Good, let's pursue truth and prove disinformation wrong. I understand what it's like to need to repeat a bunch of points without always wanting to refer back to sources every time, and sometimes I misword things and get corrected, so I can understand your summary paragraph in that respect. However, from my modest experience with Talmud, it mostly looks like exaggerated forms of the extant statements and so improvement is possible. On the one cite I recently tested, as I pointed out the source does not say "his own", it is obviously a legend rather than a doctrinal teaching, and here you have swapped excrement with semen. So I would need to review the other statements in that light. Similarly, your source that suggests the possibility that some Jews in history have engaged in child sacrifice does not compare this to the child sacrifice of every other race of people for balance.
Again describing a whole race as "killers of Christ and the merchants of sin" refers to established facts so tenuously and vaguely that the term may just as well apply to all men. Jews handed him over, Gentiles hung him up, but he laid down his life of his own accord. I mongered in sin and killed Christ. Basic Christianity is that he died for your sins too.
You saw my distancing in the phrase "responsibly reported". I am responsible to the American government insofar as they do not betray my conscience, but I see faults in every institution and in every people-group other than the adopted people of the invisible body of Christ.
As an established body, God delivers us our declaration of war against the devil and his angels in Genesis 3. He also claims all Eve's seed as being on his side of the war unless they defect. My allusions were to say that we do not have such a declaration of war by an established authority against the Jewish people at large and you seem to be at war alone rather than identifying an allegiance as I have. If you are allied with Christ, I do not see him declaring war against his own people, but declaring that they will miss out until the day they welcome him back (the hope on which Romans 9-11 is built). Millions of Jews over the years have in fact welcomed him back, though they are often disowned by their countrymen.
If there were an ideology of destroying others, of course that ideology must be destroyed (rather than any people). Your paragraph reads similarly to exaggerations of the evils within Islam or Christianity and as such calls not for killing but for truth. If the truth is that one people-group is committed to genocide, we don't fight that by committing to their genocide.
Going to post this halfway through and come back to it. Thanks.
does not compare this to the child sacrifice of every other race of people for balance.
I don’t have to. They do it to Christians specifically because we’re Christian. Defend against it by expelling them from Christian regions< such that they are then physically incapable of doing it. It’s not a hard concept to grasp. No benefit is gained whatsoever from having jews in non-jewish nations. As such, they have to be removed.
Again describing a whole race as "killers of Christ and the merchants of sin" refers to established facts so tenuously and vaguely
Bible explicitly says it multiple times.
Jews handed him over, Gentiles hung him up
Jews hung him up. Gentiles enacted punishment (on an innocent man) as appeasement to the jews who turned Him in. His release by Roman authorities is accounted, too. “Turned Him over to the jews to be crucified” is how it goes.
I get what you’re saying, though. Doesn’t change their behavior.
He also claims all Eve's seed as being on his side of the war unless they defect.
Plenty of defections.
My allusions were to say that we do not have such a declaration of war by an established authority against the Jewish people at large
We... don’t need to. At all.
If you are allied with Christ, I do not see him declaring war against his own people
At war with sin. To be a jew is to sin. “Rejection from knowledge,” as I said a while back. There is a hierarchy to sin, with respect to a given sin’s effects on others’ predisposition to sin. That’s why the distinction “rejection from knowledge” and “rejection from ignorance” is so important.
declaring that they will miss out until the day they welcome him back
Right… that’s, you know, the end game. We can talk about premillennialism/post millennialist and all the tribulation confusion all we like; the point is that a time comes for each of us when it’s too late to change and judgment is at hand.
Your paragraph reads similarly to exaggerations of the evils within Islam
Exaggerations? :P
If the truth is that one people-group is committed to genocide, we don't fight that by committing to their genocide.
Then we’ve already lost. They care, we don’t. They win by default. Nothing we do has any import.
