Lathe-like machinery is an ancient thing. And with any lathe, even ugly, slaves-driven and prehistoric one, you inevitably get "magic" of ideal concentricity and roundness if you work on stock without taking it out.
It's like sawing something with rope saw - you always get perfectly flat cut surface.
If you'd bother to watch the video, he (Ben with UnchartedX) explains that it would be impossible to create these things on lathes, even modern ones. He's made several videos on this subject so far, because of how astonishing it is.
You can't lathe granite, as it is incredibly hard and has occlusions in it which will break under a lathe. Softer rocks, maybe, but not granite, or the other harder rocks that were used to make these pieces. Furthermore, all of these vases have handles, and even the curves between and part of the handles are insanely accurate (within a few microns of accuracy). There's also been further analysis of the 3D scans of some of these vases (this project only started a few months ago, by the way, and these are only the first few vases they've scanned), showing that all of the measurements and curvatures are mathematically related, often in relation to mathematical and geometric constants, even among the smallest curves in the handles, where the radii are less than 1mm. They're so accurate they can't be made by hand, and the only way we can make them today is with the best computer driven machines with multi axis capabilities, utilizing computer driven software. Even then, most modern machines introduce more error into their work than is seen in these vases, just from a simple tool change, which would be required to replicate these vases.
Truly, these vases could only be produced in a computer, with design software, and manufactured with highly precise sophisticated machines, which we have trouble replicating today...and there's tens of thousands of these vases. I've worked with rock before, for years, by hand, with hammers, chisels, saws, polishers, and other machinery. If anyone thinks these vases can be made by hand, they're deluded.
If you'd bother to watch the video, he (Ben with UnchartedX) explains that it would be impossible to create these things on lathes, even modern ones.
I don't care what some blogger explains. I know that I can do it.
Truly, these vases could only be produced in a computer, with design software, and manufactured with highly precise sophisticated machines
It's a bullshit. Right before me I have a glass made from stone, something like that - http://kamnerez07.ru/shop/product/bokal-d60-115 I don't know how that stone named in English, in Russian it is named змеевик. Hardness is just 1-2 below hardness of granite. You could also buy similar glasses from onyx, which is harder than granite, and other stones.
IDK, hardly this "ancient super advaced technology" of making stone glassware preserved only in Ural mountains region of Russia. I know similar things manufactured in Iran and Pakistan. If some dude from youtube could not do that, then it's only his ignorance, nothing more.
My glass is perfectly round, it was made on simple lathe, basically similar to simpliest wood lathe, but with diamond cutting disc instead of chisel. Inside is taken out with diamond ball mill. Stock is rotating slowly, diamond cutter rotates fast. It is possible to make partial arcs on surface (for handles, f.e.) rotating stock by incomplete turn, leaving some stone intact.
I could easily make similar granite vase on my metalworking lathe using dremel equipped with diamond disk instead of regular cutter. Will took some time and water, but absolutely nothing exceptional. High roundness is guaranteed.
In ancient times such things highly probably was made on hand-driven lathe of basic construction with rotating bronse disk/ball with sand melted in as cutting tool. Water was used for cooling and dust removal. Two slaves, one to rotate bronse tool at high speed with bow string and other to pour water was handy. Master slowly rotate stock in lathe by one hand doing cutting with rotating tool with other hand.
Once upon a time, being child I was very enthusiastic in all that "advaced ancient technology" bullshit too. But with time, I got a knowledge and expirience of how things work and how they made. I learned to work on different machines and use different tools. And now, all that "advanced ancient technologies" are nothing more than simple job done with simple tools. Tools simplicity just made job longer, not less precise. And ancient people had a lot of time. They didn't have twitter and netflix, so had to find some other ways to occupy themselves.
I don't care what some blogger explains. I know that I can do it.
