feel you missed a few things with this reply.
First you say the algorithm is the regulation, but then you go on to talk about how the shit coins have flawed algorithms. You also address the long wait times and cost per transaction, thank you for your honesty and genuine intellectual approach to them. These are huge issues that require fixing for as you say this beta version.
Gold and silver could drop to zero as a currency but they haven’t totally lost value. My electronics can still be plated in the gold for corrosion resistance. My water blocks in my computer can be silver coated for thermal transfer. My gold can be turned into ear rings and bracelets and traded for a cow. My silver can burn melted and made into silver bullets in case my mother in law gets a little werewolfy. In their natural as is state, they have a use. And therefore a value. Crypto does not. It replaces a different currency, adds the value of ease of online and therefor global transactions, and some claim true anonymity. But the bitcoins only value is as a currency. It’s worth X USD. Convertible to your fiat of choice as well, but taking it out of wherever tends to require a fee. If you can even get it out.
I have friends trading coins on online markets, I’ve stayed out of that. Not going to say their experience is the same as everyone’s but I honestly got tired of listening to the bragging over some huge deals and the bitching over the losses, the pump and dumps, whale watching, movements at 3am, you name it. Plus all these coins are only increased in value when people buy them with either fiat currency from one nation or other, or with a different coin that was either purchased with again fiat or mined at great cost of electricity which is still having its bill paid in fiat. Very few self sustaining power plant based crypto mining facilities out there.
As for the “run off” part I’m referring to people who create then push a shit coin, get early adopters and people to invest, claiming high value and future speculation, then when they have enough money soaked, drain the value through their chosen method and leave everyone else holding the bag full of worthless shit coins. These situations do nothing to remove the Ponzi scheme look for a lot of crypto’s. Mark Cuban famously lost millions in crypto not that long ago, and there’s many other such cases but this is a comment not an essay and i don’t want this to be too long to ever read.
Lastly storing your crypto offline on a wallet on a hard drive in your physical possession. Great. Kinda like hoarding physical gold and silver, in your house. Except the precious metals may decay a few protons but still be there for 10000 years. I’ve had hard drives fail. Two within a month of each other(never buying Seagate again because of it, personal choice due to it pissing me off that much. Was my main computer running 2 drives, both purchased the same day.) People have accidentally lost their drives with their wallet, drive internals fail, solder joints crack, etc. It’s much less secure than a home vault or even a wall safe hidden behind grannies portrait.
To most of us, crypto simply feels like online stocks, with extra steps, and a few more headaches. Sure bank notes have serial numbers but 99% of us never care. An old farmer can give me 5 $20, i give 4 to a pot dealer, who spends one at 7/11, and each time even though the bill is traceable no one records the serial number or even cares. As long as it’s not a fake bill, it’s handed over and transaction done.
First you say the algorithm is the regulation, but then you go on to talk about how the shit coins have flawed algorithms.
So what's wrong with that statement? Flawed algorithms regulate coins in flawed manner, that is why they are not as popular as could be.
Gold and silver could drop to zero as a currency but they haven’t totally lost value.
They will drop it's value if they be allowed only as appliances. Hardly people will exchange gold-plated PCBs, if it will be illegal to have and exchange gold in raw form. Like plutonium. It is useful and even expensive, but you can't use it as a mean of exchange.
Plus all these coins are only increased in value when people buy them with either fiat currency from one nation or other,
Because there is a flaw in algorythm that regulate that coins to be useful mostly for trader games or as long-term savings.
or with a different coin that was either purchased with again fiat or mined at great cost of electricity which is still having its bill paid in fiat.
That is another flaw - proof-of-work coins need a lot of computing power. However, even in that version, I know few people who use mining rigs as heaters that not only heat their houses as ordinary heater, but also return some part of paid electric bill in coins. They even don't care that miners does not pay for itself, any amount saved on heating is good enough, because usual heater will return absolutely nothing with the same electricity consumption.
As for the “run off” part I’m referring to people who create then push a shit coin, get early adopters and people to invest, claiming high value and future speculation, then when they have enough money soaked, drain the value through their chosen method and leave everyone else holding the bag full of worthless shit coins.