Continuing topically despite any third-party difficulty following:
You say you do have desires but not hope. I have those desires, and hope. Jesus teaches me that all these evils will be justly judged and all actual victims will be recompensed and all righteous claims will be satisfied. My actions flow from this teaching of hope. He has shown me the one organization that is consistently fighting evil, namely, those who know his voice, those who mourn over the sin of the city (Ezekiel 8-11), those in him; I work with his body. Though you respect Christ, you seem to despair of finding his true body. Therefore the difference in our declarations of war corresponds to the difference in our stated organizational resources.
Your definition of subversives does not appear to flow from an authority or a purely informative data dump, though you are free to evidence otherwise. You see a lot arguing for niceness and optics, but I don't argue those. All the same, David's words "hate those who hate [the LORD]" (Ps. 139:21) must be handled cautiously because we aren't the sole judges of capital crimes. Even if you showed me clear-cut evidence of someone committing a child sacrifice, why, that's pretty straightforward, but I am still not to declare war on that person without offering terms of peace: much less to claim that everyone else in his race is just waiting to take his place as the taker of life. But we have no qualms about immediately engaging the enemy who is not flesh and blood and who has deceived and captivated all the nations.
God is needed and we are needed, we each do our part, in the end we win. There is good theological support for that. Yet your war doesn't make sense to me. To paraphrase your statement, you seem to have concluded that to live (within the world) is irrational, for Christ to return on time is incumbent, but if you judge that his window passes you have justified "physical revolution against the world". Is Jesus your Lord, or is he just someone who might be late for an important appointment and cannot be counted on?
Jesus intends to continue setting up a kingdom solely for people who tell the truth. It exists now in many hearts but has not yet bothered to claim that unimportant factor, land (except in small individual dedications). This better befits the kingdom's final certain land conquest. If your heart belongs to him, he has told you to occupy and labor until he comes.
However, on the other board you're being called a neo-Nazi, for apparent lack of your own identification with a named philosophy or movement. For the sake of my ability to moderate there, can you at least affirm (be numbered with) your position? Are you a Christian as determined by the classic creeds? Are you anti-Jew as determined by hatred for Jews as a race? Or do you reject titles because of association and let others guess madly?
To go hypothetical in trying to envision your position, let's say first that we imagine we're in Old Testament times and God has told us that a race needs to be exterminated. To leave the Israelites out of it, we could imagine we were Moabites fighting Emim, or Edomites fighting Horites (Deut. 2:11-12), or the like. Even if that hypothetical were to explain your war in the present day, we'd still have all the restrictions God places on war to prevent our becoming like our enemy. (Some nations conquered others so unvirtuously as to be conquered immediately themselves by the next nations.) (1) Ensure the authoritative decree has gone forth (declaration of war with cause). (2) Muster the army (not alone but organized formally). (3) Offer suzerain-vassal terms of peace (as with Gibeon). (4) Obey applicable laws except for clear conscience's sake (chain of command). Probably more. I don't see you modeling any of these "just war" principles, but some other paradigm.
The world is bad and getting worse, but the true church is good and getting better. This year I have been activated as Swamp Rangers has been formed to assist in conducting the necessary battles (see our fledgling website) and the Lord rapidly set me up personally as moderator of a virtual Christian community. Before that time, although it might appear I was doing "nothing" by contrast, I was following the Lord's orders in engaging my fights at fit times as well. I have defended truth a long time and am in the thick where my online work can have effects IRL (to say nothing of what I do IRL apart from the net).
Your closing hint seems to relate to some such revolution and your disappointment that there is no organized body to carry it out. I say that the organized body that Christ set up is sufficient to overturn the world once again, in just the way needed for our day, despite our many infiltrators and subversives. But we are so well-armed spiritually that we need not hide the details of this kind of revolution: we spread the truth into human hearts and win them eternally for our kingdom, not worrying about the temporary vicissitudes of dust particles like earth. Nothing the enemy can do is competent to destroy our supply lines on earth nor our heavenly provisions, so the enemy's planting of innumerable flags doesn't affect us. Christ's first band of followers wanted physical revolution too, and he said, "Not yet". There will be a time when he conquers all his enemies at once, and it will suffice. (If you can find a better offer, take it!) If you despair that there is no hope including in your own resolution, consider that the hope I have in Jesus really is the best offer, rather than something recently invented that we counteroffer to him.