Mainstream historians and Egyptologists also claim the pyramids were built by hand, without the use of the wheel, and the Egyptians quarried and carved stone with stone pounders and copper chisels. When they were asked to show how this was done, they pounded on stones for less than a day, and proclaimed victory for their paper thin theory, when they made almost no progress.
I could easily make similar granite vase on my metalworking lathe using dremel equipped with diamond disk instead of regular cutter.
No one ever said ancient peoples couldn't work in granite. The problem is working granite (and other hard stone) to extremely fine detail. How tight are the tolerances of your works? Are they within micron tolerances? Are the lines and curves of your works all related to each other, geometrical ratios?
It is possible to make partial arcs on surface (for handles, f.e.) rotating stock by incomplete turn
LOL. Okay. So you're just eyeballing the material removal between the handles. Like I said, even those surfaces are within micron level tolerances. You can't do that by eyeballing it, even on the most accurate lathe in the universe. Just your heartbeat would incur more error than what is seen in these vases. Do you know what a micron is? 1 micron = .001 mm.
In ancient times such things highly probably was made on hand-driven lathe of basic construction with rotating bronse disk/ball with sand melted in as cutting tool.
Egyptologists have tested sawing to cut rock using copper saws with sand abrasives. Do you know how well it worked? They made almost no progress. Using that technique, it would've taken way, waaay longer to produce what was made, and with less accuracy.
Also, I don't know if you know this, but mainstream historians still claim the ancient Egyptians built everything they did without the use of the wheel, and without the use of the lathe. They claim the Egyptians built everything they did with a few copper tools (not everyone had them), stone tools, and diorite pounding stones (hard rocks shaped in a sphere used to literally pound away at a softer rock to remove material, LOL)...that's it. I've worked in a quarry before. Even using steel tools (which massively increases efficiency over copper and stone tools) incurs repetitive stress injuries, when that's all you do every day all day.
Once upon a time, being child I was very enthusiastic in all that "advaced ancient technology" bullshit too. But with time, I got a knowledge and expirience of how things work and how they made. I learned to work on different machines and use different tools. And now, all that "advanced ancient technologies" are nothing more than simple job done with simple tools.
Weird, as I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. I've worked with my hands most of my life. I know what can be achieved by hand, and what can't. I know when a job requires more advanced technology. I'm not the only one saying this with regard to the ancient Egyptian stonework, either. Numerous people who've worked with rock their entire lives have repeated my sentiments.
Again, you clearly haven't watched the video. This isn't the only consideration, either. Ben with UnchartedX has been detailing the anomalies of ancient cultures for years, and has tons of evidence to back up his claims. He has pictures and videos of saw marks, tube drills (which can drill faster than we can replicate today), scooping machines (see Egyptian quarry work), articulated grinders, and unknown machines that could smooth surfaces of rock en masse, even inside fine corners.
The problem is working granite (and other hard stone) to extremely fine detail. How tight are the tolerances of your works? Are they within micron tolerances?
It depends on what tolerances you mean. For roundness you will get less than micron tolerance on nearly any lathe and even cutting something gripped in hand drill.
I have no tools to measure roundness tolerance for things I made on my lathe, It is much less than micron. Best dial I have with 0.001 precision show nothing if I set it on a just turned part rotating in a chuck. Obviously.
For other axis, I have around 0.01 mm lengthwise from chuck to rear support and same 0.01 perpendiculal for 150mm diameter stock. This tolerances are adjustable so it could be better, but I don't need to.
Are the lines and curves of your works all related to each other, geometrical ratios?
You will not believe me, but suddenly, solids of revolution like vases are made from some 2D curve rotated by 360 degrees.
If you look at Egyptian 2D pictures and ornaments, you will find that they are sometimes very sophisticated. You need not be a genius to take some of those ornaments curve and turn it to get some nice thing.
So you're just eyeballing the material removal between the handles.
You don't need any eyballing if you use stops. Simpliest thing - a stick attached to stock. Every time attached stick stop at some fixture, angle of stock is exactly same with decent precision. Very easy.