Don't use that shitcoins, what is the problem? Nobody force you to fall in new coin with suspisious creator.
I’ve had hard drives fail.
Do you know about backups on different hard drives and other media? Do you know that you could even print your walllet as QR codes on paper and put it in a safe just like cash? Inability and laziness to use accessible ways to save your coins is not a coins fault.
People have accidentally lost their drives with their wallet, drive internals fail, solder joints crack, etc
It is only that people fault, nothing more. I'm shure that kind of people permanently loose different digital info again and again but still don't want to do backups.
To most of us, crypto simply feels like online stocks, with extra steps, and a few more headaches.
Exactly. And that is why current version of crypto will never replace cash. But that does not mean that idea of cryptocurrency is bad and wrong. We are on the earliest stages of cryptocurrencies development, just like ancient people who are trying to use a rare sea-shells as money.
Firstly, if the algorithms are flawed and they are the regulator, that means to most of us that the regulator is flawed. Same as current fiat grant you, but we’ve had thousands of years and trillions of transactions with fiat and it’s flaws are mostly understood. Explaining fraud and theft to someone is rather easy. Explaining proof of work crypto to someone who’s a complete newbie is much harder.
A government prohibiting the use and trade of an item is dealt with by the ruled over people getting mad enough to demand change or remove and replace those leaders. Revolutions have happened for less.
People using proof of work coins to heat their home and not care is their choice, perhaps the coins they mine will be valuable, perhaps not. I guess it’s like buying quarter lotto tickets. You don’t care if you win, you do it for the fun and if you win, bonus. But as far as heaters go, it’s the worst solution. Tying up that many resources for the heat output is like buying a national park to make a single box of tooth picks. A simple space heater is cheap, effective and shuts off when desired temp is reached, the miner is 24/7. The electricity to power the mining rig comes from somewhere be it coal plants, hydroelectric nuclear or solar, all of which have costs nevermind the copper and steel lines to connect everything. I’ve had to use electric heaters in my old house even with a gas furnace for main heat, I would have needed 4 or more mining rigs to keep my water from freezing rather than one easy to replace space heater. But at least they get some use out their mining rig I guess. Until summer when it becomes excess load on their A/C.
No one forcing us to use shit coins, this is true. I’m not using any. But how do you know which is a shit coin and which is the next bit coin? Average Joe doesn’t have time to sit on his phone or computer 24/7 researching and looking for scams.
Printing off your bitcoins for backup is an okay backup, but it completely erases the point of them in the first place, being a digital means of exchange. Cloning the hard drive for a backup is agreed the best option, that’s why when my drives failed I didn’t lose anything but a few recent files, I still had my old pre-upgrade drives and had backups of all the important things. It’s still like pulling teeth to get smaller businesses to even do that’s much for critical files sadly, speaking from experience. Hard drive recovery utilities are awesome but not failure proof, total agreement with you when it comes to backups.
But printing off a wallet and cloning a hard drive is another step average people aren’t willing to do. I get the impression you’re tech savvy, as an I but the average consumer is not. Most people want a computer to be like a fridge or a toaster. Plug it in, it works. Use whenever I want. Make my toast. Chill my milk. Load those memes. It’s not so much the coins fault as it is the coins flaw the time it requires more work to use properly. People are LAZY. Devices and services that aid them to be lazier do well. More intensified use of something falls to niche markets.
Government banning things doesn’t tend to work out well either. Alcohol prohibition failed miserably. The war on drugs is a joke and weed is legal here and in several us states as well as other countries. China has banned crypto currency. But the black market always thrives. Plutonium is banned because of its use for nuclear weapons and reactors, and because of the sheeples fear of such things they’re okay with the that’s. But for the previous examples, they keep drinking, smoking and mining crypto. Laws are only a barrier when enforced and most only stop honest criminals.
I don’t see crypto in current form changing form the better. Too useful for the traders and “supreme intellectuals” who see it as a way to remove government control from their lives, as they use it on government installed internet infrastructure. Too many people able to swindle and Ponzi scheme and cheat others for their own end to make its current incarnation perfect. You basically have to start from scratch, only now you have the albatross around your neck of all this mess that’s come before.