In your followup, you seem to act as if certain past offenses still need reconciliation. I can stipulate that point generally stated, but can also tell you the reconciliation and reparation is in Christ and no other. He'll make it all up to us. If some sinned, he will punish them, we need not harp on their crime to remind him. We certainly don't get to attribute those past sins to our fellow citizens, that gets very lonely. To live in America with its about 2% Jewish population and to look at them with "they have to be removed" in the constant subtext is the very genocide you accuse them of in words like "They are taught to destroy all nations". The two views you state are contradictory under the Golden Rule.
The KJV Bible does not use the phrases "merchant(s) of sin" or "killer(s) of Christ" so you'll need to get your batting average up a bit. I do find John 19:16, "So he delivered him over to them [the soldiers] to be crucified." Of course I have added the late contextual antecedent from verse 23, "The soldiers had crucified Jesus". As we follow the Lord, we also trust his word to have the plain meaning and not read into it contrary to its ordinary human authors' intent.
To be at war with sin is not to be at war with a people, for the reasons stated. We don't generally get to determine the point when another person is to be judged. (I gave theoretical possibility to the idea that we might assist in this judgment if the numbered criteria of just war were met.) I won't bat away the Bible's statements about genocide but I will use its own context to explain it and will hold everyone to that context.
I'm thankful for your openness on many points. If your position is "of course I follow the creeds", then we can build on that unity and grow into all truth. If you propose another Christianity than that of the creeds (which begin with 1 Cor. 15:3-8), then we might still be able to build on some agreed truth foundation. You do seem to understand that forums use different paradigms than yours about info war against constant subversion, indicating the need to interact with other paradigms. I have obtained permission to assist in moderating c/Christianity under a full Christian paradigm, as far as I know. In that situation, everything is disclosed and open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do, and so there is no need to take rash individual actions against potential subversives because we team up within the body to identify and contain them. But until I know where your definitions come from I don't have power to join your fight.
Good, let's pursue truth and prove disinformation wrong. I understand what it's like to need to repeat a bunch of points without always wanting to refer back to sources every time, and sometimes I misword things and get corrected, so I can understand your summary paragraph in that respect. However, from my modest experience with Talmud, it mostly looks like exaggerated forms of the extant statements and so improvement is possible. On the one cite I recently tested, as I pointed out the source does not say "his own", it is obviously a legend rather than a doctrinal teaching, and here you have swapped excrement with semen. So I would need to review the other statements in that light. Similarly, your source that suggests the possibility that some Jews in history have engaged in child sacrifice does not compare this to the child sacrifice of every other race of people for balance.
Again describing a whole race as "killers of Christ and the merchants of sin" refers to established facts so tenuously and vaguely that the term may just as well apply to all men. Jews handed him over, Gentiles hung him up, but he laid down his life of his own accord. I mongered in sin and killed Christ. Basic Christianity is that he died for your sins too.
You saw my distancing in the phrase "responsibly reported". I am responsible to the American government insofar as they do not betray my conscience, but I see faults in every institution and in every people-group other than the adopted people of the invisible body of Christ.
As an established body, God delivers us our declaration of war against the devil and his angels in Genesis 3. He also claims all Eve's seed as being on his side of the war unless they defect. My allusions were to say that we do not have such a declaration of war by an established authority against the Jewish people at large and you seem to be at war alone rather than identifying an allegiance as I have. If you are allied with Christ, I do not see him declaring war against his own people, but declaring that they will miss out until the day they welcome him back (the hope on which Romans 9-11 is built). Millions of Jews over the years have in fact welcomed him back, though they are often disowned by their countrymen.