Same with vase curve. Especially if you need several identical vases. You make a template plank with one side curved that set vase profile and use it as a stop for cutter. You will not be able to cut more than template allow and all subsequent vases will be identical.
Egyptologists have tested sawing to cut rock using copper saws with sand abrasives. Do you know how well it worked? They made almost no progress.
They are idiots. You need bronze or brass for that. Just go to nearest hardware shop and take a look at all that diamond or corundum cutting disks - the abrasive is melted into brass. Copper is too soft to hold abrasive. In addition, copper is kind of sticky. It is hard to mil, drill and turn copper because it is sticky. Brass and bronse is self-slipping. That is why bushes are made from brass or bronze, and that is why it is used as a carrier for abrasive.
If you have a good hardware shop around, you could buy a rope blade for hack saw. Usially used for cutting ceramic tiles. It is a steel wire covered with brass covered with abrasive. Works pretty well. And cheap as dirt. You don't need any "egyptologists" to find out how things really works.
mainstream historians still claim the ancient Egyptians built everything they did without the use of the wheel, and without the use of the lathe.
Mainstream historians claim a lot of bullshit. That is why they allowed to be mainstream.
Egyptians was well aware about wheel and machinery.
I've worked in a quarry before. Even using steel tools
Steel is not used to cut stones. Steel is used in this tools only to carry cutting edge made from brass/bronze and abrasive. All cutting is done by abrasive. And there was plenty of abrasive in ancient Egypt.
I know when a job requires more advanced technology
Advanced technology makes things easier. It didn't change principle. Like with lathe. Of course modern CNC lathe is very comfortable to cut anything round and even not so round. But in basics it is not different from stock holded between two arrowheads and driven by bowstring with knife or sharp stone as a tool. With such lathe you could do anything you can do on modern lathe, it just will take much more time. With such lathe you could make any round parts from wood, bronze or brass stock. Then use them to upgrade your lathe to do things from stone or whatever material.
F.e. those flat disks with square holes in center that are declared coins by "archeologists". They are not coins. "Archeologists" didn't know about machining and all that stuff. They are cutting disks. Square hole allow easily transfer large torque from wooden stick to cutting edge without slipping. Craft was rated high in ancient times, so this form of disk with square hole eventually could evolve in coins with some art on them, but early ones with flat sides are cutting tools.
As for precision - I had a textbook for machinists where described a lot of methods to make high precision parts using low precision tools. It was old Russian textbook for technical schools. I'm shure western technical schools have to have similar textbooks, because it is the basics of any industry. High precision machinery is not appeared from nowhere. It was made on lower precision machinery. Find this book and read it. I guarantee, you will find much more amasing and mind-blowing stuff in this book than in all that videos about "advanced ancient technologies" together.
Again, you clearly haven't watched the video.
I watched and I'm pity I spend time to watch this. Only thing that saved this video is vases. They are nice. And that's all.
Seriously - buy that cheap stone bowl and measure it by yourself. All that bullshit "it is impossible even with modern tools" will vaporize quickly. Just $10 and highly probably you'll easily find something similar on amazon or ebay. Not a very high price to find the truth.
I understand why videobloggers do that videos. They want their easy money, so they will do anything to make even very boring things look amasing and misterious. But I don't understand why people here decide to help them to earn money?
Well, long-term grinding with abrasives can and does machine and polish. Although normally one uses a sharp pointed tool on a lathe to cut, it is very common to apply a grinding wheel to a lathe piece too. Nothing prevents grinding stone instead of cutting it.
True, but like I said, that would require several tool changes, which would incur error into the final results, usually compounding the error (anyone that's polished too much material away in the beginning stages knows this, especially when dealing with extremely tight tolerances/precision). You can't polish stone (or any material) with just one grit. Getting them as smooth as these vases are requires one tool to remove material in bulk, then numerous grits of progressing fineness to polish it, all of which is a tool change. And, again, this is even ignoring the fact that the people that created these had access to modern computers, computer design software, and sophisticated multi axis machinery, which competes with what we have today. The accuracy with which these things were created can't be done by hand.