Explaining proof of work crypto to someone who’s a complete newbie is much harder.
Hardly it is a flaw. Explaining how some stupid whatsapp works is much harder than that, but that does not prevent sheeps from using it. And using it sheeps loose much more than stupid money.
Revolutions have happened for less.
Don't remember any revolutions or even any backlash on prohibition of circulation of radioactive metals. Nobody could prevent governments to state that gold is now radioactive "because of science" and cause of cancer and diarhea. And all sheeple willingly will run to the "gold utilisation points" with their gold and will immidiately report on neighbour who "harm people having gold".
Tying up that many resources for the heat output is like buying a national park to make a single box of tooth picks.
Indeed. That is transaction cost flaw that should be fixed in future versions.
But still try to get the idea that people willingly go through that complexity to get that coins. If there was no demand in uncontrolled currency, people never would have been do that insane things.
Printing off your bitcoins for backup is an okay backup, but it completely erases the point of them in the first place, being a digital means of exchange.
Really no. Printing a wallet devirtualize cyrpto into reality. :) That paper is a complete representation of coins. You could use it like cash, just provide a password to that printed wallet.
You could even create a dozen of wallets, put some some small sum in each and print them. You literally print your own cash that have some real value.
Cloning the hard drive for a backup is agreed the best option
You don't need to clone your drive, just copy only important files and that's all. For crypto the only file you need to backup is wallet.dat.
But printing off a wallet and cloning a hard drive is another step average people aren’t willing to do.
So, why they whining about crypto, if they don't want to keep it correctly? It's just like entering a plane cockpit and began to complain about complexity of controls when you "just want to fly and that's all".
People are LAZY.
And stupid. So it is illogical to pity them, when they try to use things intended for clever and not lazy people and fail. If you are lazy and stupid - don't use things you don't know how to use. Or pay somebody to use them for you.
Alcohol prohibition failed miserably. The war on drugs is a joke and weed is legal here and in several us states as well as other countries.
I doubt that prohibition was real intent of government. When government really want to prohibit something, it works without problems. Again, look at radioactive materials. The picture is completely different from alcohol, drugs or even guns.
Plutonium is banned because of its use for nuclear weapons and reactors, and because of the sheeples fear of such things they’re okay with the that’s.
No, it is banned because it is a good and long-lasting source of energy that could make people completely energy independent. In no case government want a household that needs nothing from corporations to exist without falling to stone age.
I don’t see crypto in current form changing form the better.
Me too. Current version will be inevitably replaced by more advanced one. It can't be fixed. Only after few iterations crypto will be ready for use by any sheeple. It should pass its way, just like computers or other complex technologies.
As for sheeple who fall into traps of greedy swindlers who use new technologies to grab peoples money, there is nothing new at all. It happens right now with that AI crap, or "quantum computing", f.e., but only a crypto painted in black by media. Because idea of cryptocurrencies is dangerous for them. It gives people a hope of currency independence.
Been enjoying this discourse, it’s great finding someone “on the other side” and having it be civil and informative rather than the usual internet “kys you’re just on the other side of the sprectrum reeeee!” so for that, thanks!
A few things, printing off crypto I also saw as ripe for fraud. If I print off the same bitcoin qr code/address/whatever for redemption by someone else, and print two of them and give them to two different people, the first one to redeem gets paid and the second guy gets screwed. Rather small amount of this happening I’m sure but it is a possibility to watch out for.
Yes copying only the needed file for backup is all ya need, I was still lost in the memory of when my drives failed and I was able to simply slap the old drive with OS and data partitions back in my computer and fire it up like nothing happened. When that’s the case, yeah I strongly push a cloned drive for immediate recovery and progression to hard drive recovery tools to regain anything lost since the last backup. Having multiple drives with the same wallet or wallets on them can be hard to manage to make sure they’re all updated, keeping it simple like having two drives and copying to both is fairly easy.
