Thanks for the tip. Since you banned me from there, this is not a "core religious principle" at all, this is just a rando rabbi who recognizes that Rebecca was strong enough to water many camels and mature enough to give informed consent to an arranged marriage (see the text), but who also believes the strand of tradition that says she was three (other Jewish traditions say 13 or older) and doesn't want to abandon that. Note that it would be understood by all the original audience in Near East culture that arranged marriage is only a betrothal, to be consummated sometime after maturity. The rabbi also acknowledges, without elaboration, that the standards are different today.
We cannot infer that everyone who talks about the history of arranged marriage (including me, when I try to be objective about the past) automatically is promoting pedophilia. If there were a pointer to something creepy going on that would distinguish this case from the ordinary historian trying to speak objectively about marital customs (like Westermarck), that would be different. The account framing says "tries to justify ... sex with a 3 year old girl", but every historian knows that's a false framing. In fact, since there was a tradition that barrenness should not be judged until the 10-year mark, and Isaac wasn't concerned about barrenness until the 20-year mark, that is taken as evidence that he had no relations with her for 10 years (and may inform the 3-year-old tradition too). So if there's anything creepy it's the person who posted it and misinterpreted it prematurely. The person who jumps to pedophilia whenever any old Near East arranged marriage is being discussed objectively poisons the well to forestall us from punishing real pedophiles who abuse and kill their victims.
I should go back in the files for the one Jewish source I had that really was promoting pedophilia openly just so I can show you guys the difference. It was such an outlier that I've forgotten how to search for it in the archives.
I have before. In that case it's testified that she married at 6 and matured at 9 and only then consummated the marriage. I don't know of any other culture that says to consummate at 9 even if she's sexually mature, so that's an outlier compared to everyone who says wait, meaning it's pretty sus, and distinguishable. It's been called out a lot, not sure there's much I can add uniquely.
Seems like it’s about as disputed as the Rebekah one
Hishām ibn ʿUrwa was the only one to narrate the ḥadīth, 13 and he narrated it when he was in Iraq, a time when he was accused of having a bad memory.
Asmaʾ, the older sister of ʿĀʾisha, was ten years older than ʿĀʾisha. Since Asmaʾ passed away in 73 AH/692 CE at the age of 100, this places ʿĀʾisha at eighteen years old when the marriage was consummated.
Fāṭima was born at the time the Kaʿba was rebuilt, when the Prophet ﷺ was thirty-five years old, and she was five years older than ʿĀʾisha, making Āʾisha around twelve years old when she married the Prophet.
ʿĀʾisha participated in the Battle of ʾUḥud. Ibn ʿUmar narrates that the Prophet did not permit him to participate in Uḥud because he was fourteen, but when he was fifteen the Prophet gave him permission to fight in the battle of the Trench (Khandaq). Thus, ʿĀʾisha must have been at least fifteen at the time of ʾUḥud, meaning she consummated the marriage at thirteen or fourteen years old.
ʿĀʾisha narrated in Bukhārī: “This revelation [in Sūra al-Qamar]: ‘Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and most bitter’ 14 was revealed to Muḥammad in Makkah while I was a playful jāriya.”
Thanks for the tip. Since you banned me from there, this is not a "core religious principle" at all, this is just a rando rabbi who recognizes that Rebecca was strong enough to water many camels and mature enough to give informed consent to an arranged marriage (see the text), but who also believes the strand of tradition that says she was three (other Jewish traditions say 13 or older) and doesn't want to abandon that. Note that it would be understood by all the original audience in Near East culture that arranged marriage is only a betrothal, to be consummated sometime after maturity. The rabbi also acknowledges, without elaboration, that the standards are different today.
We cannot infer that everyone who talks about the history of arranged marriage (including me, when I try to be objective about the past) automatically is promoting pedophilia. If there were a pointer to something creepy going on that would distinguish this case from the ordinary historian trying to speak objectively about marital customs (like Westermarck), that would be different. The account framing says "tries to justify ... sex with a 3 year old girl", but every historian knows that's a false framing. In fact, since there was a tradition that barrenness should not be judged until the 10-year mark, and Isaac wasn't concerned about barrenness until the 20-year mark, that is taken as evidence that he had no relations with her for 10 years (and may inform the 3-year-old tradition too). So if there's anything creepy it's the person who posted it and misinterpreted it prematurely. The person who jumps to pedophilia whenever any old Near East arranged marriage is being discussed objectively poisons the well to forestall us from punishing real pedophiles who abuse and kill their victims.
Also there is no list of 109 countries and no objective methodology on how many expulsions there were; when objective methodology is used, there are only 12 modern countries, regions of 10 others, and a handful of other regions that vary by count but don't reach 109; and the expulsions overall become similar to those of Christians, Roma, and Muslims.
Okay good goy
I should go back in the files for the one Jewish source I had that really was promoting pedophilia openly just so I can show you guys the difference. It was such an outlier that I've forgotten how to search for it in the archives.
c/deviance you're welcome.
but behave yourself over there.
I appreciate your thoughts, are you saying you intended to unban me at c/Deviance? Or that you just look forward to my data regardless?
Can you do Mohammed and Aisha next?
I have before. In that case it's testified that she married at 6 and matured at 9 and only then consummated the marriage. I don't know of any other culture that says to consummate at 9 even if she's sexually mature, so that's an outlier compared to everyone who says wait, meaning it's pretty sus, and distinguishable. It's been called out a lot, not sure there's much I can add uniquely.
Seems like it’s about as disputed as the Rebekah one