Replicating them in what material, and how accurate are they?
The oldest Egyptian works are the most impressive, and subsequent Egyptians worked in softer stone with less precision. Even modern Egyptians only work in soft stone. They don't work in granite. Again, Ben with UnchartedX has videos showing the modern stoneworkers, what materials they use, and how much less accurate it is compared to the most ancient works.
Lathe-like machinery is an ancient thing. And with any lathe, even ugly, slaves-driven and prehistoric one, you inevitably get "magic" of ideal concentricity and roundness if you work on stock without taking it out.
It's like sawing something with rope saw - you always get perfectly flat cut surface.
Geometry rulz.
Nice vases, meanwhile.
If you'd bother to watch the video, he (Ben with UnchartedX) explains that it would be impossible to create these things on lathes, even modern ones. He's made several videos on this subject so far, because of how astonishing it is.
You can't lathe granite, as it is incredibly hard and has occlusions in it which will break under a lathe. Softer rocks, maybe, but not granite, or the other harder rocks that were used to make these pieces. Furthermore, all of these vases have handles, and even the curves between and part of the handles are insanely accurate (within a few microns of accuracy). There's also been further analysis of the 3D scans of some of these vases (this project only started a few months ago, by the way, and these are only the first few vases they've scanned), showing that all of the measurements and curvatures are mathematically related, often in relation to mathematical and geometric constants, even among the smallest curves in the handles, where the radii are less than 1mm. They're so accurate they can't be made by hand, and the only way we can make them today is with the best computer driven machines with multi axis capabilities, utilizing computer driven software. Even then, most modern machines introduce more error into their work than is seen in these vases, just from a simple tool change, which would be required to replicate these vases.
Truly, these vases could only be produced in a computer, with design software, and manufactured with highly precise sophisticated machines, which we have trouble replicating today...and there's tens of thousands of these vases. I've worked with rock before, for years, by hand, with hammers, chisels, saws, polishers, and other machinery. If anyone thinks these vases can be made by hand, they're deluded.
I don't care what some blogger explains. I know that I can do it.
It's a bullshit. Right before me I have a glass made from stone, something like that - http://kamnerez07.ru/shop/product/bokal-d60-115 I don't know how that stone named in English, in Russian it is named змеевик. Hardness is just 1-2 below hardness of granite. You could also buy similar glasses from onyx, which is harder than granite, and other stones.
IDK, hardly this "ancient super advaced technology" of making stone glassware preserved only in Ural mountains region of Russia. I know similar things manufactured in Iran and Pakistan. If some dude from youtube could not do that, then it's only his ignorance, nothing more.
My glass is perfectly round, it was made on simple lathe, basically similar to simpliest wood lathe, but with diamond cutting disc instead of chisel. Inside is taken out with diamond ball mill. Stock is rotating slowly, diamond cutter rotates fast. It is possible to make partial arcs on surface (for handles, f.e.) rotating stock by incomplete turn, leaving some stone intact.
I could easily make similar granite vase on my metalworking lathe using dremel equipped with diamond disk instead of regular cutter. Will took some time and water, but absolutely nothing exceptional. High roundness is guaranteed.
In ancient times such things highly probably was made on hand-driven lathe of basic construction with rotating bronse disk/ball with sand melted in as cutting tool. Water was used for cooling and dust removal. Two slaves, one to rotate bronse tool at high speed with bow string and other to pour water was handy. Master slowly rotate stock in lathe by one hand doing cutting with rotating tool with other hand.
Once upon a time, being child I was very enthusiastic in all that "advaced ancient technology" bullshit too. But with time, I got a knowledge and expirience of how things work and how they made. I learned to work on different machines and use different tools. And now, all that "advanced ancient technologies" are nothing more than simple job done with simple tools. Tools simplicity just made job longer, not less precise. And ancient people had a lot of time. They didn't have twitter and netflix, so had to find some other ways to occupy themselves.