People being lazy is a bad thing but when you want wide spread adoption, having it be hard and needing to be clever doesn’t get you adopted as fast or at all in some cases. These mindless sheep are easily mislead but still drive heavy dangerous cars because they made it easy to do so. Power steering, power brakes, automatic transmission, electric starter vs hand crank, power windows, all done to make life easier and as a result cars are quite popular. Older models that require manual shifting and that aforementioned hand crank are still around but far less popular. For a currency to be really useful you need it accepted everywhere. Bitcoin being like Discover charge isn’t a good thing.
Computers were once hard to use. I’m lucky and got to start using one when I was 4, but looking around now it’s the techies, gamers and those who need them who use computers. Everyone seems to think a cell phone is superior and while they’re wrong, popular opinion doesn’t require facts just a feeling of superiority. Unless digital currency is as easy as tapping your debit card or credit card and accepted everywhere across a country like fiat cash is, it will remain a niche.
Sorry but I feel you missed a few things with this reply. First you say the algorithm is the regulation, but then you go on to talk about how the shit coins have flawed algorithms. You also address the long wait times and cost per transaction, thank you for your honesty and genuine intellectual approach to them. These are huge issues that require fixing for as you say this beta version.
Gold and silver could drop to zero as a currency but they haven’t totally lost value. My electronics can still be plated in the gold for corrosion resistance. My water blocks in my computer can be silver coated for thermal transfer. My gold can be turned into ear rings and bracelets and traded for a cow. My silver can burn melted and made into silver bullets in case my mother in law gets a little werewolfy. In their natural as is state, they have a use. And therefore a value. Crypto does not. It replaces a different currency, adds the value of ease of online and therefor global transactions, and some claim true anonymity. But the bitcoins only value is as a currency. It’s worth X USD. Convertible to your fiat of choice as well, but taking it out of wherever tends to require a fee. If you can even get it out.
I have friends trading coins on online markets, I’ve stayed out of that. Not going to say their experience is the same as everyone’s but I honestly got tired of listening to the bragging over some huge deals and the bitching over the losses, the pump and dumps, whale watching, movements at 3am, you name it. Plus all these coins are only increased in value when people buy them with either fiat currency from one nation or other, or with a different coin that was either purchased with again fiat or mined at great cost of electricity which is still having its bill paid in fiat. Very few self sustaining power plant based crypto mining facilities out there.
As for the “run off” part I’m referring to people who create then push a shit coin, get early adopters and people to invest, claiming high value and future speculation, then when they have enough money soaked, drain the value through their chosen method and leave everyone else holding the bag full of worthless shit coins. These situations do nothing to remove the Ponzi scheme look for a lot of crypto’s. Mark Cuban famously lost millions in crypto not that long ago, and there’s many other such cases but this is a comment not an essay and i don’t want this to be too long to ever read.
Lastly storing your crypto offline on a wallet on a hard drive in your physical possession. Great. Kinda like hoarding physical gold and silver, in your house. Except the precious metals may decay a few protons but still be there for 10000 years. I’ve had hard drives fail. Two within a month of each other(never buying Seagate again because of it, personal choice due to it pissing me off that much. Was my main computer running 2 drives, both purchased the same day.) People have accidentally lost their drives with their wallet, drive internals fail, solder joints crack, etc. It’s much less secure than a home vault or even a wall safe hidden behind grannies portrait.
To most of us, crypto simply feels like online stocks, with extra steps, and a few more headaches. Sure bank notes have serial numbers but 99% of us never care. An old farmer can give me 5 $20, i give 4 to a pot dealer, who spends one at 7/11, and each time even though the bill is traceable no one records the serial number or even cares. As long as it’s not a fake bill, it’s handed over and transaction done.
So what's wrong with that statement? Flawed algorithms regulate coins in flawed manner, that is why they are not as popular as could be.
They will drop it's value if they be allowed only as appliances. Hardly people will exchange gold-plated PCBs, if it will be illegal to have and exchange gold in raw form. Like plutonium. It is useful and even expensive, but you can't use it as a mean of exchange.
Because there is a flaw in algorythm that regulate that coins to be useful mostly for trader games or as long-term savings.