If there were an ideology of destroying others, of course that ideology must be destroyed (rather than any people). Your paragraph reads similarly to exaggerations of the evils within Islam or Christianity and as such calls not for killing but for truth. If the truth is that one people-group is committed to genocide, we don't fight that by committing to their genocide.
Going to post this halfway through and come back to it. Thanks.
I don’t have to. They do it to Christians specifically because we’re Christian. Defend against it by expelling them from Christian regions< such that they are then physically incapable of doing it. It’s not a hard concept to grasp. No benefit is gained whatsoever from having jews in non-jewish nations. As such, they have to be removed.
Bible explicitly says it multiple times.
Jews hung him up. Gentiles enacted punishment (on an innocent man) as appeasement to the jews who turned Him in. His release by Roman authorities is accounted, too. “Turned Him over to the jews to be crucified” is how it goes.
I get what you’re saying, though. Doesn’t change their behavior.
Plenty of defections.
We... don’t need to. At all.
At war with sin. To be a jew is to sin. “Rejection from knowledge,” as I said a while back. There is a hierarchy to sin, with respect to a given sin’s effects on others’ predisposition to sin. That’s why the distinction “rejection from knowledge” and “rejection from ignorance” is so important.
Right… that’s, you know, the end game. We can talk about premillennialism/post millennialist and all the tribulation confusion all we like; the point is that a time comes for each of us when it’s too late to change and judgment is at hand.
Exaggerations? :P
Then we’ve already lost. They care, we don’t. They win by default. Nothing we do has any import.
Continuing topically despite any third-party difficulty following:
You say you do have desires but not hope. I have those desires, and hope. Jesus teaches me that all these evils will be justly judged and all actual victims will be recompensed and all righteous claims will be satisfied. My actions flow from this teaching of hope. He has shown me the one organization that is consistently fighting evil, namely, those who know his voice, those who mourn over the sin of the city (Ezekiel 8-11), those in him; I work with his body. Though you respect Christ, you seem to despair of finding his true body. Therefore the difference in our declarations of war corresponds to the difference in our stated organizational resources.
Your definition of subversives does not appear to flow from an authority or a purely informative data dump, though you are free to evidence otherwise. You see a lot arguing for niceness and optics, but I don't argue those. All the same, David's words "hate those who hate [the LORD]" (Ps. 139:21) must be handled cautiously because we aren't the sole judges of capital crimes. Even if you showed me clear-cut evidence of someone committing a child sacrifice, why, that's pretty straightforward, but I am still not to declare war on that person without offering terms of peace: much less to claim that everyone else in his race is just waiting to take his place as the taker of life. But we have no qualms about immediately engaging the enemy who is not flesh and blood and who has deceived and captivated all the nations.
God is needed and we are needed, we each do our part, in the end we win. There is good theological support for that. Yet your war doesn't make sense to me. To paraphrase your statement, you seem to have concluded that to live (within the world) is irrational, for Christ to return on time is incumbent, but if you judge that his window passes you have justified "physical revolution against the world". Is Jesus your Lord, or is he just someone who might be late for an important appointment and cannot be counted on?
Jesus intends to continue setting up a kingdom solely for people who tell the truth. It exists now in many hearts but has not yet bothered to claim that unimportant factor, land (except in small individual dedications). This better befits the kingdom's final certain land conquest. If your heart belongs to him, he has told you to occupy and labor until he comes.
However, on the other board you're being called a neo-Nazi, for apparent lack of your own identification with a named philosophy or movement. For the sake of my ability to moderate there, can you at least affirm (be numbered with) your position? Are you a Christian as determined by the classic creeds? Are you anti-Jew as determined by hatred for Jews as a race? Or do you reject titles because of association and let others guess madly?