Mainstream historians and Egyptologists also claim the pyramids were built by hand, without the use of the wheel, and the Egyptians quarried and carved stone with stone pounders and copper chisels. When they were asked to show how this was done, they pounded on stones for less than a day, and proclaimed victory for their paper thin theory, when they made almost no progress.
No one ever said ancient peoples couldn't work in granite. The problem is working granite (and other hard stone) to extremely fine detail. How tight are the tolerances of your works? Are they within micron tolerances? Are the lines and curves of your works all related to each other, geometrical ratios?
LOL. Okay. So you're just eyeballing the material removal between the handles. Like I said, even those surfaces are within micron level tolerances. You can't do that by eyeballing it, even on the most accurate lathe in the universe. Just your heartbeat would incur more error than what is seen in these vases. Do you know what a micron is? 1 micron = .001 mm.
Egyptologists have tested sawing to cut rock using copper saws with sand abrasives. Do you know how well it worked? They made almost no progress. Using that technique, it would've taken way, waaay longer to produce what was made, and with less accuracy.
Also, I don't know if you know this, but mainstream historians still claim the ancient Egyptians built everything they did without the use of the wheel, and without the use of the lathe. They claim the Egyptians built everything they did with a few copper tools (not everyone had them), stone tools, and diorite pounding stones (hard rocks shaped in a sphere used to literally pound away at a softer rock to remove material, LOL)...that's it. I've worked in a quarry before. Even using steel tools (which massively increases efficiency over copper and stone tools) incurs repetitive stress injuries, when that's all you do every day all day.
Weird, as I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. I've worked with my hands most of my life. I know what can be achieved by hand, and what can't. I know when a job requires more advanced technology. I'm not the only one saying this with regard to the ancient Egyptian stonework, either. Numerous people who've worked with rock their entire lives have repeated my sentiments.
Again, you clearly haven't watched the video. This isn't the only consideration, either. Ben with UnchartedX has been detailing the anomalies of ancient cultures for years, and has tons of evidence to back up his claims. He has pictures and videos of saw marks, tube drills (which can drill faster than we can replicate today), scooping machines (see Egyptian quarry work), articulated grinders, and unknown machines that could smooth surfaces of rock en masse, even inside fine corners.
It depends on what tolerances you mean. For roundness you will get less than micron tolerance on nearly any lathe and even cutting something gripped in hand drill.
I have no tools to measure roundness tolerance for things I made on my lathe, It is much less than micron. Best dial I have with 0.001 precision show nothing if I set it on a just turned part rotating in a chuck. Obviously.
For other axis, I have around 0.01 mm lengthwise from chuck to rear support and same 0.01 perpendiculal for 150mm diameter stock. This tolerances are adjustable so it could be better, but I don't need to.
You will not believe me, but suddenly, solids of revolution like vases are made from some 2D curve rotated by 360 degrees. If you look at Egyptian 2D pictures and ornaments, you will find that they are sometimes very sophisticated. You need not be a genius to take some of those ornaments curve and turn it to get some nice thing.
You don't need any eyballing if you use stops. Simpliest thing - a stick attached to stock. Every time attached stick stop at some fixture, angle of stock is exactly same with decent precision. Very easy.
Same with vase curve. Especially if you need several identical vases. You make a template plank with one side curved that set vase profile and use it as a stop for cutter. You will not be able to cut more than template allow and all subsequent vases will be identical.
They are idiots. You need bronze or brass for that. Just go to nearest hardware shop and take a look at all that diamond or corundum cutting disks - the abrasive is melted into brass. Copper is too soft to hold abrasive. In addition, copper is kind of sticky. It is hard to mil, drill and turn copper because it is sticky. Brass and bronse is self-slipping. That is why bushes are made from brass or bronze, and that is why it is used as a carrier for abrasive.