That is another flaw - proof-of-work coins need a lot of computing power. However, even in that version, I know few people who use mining rigs as heaters that not only heat their houses as ordinary heater, but also return some part of paid electric bill in coins. They even don't care that miners does not pay for itself, any amount saved on heating is good enough, because usual heater will return absolutely nothing with the same electricity consumption.
Don't use that shitcoins, what is the problem? Nobody force you to fall in new coin with suspisious creator.
Do you know about backups on different hard drives and other media? Do you know that you could even print your walllet as QR codes on paper and put it in a safe just like cash? Inability and laziness to use accessible ways to save your coins is not a coins fault.
It is only that people fault, nothing more. I'm shure that kind of people permanently loose different digital info again and again but still don't want to do backups.
Exactly. And that is why current version of crypto will never replace cash. But that does not mean that idea of cryptocurrency is bad and wrong. We are on the earliest stages of cryptocurrencies development, just like ancient people who are trying to use a rare sea-shells as money.
Firstly, if the algorithms are flawed and they are the regulator, that means to most of us that the regulator is flawed. Same as current fiat grant you, but we’ve had thousands of years and trillions of transactions with fiat and it’s flaws are mostly understood. Explaining fraud and theft to someone is rather easy. Explaining proof of work crypto to someone who’s a complete newbie is much harder.
A government prohibiting the use and trade of an item is dealt with by the ruled over people getting mad enough to demand change or remove and replace those leaders. Revolutions have happened for less.
People using proof of work coins to heat their home and not care is their choice, perhaps the coins they mine will be valuable, perhaps not. I guess it’s like buying quarter lotto tickets. You don’t care if you win, you do it for the fun and if you win, bonus. But as far as heaters go, it’s the worst solution. Tying up that many resources for the heat output is like buying a national park to make a single box of tooth picks. A simple space heater is cheap, effective and shuts off when desired temp is reached, the miner is 24/7. The electricity to power the mining rig comes from somewhere be it coal plants, hydroelectric nuclear or solar, all of which have costs nevermind the copper and steel lines to connect everything. I’ve had to use electric heaters in my old house even with a gas furnace for main heat, I would have needed 4 or more mining rigs to keep my water from freezing rather than one easy to replace space heater. But at least they get some use out their mining rig I guess. Until summer when it becomes excess load on their A/C.
No one forcing us to use shit coins, this is true. I’m not using any. But how do you know which is a shit coin and which is the next bit coin? Average Joe doesn’t have time to sit on his phone or computer 24/7 researching and looking for scams.
Printing off your bitcoins for backup is an okay backup, but it completely erases the point of them in the first place, being a digital means of exchange. Cloning the hard drive for a backup is agreed the best option, that’s why when my drives failed I didn’t lose anything but a few recent files, I still had my old pre-upgrade drives and had backups of all the important things. It’s still like pulling teeth to get smaller businesses to even do that’s much for critical files sadly, speaking from experience. Hard drive recovery utilities are awesome but not failure proof, total agreement with you when it comes to backups.
But printing off a wallet and cloning a hard drive is another step average people aren’t willing to do. I get the impression you’re tech savvy, as an I but the average consumer is not. Most people want a computer to be like a fridge or a toaster. Plug it in, it works. Use whenever I want. Make my toast. Chill my milk. Load those memes. It’s not so much the coins fault as it is the coins flaw the time it requires more work to use properly. People are LAZY. Devices and services that aid them to be lazier do well. More intensified use of something falls to niche markets.
Government banning things doesn’t tend to work out well either. Alcohol prohibition failed miserably. The war on drugs is a joke and weed is legal here and in several us states as well as other countries. China has banned crypto currency. But the black market always thrives. Plutonium is banned because of its use for nuclear weapons and reactors, and because of the sheeples fear of such things they’re okay with the that’s. But for the previous examples, they keep drinking, smoking and mining crypto. Laws are only a barrier when enforced and most only stop honest criminals.
I don’t see crypto in current form changing form the better. Too useful for the traders and “supreme intellectuals” who see it as a way to remove government control from their lives, as they use it on government installed internet infrastructure. Too many people able to swindle and Ponzi scheme and cheat others for their own end to make its current incarnation perfect. You basically have to start from scratch, only now you have the albatross around your neck of all this mess that’s come before.
