Thanks! u/Graphenium:
The worldview expressed in the Law of One/“Ra Material” and the Hidden Hand interview
https://www.wanttoknow.info/secret_societies/hidden_hand_081018
The way I see things, these two sources explain existence, the state of our world, and the meaning of life far more accurately than any other. One is a “channeled” work, and the other is a long series of Questions and Answers between a conspiracy forum (RiP ATS) and a self-proclaimed world-controller. I see them as complimentary, showing a deeper reality by showing two sides of the same coin. One side being that of Service-to-Others, and the other being Service-to-Self
https://communities.win/c/Conspiracies/p/1ASG9Vy4Tl/round-table-suggestion-thread/c
Thread will stay open for 3-4 weeks thanks to a very helpful suggestion.
I often have felt a synchronicity with your replies, which is a rare feeling I get with others which I interpret as “pay attention!” lol. Have you ever read about that idea? Which is all to say, i too am grateful for your passion, and the perspectives you share, not to tear down in anyway but to reframe. Im really glad that it seems what im trying to say is coming across, which I can only tell by the clarity of your responses thereupon. Cheers on those notes
And regarding the fundament of existence as the triad, that’s seriously compelling and I struggle to push back, all I can come up with are things that support the interpretation. For example what comes to mind as I read
Is that the framing makes sense. Only for “satanists” is their “evil” aligned with “satan”… for the adulterer, their evil is aligned with “Lust”, for the userer, “Mammon”, and so on. So “other” is more appropriate, as each individual has a unique “tempter”/set of temptations that would lead them, in their unique life, astray from “the Way”. I suppose the richness of your proposed description could be dissolved into the narrative of “the hierarchy of Hell”, if I wanted to force it into a dualistic view, but I see no need for that heh
Further, I think of one verse which has stuck with me strongly, which I think supports your view, or atleast could be thought of in that way:
Chapter 42 btw… I wonder what Douglas Adams meant by that…
Just to kind of tie back into the OP, what would you say HH/LoO gets most wrong? Because honestly I see even this Triadic perspective fitting in to their story, forgive me lol but I do (at first glance anyway, im sure it will get a couple more atleast), but I find the overall story just makes so much sense that it’s easy to “fit things in” so-to-speak. Whether it’s a created dualism that eventually returns to its uncreated Monism, or a creation that evolves from one to two to three to many and back again. I dunno. It’s like you say in your first paragraph about conduits to truth.
:)
Apologies for late reply. I've been running it through my head as HH/LoO does seem to fit many of the Abrahamic and Eastern religions well if we are a bit flexible with them... so I'm trying to focus on where these bends occur... but I come specifically from the triad monist perspective.
Lol nice connecting the dots there, now that is synchronicity lol... from my perspective it is the irony of a truth that is isolated... it needs a relational context in order to understand it. The Pharisees had correct answers, they knew the law, they could recite the truth... but they just had 42. Any answer that stands alone, detached from relationship, becomes ‘42’.
Absolutely, coming from the symbolic realist mindset, Jung understood that reality is relationships and patterns. and a True synchronicity will draw us into a communion of sorts... and hopefully we can evade over-interpretation.
So, what it get right is that reality is not purely material, there is a fundamental unity, consciousness participates in reality...
But treating HH/LoO very seriously, I see the framework as: (pre-relational) unity -> polarity -> evolution -> back to unity... while I would say unity is already relational. I would set it up as a triune communion -> a broken relation -> distorted polarity -> restoration. And I can go further into that but it's just a diagram to show my thought process:
I think "the One" is not just One... it is One-in-relation that it might understand itself. It is not a solitary unity... but a communion united. If the One is not inherently relational then love, say, is optional or an emergent property... but I see love is structural to reality itself. It is not a stage or an evolution or something it needs to learn, but a ground.
I think that HH/LoO focuses more on evolution than it does restoration. A focus on a progressive ascent through the densities and learning through a polarity with eventual integration... but it isnt our lack of development say, it is a ruptured communion. How do we fix a relationship that is broken? We can't do it ourselves as that would go against the reality of relationship. We need a redeemer, a metaxu.
HH/LoO tends to focus on awareness, realization, understanding... and to refer back to Douglas Adams... this is a 42 answer for me. Because it is focused on seeing the truth but the Triad demands that you participate in it with the right relationship.
I've probably said relationship over a dozen times here so I'm sorry if it seems repetitive... I guess if I distill it down, what is most wrong is it treats division as necessary, instead of communion as primary.
Perhaps if the HH/LoO can be better explained to me to fit a relationship idea, I can see more value in what it is trying to say.