If you have a good hardware shop around, you could buy a rope blade for hack saw. Usially used for cutting ceramic tiles. It is a steel wire covered with brass covered with abrasive. Works pretty well. And cheap as dirt. You don't need any "egyptologists" to find out how things really works.
Mainstream historians claim a lot of bullshit. That is why they allowed to be mainstream.
Egyptians was well aware about wheel and machinery.
Steel is not used to cut stones. Steel is used in this tools only to carry cutting edge made from brass/bronze and abrasive. All cutting is done by abrasive. And there was plenty of abrasive in ancient Egypt.
Advanced technology makes things easier. It didn't change principle. Like with lathe. Of course modern CNC lathe is very comfortable to cut anything round and even not so round. But in basics it is not different from stock holded between two arrowheads and driven by bowstring with knife or sharp stone as a tool. With such lathe you could do anything you can do on modern lathe, it just will take much more time. With such lathe you could make any round parts from wood, bronze or brass stock. Then use them to upgrade your lathe to do things from stone or whatever material.
F.e. those flat disks with square holes in center that are declared coins by "archeologists". They are not coins. "Archeologists" didn't know about machining and all that stuff. They are cutting disks. Square hole allow easily transfer large torque from wooden stick to cutting edge without slipping. Craft was rated high in ancient times, so this form of disk with square hole eventually could evolve in coins with some art on them, but early ones with flat sides are cutting tools.
As for precision - I had a textbook for machinists where described a lot of methods to make high precision parts using low precision tools. It was old Russian textbook for technical schools. I'm shure western technical schools have to have similar textbooks, because it is the basics of any industry. High precision machinery is not appeared from nowhere. It was made on lower precision machinery. Find this book and read it. I guarantee, you will find much more amasing and mind-blowing stuff in this book than in all that videos about "advanced ancient technologies" together.
I watched and I'm pity I spend time to watch this. Only thing that saved this video is vases. They are nice. And that's all.
Seriously - buy that cheap stone bowl and measure it by yourself. All that bullshit "it is impossible even with modern tools" will vaporize quickly. Just $10 and highly probably you'll easily find something similar on amazon or ebay. Not a very high price to find the truth.
I understand why videobloggers do that videos. They want their easy money, so they will do anything to make even very boring things look amasing and misterious. But I don't understand why people here decide to help them to earn money?
Well, long-term grinding with abrasives can and does machine and polish. Although normally one uses a sharp pointed tool on a lathe to cut, it is very common to apply a grinding wheel to a lathe piece too. Nothing prevents grinding stone instead of cutting it.
True, but like I said, that would require several tool changes, which would incur error into the final results, usually compounding the error (anyone that's polished too much material away in the beginning stages knows this, especially when dealing with extremely tight tolerances/precision). You can't polish stone (or any material) with just one grit. Getting them as smooth as these vases are requires one tool to remove material in bulk, then numerous grits of progressing fineness to polish it, all of which is a tool change. And, again, this is even ignoring the fact that the people that created these had access to modern computers, computer design software, and sophisticated multi axis machinery, which competes with what we have today. The accuracy with which these things were created can't be done by hand.
Say, that ancient Egyptian Tesla is pretty slick.
There are people on youtube replicating these vases so you might be wrong.
Replicating them in what material, and how accurate are they?
The oldest Egyptian works are the most impressive, and subsequent Egyptians worked in softer stone with less precision. Even modern Egyptians only work in soft stone. They don't work in granite. Again, Ben with UnchartedX has videos showing the modern stoneworkers, what materials they use, and how much less accurate it is compared to the most ancient works.
https://www.youtube.com/@SacredGeometryDecoded/videos
Knock yourself out. This guy refutes all these bullshit claims about the vases and shows how they can be easily replicated.
What kind of utter bullshit is this?
https://www.egypte-market.com/?s=granite
Look. A website from Egypt where you can buy worked granite. Took me 30 seconds to find.