Hardly it is a flaw. Explaining how some stupid whatsapp works is much harder than that, but that does not prevent sheeps from using it. And using it sheeps loose much more than stupid money.
Don't remember any revolutions or even any backlash on prohibition of circulation of radioactive metals. Nobody could prevent governments to state that gold is now radioactive "because of science" and cause of cancer and diarhea. And all sheeple willingly will run to the "gold utilisation points" with their gold and will immidiately report on neighbour who "harm people having gold".
Indeed. That is transaction cost flaw that should be fixed in future versions.
But still try to get the idea that people willingly go through that complexity to get that coins. If there was no demand in uncontrolled currency, people never would have been do that insane things.
Really no. Printing a wallet devirtualize cyrpto into reality. :) That paper is a complete representation of coins. You could use it like cash, just provide a password to that printed wallet.
You could even create a dozen of wallets, put some some small sum in each and print them. You literally print your own cash that have some real value.
You don't need to clone your drive, just copy only important files and that's all. For crypto the only file you need to backup is wallet.dat.
So, why they whining about crypto, if they don't want to keep it correctly? It's just like entering a plane cockpit and began to complain about complexity of controls when you "just want to fly and that's all".
And stupid. So it is illogical to pity them, when they try to use things intended for clever and not lazy people and fail. If you are lazy and stupid - don't use things you don't know how to use. Or pay somebody to use them for you.
I doubt that prohibition was real intent of government. When government really want to prohibit something, it works without problems. Again, look at radioactive materials. The picture is completely different from alcohol, drugs or even guns.
No, it is banned because it is a good and long-lasting source of energy that could make people completely energy independent. In no case government want a household that needs nothing from corporations to exist without falling to stone age.
Me too. Current version will be inevitably replaced by more advanced one. It can't be fixed. Only after few iterations crypto will be ready for use by any sheeple. It should pass its way, just like computers or other complex technologies.
As for sheeple who fall into traps of greedy swindlers who use new technologies to grab peoples money, there is nothing new at all. It happens right now with that AI crap, or "quantum computing", f.e., but only a crypto painted in black by media. Because idea of cryptocurrencies is dangerous for them. It gives people a hope of currency independence.
Been enjoying this discourse, it’s great finding someone “on the other side” and having it be civil and informative rather than the usual internet “kys you’re just on the other side of the sprectrum reeeee!” so for that, thanks! A few things, printing off crypto I also saw as ripe for fraud. If I print off the same bitcoin qr code/address/whatever for redemption by someone else, and print two of them and give them to two different people, the first one to redeem gets paid and the second guy gets screwed. Rather small amount of this happening I’m sure but it is a possibility to watch out for. Yes copying only the needed file for backup is all ya need, I was still lost in the memory of when my drives failed and I was able to simply slap the old drive with OS and data partitions back in my computer and fire it up like nothing happened. When that’s the case, yeah I strongly push a cloned drive for immediate recovery and progression to hard drive recovery tools to regain anything lost since the last backup. Having multiple drives with the same wallet or wallets on them can be hard to manage to make sure they’re all updated, keeping it simple like having two drives and copying to both is fairly easy.
People being lazy is a bad thing but when you want wide spread adoption, having it be hard and needing to be clever doesn’t get you adopted as fast or at all in some cases. These mindless sheep are easily mislead but still drive heavy dangerous cars because they made it easy to do so. Power steering, power brakes, automatic transmission, electric starter vs hand crank, power windows, all done to make life easier and as a result cars are quite popular. Older models that require manual shifting and that aforementioned hand crank are still around but far less popular. For a currency to be really useful you need it accepted everywhere. Bitcoin being like Discover charge isn’t a good thing.
Computers were once hard to use. I’m lucky and got to start using one when I was 4, but looking around now it’s the techies, gamers and those who need them who use computers. Everyone seems to think a cell phone is superior and while they’re wrong, popular opinion doesn’t require facts just a feeling of superiority. Unless digital currency is as easy as tapping your debit card or credit card and accepted everywhere across a country like fiat cash is, it will remain a niche.