Heh, a wizard is never late my friend
And again, hah, you say “nice job connecting the dots”, frankly that was all you! I was just trying to make a lame joke, but your insight connecting “the answer to life, the universe, and everything” to relationship is, I think, spot on and highly insightful. (Reminds me a bit of the final line in asimov’s ”The Last Question”.) The “answer” itself is dependent on all the surrounding context, and until all of that surrounding context is comprehended, the “answer”, in a vacuum, is almost meaningless, or atleast sterile. Or as you put so well:
He and Nietzsche, I feel, don’t get the credit they deserve for their contributions to our mindscapes. Jung’s mysticism and Nietzsche’s pragmatism should be at the foundation of modern religious thought, yet they’ve been seemingly just swept under the rug. Forgive the tangent lol.
So would you say that a large part of your issue with this framework is that it kind of presents “two Gods”, one being “pre-relational” (i.e. “before” the One Infinite Creator decided to “know itself”, thus kicking off “the universe”), and the One Infinite Creator at “the end of time”, where the myriad have coalesced back into (relational, this time) unity?
Forgive the copy and paste but I think this does well enough to convey some points:
So I would just point out a couple things: the unity “before” existence isn’t one that lacks relation, but one that is subsumed by relation. The relations are so solidly a part of the whole that the “distortion” of individuality is dissolved. That’s why the One Infinite Creator kicks things off by forgetting - such that it may remember those relationships anew. That might sound “pointless”, but I mean, what else makes sense for an omnipotent, omniscient being that ostensibly exists outside of time to do? The entire point of existence (in this framework) is relationship!
I think you put this well, but ultimately I think this is simply an issue of perspective (and i definitely see where you’re coming from). I understand why someone might hear “evolution through densities” and think something like “superheroes getting new superpowers”, but I think, actually, the story that is attempting to be conveyed through HH/LoO is actually fundamentally one of relation, and not some sterile “evolution of power” or something like that. I say that because, what does the whole story boil down to? Service-to-Others. Relationship is the catalyst for everything in existence. The One forgot, such that we may remember. It’s like the ultimate tale of sacrifice. A PERFECT stasis is broken, such that we may remember the Way to perfection.
Which is all to say, to me, relationship is the very central beating heart of this perspective, based on my understanding
Idk…I hope some of what I’m trying to say comes through, let me know if any parts seem unjustified
Just when I think I understand Nietzsche, I dont lol...
I actually think we’re very close here... and I genuinely appreciate how seriously you’re taking the relational aspect of reality, because I think that’s exactly where the conversation becomes meaningful.
Where I’d press in a bit is this: You’re saying the system is really about relationship, and I can agree... that’s what it’s reaching for. But I don’t think it quite lands it ontologically… it lands it functionally.
Relationship becomes the purpose of the system, but not its ground.
The issue isn’t that HH/LoO ignores relationship... it’s that it derives relationship from a prior state of unity. Even if that “unity” is described as being so saturated with relation that distinction disappears… it still results in a strange sequence: Unity (no distinction) -> differentiation (via Free Will / distortion) -> rediscovery of relationship...
Which I believe subtly implies that relationship is something the One comes to experience, rather than something the One eternally is.
So this is how I'd frame the tension: If love / relationship is structural to reality, then it cannot emerge from a prior state where distinction is absent... or forgetting per se.
So if the “One” must differentiate itself in order to love or know itself… then love isn’t fundamental... it’s contingent. And that’s the piece I can’t quite reconcile.
I wouldn’t say HH/LoO presents “two Gods” exactly, But I would say it introduces a kind of temporal shift in the nature of the One: A pre-experiential unity (before distinction) and a differentiated unity (after the process of knowing).
Which raises the question: Did the One become more relational over time? If yes, then relationship isn’t eternal. If no, then distinction must have always been real in some sense. And that’s where triad monism comes in.
Now, I actually think you’re right about something really important:
I think that’s exactly what HH/LoO is trying to articulate. Where I’d just gently disagree is how it gets there. Because in that system The One “forgets” in order to remember and the game creates relationship.
But in a triadic view the relationship doesn’t need to be generated it is already the ground of being. So, creation isn’t God trying to experience relationship… It’s relationship overflowing. Creation is God's overflow... (tangent) there was a phrase I actually found on this scored site that really changed my thinking. I had previously thought creatio ex nihilo and the framework that is built around, but someone here had said creatio ex amore dei. A concept that suggests God's act of creation is fundementally motivated by love or its overflow really... an overflow of relationship. More than nothing, more than power, more than self-glorification, more than experimentation. It just simply gives because that is the nature of Love... it is ontological.
Something that is so dynamic, so alive, so complete, so superabundant that it went hyper and birthed all of existence. And that is the ontology I'm talking about as opposed to the functional explanation of HH/LoO.
So, I think creation isn’t the breaking of a perfect stasis... Because I don’t think God is static to begin with as relationship is dynamic.
It is "A perfect unity was disrupted so that relationship could be experienced" vs. "Perfect communion is so abundant that it spills outward."
and this changes the meaning of sacrifice too.