To go hypothetical in trying to envision your position, let's say first that we imagine we're in Old Testament times and God has told us that a race needs to be exterminated. To leave the Israelites out of it, we could imagine we were Moabites fighting Emim, or Edomites fighting Horites (Deut. 2:11-12), or the like. Even if that hypothetical were to explain your war in the present day, we'd still have all the restrictions God places on war to prevent our becoming like our enemy. (Some nations conquered others so unvirtuously as to be conquered immediately themselves by the next nations.) (1) Ensure the authoritative decree has gone forth (declaration of war with cause). (2) Muster the army (not alone but organized formally). (3) Offer suzerain-vassal terms of peace (as with Gibeon). (4) Obey applicable laws except for clear conscience's sake (chain of command). Probably more. I don't see you modeling any of these "just war" principles, but some other paradigm.
The world is bad and getting worse, but the true church is good and getting better. This year I have been activated as Swamp Rangers has been formed to assist in conducting the necessary battles (see our fledgling website) and the Lord rapidly set me up personally as moderator of a virtual Christian community. Before that time, although it might appear I was doing "nothing" by contrast, I was following the Lord's orders in engaging my fights at fit times as well. I have defended truth a long time and am in the thick where my online work can have effects IRL (to say nothing of what I do IRL apart from the net).
Your closing hint seems to relate to some such revolution and your disappointment that there is no organized body to carry it out. I say that the organized body that Christ set up is sufficient to overturn the world once again, in just the way needed for our day, despite our many infiltrators and subversives. But we are so well-armed spiritually that we need not hide the details of this kind of revolution: we spread the truth into human hearts and win them eternally for our kingdom, not worrying about the temporary vicissitudes of dust particles like earth. Nothing the enemy can do is competent to destroy our supply lines on earth nor our heavenly provisions, so the enemy's planting of innumerable flags doesn't affect us. Christ's first band of followers wanted physical revolution too, and he said, "Not yet". There will be a time when he conquers all his enemies at once, and it will suffice. (If you can find a better offer, take it!) If you despair that there is no hope including in your own resolution, consider that the hope I have in Jesus really is the best offer, rather than something recently invented that we counteroffer to him.
In your followup, you seem to act as if certain past offenses still need reconciliation. I can stipulate that point generally stated, but can also tell you the reconciliation and reparation is in Christ and no other. He'll make it all up to us. If some sinned, he will punish them, we need not harp on their crime to remind him. We certainly don't get to attribute those past sins to our fellow citizens, that gets very lonely. To live in America with its about 2% Jewish population and to look at them with "they have to be removed" in the constant subtext is the very genocide you accuse them of in words like "They are taught to destroy all nations". The two views you state are contradictory under the Golden Rule.
The KJV Bible does not use the phrases "merchant(s) of sin" or "killer(s) of Christ" so you'll need to get your batting average up a bit. I do find John 19:16, "So he delivered him over to them [the soldiers] to be crucified." Of course I have added the late contextual antecedent from verse 23, "The soldiers had crucified Jesus". As we follow the Lord, we also trust his word to have the plain meaning and not read into it contrary to its ordinary human authors' intent.
To be at war with sin is not to be at war with a people, for the reasons stated. We don't generally get to determine the point when another person is to be judged. (I gave theoretical possibility to the idea that we might assist in this judgment if the numbered criteria of just war were met.) I won't bat away the Bible's statements about genocide but I will use its own context to explain it and will hold everyone to that context.
I'm thankful for your openness on many points. If your position is "of course I follow the creeds", then we can build on that unity and grow into all truth. If you propose another Christianity than that of the creeds (which begin with 1 Cor. 15:3-8), then we might still be able to build on some agreed truth foundation. You do seem to understand that forums use different paradigms than yours about info war against constant subversion, indicating the need to interact with other paradigms. I have obtained permission to assist in moderating c/Christianity under a full Christian paradigm, as far as I know. In that situation, everything is disclosed and open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do, and so there is no need to take rash individual actions against potential subversives because we team up within the body to identify and contain them. But until I know where your definitions come from I don't have power to join your fight.