Yes, in the LoO frame, the sacrifice is: the One limits itself, forgets itself, fractures itself
the Triadic frame is God giving Himself without ceasing to be Himself. A paradox on its face to be sure... It just presses against the limits of how we normally think about being. I think I'll stop there for now and eagerly await your response.
Great analysis, fren. Creatio ex Deo FTW. Any secular philosopher should come around to the same principles, and when they don't the failure of their system is obvious.
One other note, technically, we cannot know beyond what we can know, and so whenever one speaks of a hypothetical state of God as if "external" to creation that definition always includes an assumption of unknowability that makes it contradictory. What we are actually talking about is not "unknowable" if we have the power to talk about it; it's merely a shorthand way of talking about our inability to know beyond what we can know. So the whole "god" that is believed to "forget" is not ultimate being because it's something we comprehend. Rather, Being that reveals itself always as Love is defined as Love, and for simplicity's sake we think about it still being Love even in the counterfactual where we're not thinking about it.
Ahh, more accurately, I should say “this is what i think, after having read only one of his books” lol (luckily the one probably (hopefully) most relavent to the subject). But I definitely see his Ubermensch as basically the prototypical Gnostic - the self-motivated, self-examining seeker, not tied to any dead sect or ideology or dogma, who knows the only one who holds us accountable to God is ourselves, (so anyone with ears had better listen), kinda thing… that was my interpretation atleast. I honestly don’t get where he gets the “nihilist” label. By my reading, he was the exact opposite.
Looking at the “big picture” presented in HH/LoO, i can see where you’re coming from (I think atleast, tell me if I’m wrong). When you read “it’s all a play, when it’s all over and the curtain falls, the villains and heroes walk off the stage, unburdened by the roles they once inhabited”, and I see how that seems sterile - less about relation as the foundation, but more just some kind of class room, where we’re almost “just going through the motions”. And while valid, I think that view neglects how these texts describe the “evolution” of the densities. Iirc (this is going from memory)
The first density is basically “can you exist”. I think it’s described as like, rocks, minerals, crystalline formations, surviving the weathering of the environment. First density is “can you persist over the adversity of existence” i guess let’s say.
Second density is the dawning of “awareness” without “awareness of self”. So, hard to point where that line is exactly in animals, but let’s say “less intelligent than dogs”. The purpose of the density is to test if they can persist in a world defined by other
Third density is self-awareness - “can you learn to love others as you love yourself”.
And so, if the story ended there, and it was like “okay, lesson learned, time to dissolve back into the primordial goo!” - I would agree, it would strike me as an odd, sterile explanation. You might point out that “Love” only appears in the third density - that’s just because I suck at explaining the metaphysical nature underpinning reality, but if I was better at it, I’d be able to explain how each step is building on the last to allow greater and greater Love
The fourth density, I believe, is the density of Love - iirc, basically all of “humanity” (who polarized themselves positively, through service to others), let’s say, goes to a “New Heaven and New Earth”. This is where every soul in the group learns true, unconditional love for the other, and thus themselves. I basically picture it as “Heaven” (which it is, from the perspective of our plane of existence). But this required all the prior steps. First we needed to become aware. Then we needed to become self-aware. Then we needed to become aware of the other-self dynamic, all in service of advancing to a more whole, more rich, more developed “understanding of relationship”, before we can begin to actually inhabit this richer level of existence.
Wisdom, and I think Unity, then I think “Finalizing” or something? They're besides the point, but I remember their explanations logically following from and building on what came before. The whole notion of existence as a series of scales/octets/etc seems so accurate, and explains much of the numerology of the ancients, even that seen in much of the Bible. But im going down a tangent - key point - existence is by all appearances, scales nested within scales, or “rabbits, all the way down”. If I can see clearly the parts of the scale below me, it seems highly arrogant to think im anywhere near the top of the scale, anywhere near ready to “approach the throne of God”. Even after a lifetime, I couldn’t imagine it. Sure, there might be the odd one-in-a-trillion type of Enoch or Buddha feller, but even then I think the story is more complicated than any of us was ever capable of recording. Not that your, or anyone else’s view of Heaven is “arrogant”, what im trying to say is that I see “getting to Heaven” as “the start of a new level of existence”, as opposed to “the conclusion of this existence.”… hope that makes sense.
Where am I going with this… i guess, I would reframe it, not as like, “existence is a classroom”, but more along the lines of “all of humanity (and ultimately, all of existence, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves) is a… Wandering Theatre Troupe…we put on stories to enrich the lives of our fellow men, and when all is said and done the “heroes” and “villains” (not the service to self psychopaths mind you, I mean the guy you cursed at under your breath when he cut you off to pass on the inside lane, lol) reconcile, because their true nature is their shared nature. And there’s still a long way yet to go, and lessons unimaginable to us left to learn.
Gotta cut myself off there lol. Hopefully some of the point of that ramble pokes through hah. I feel like despite the word count it wasn’t great at getting my notions across… lol