Think about it, what are taxes for? To pay for all the things we share as a people: government, roads, healthcare etc.
If we're getting an equal amount out of the system why is it fair to expect people to pay different amounts into that system. Think about it, If you go out for dinner with friends and all eat the same amount you wouldn't expect to pay the bill based on your incomes.
That's why if you really wanted a "fair" system everyone would pay a flat dollar rate, such as $5000/person. I realize that's not realistic but perhaps we could meet in the middle with a flat tax rate, which would mean rich people would be paying WAY more than poor people. Don't even get me started on tax brackets, you're taxing people for being successful? That's just legalized theft and beyond mental.
Also, why do we never question income tax? That's a relatively new invention, you're telling me I now have to pay money to make money and then ALSO to spend money? That's fucked up, it's double dipping by the government and it's immoral.
You are goddamn right.
The conspiracy forums of the 90's went into this in great detail.
From my hazy memory I remember one very compelling argument. Something about the "Income tax" being unconstitutional. Something about graduated vs. direct taxes. Apparently for the first 100 years of this country only Trade goods were taxed.
In my opinion, poverty and murder follow Fiat money where ever it goes.
Well, since it's in the Constitution, income tax cannot be unconstitutional. Maybe the current administration of tax is unconstitutional, but the 16th Amendment is constructed very broadly and I'm not familiar with constitutional tax law.
Nailed it, OP. And Property Taxes on family homes are an unforgivable disgrace. Don't pay the Government their yearly bribe? They'll drag you and your kids out, kicking and screaming...then auction the house off to the highest bidder. Doesn't matter if you're a disabled vet, a paraplegic, a cancer survivor or Jesus himself. They own your family home...not you- you're just leasing it by the year.
Yep . That way you are forced to be productive. I understand it sucks but it makes sense. There are countries with really low property taxes and the land remains empty because the taxes are extremely low.
Second. Think about infrastructure. People move close to infrastructure where they have jobs. Then they retire . Now you have to options . Make the next generation LESS Productive and make them commute longer distance . Or implement tax and make the retirees move somewhere else. Again i understand it might suck but it makes sense.
it also makes sense to link everyone up to a machine to make sure nothing bad happens
70% of government spending is for the welfare state. It’s not about services, it’s about robbing Peter to pay Paul. Can’t rob Peter to pay Paul if everyone pays the same amount.
Income tax in general is theft, no need to even go into brackets or fairness. ?
They tax your dollar on the way in and on the way out.
Also if you try to save a dollar, they dilute the value.
By the time you use it, it's half the value it was.
Don't forget the secret tax of inflation!
How does it benefit the rich?
With a flat tax rate someone who makes 1 million/year pays 10X more taxes than someone who makes a hundred thousand.
The rich pay taxes at an unfairly high rate.
I understand how relative value works but I fundamentally disagree that it's the governments job to make sure people have enough money. I think that should be up to the individual person, if $400 is too much in tax they need to figure out a way to make more money or live with how much they have left, it doesn't justify stealing from rich people to create "equity". I'm not really concerned about how a certain amount of money is of different value to different people. I'm concerned with the ethics of expecting 1 person to pay for another random stranger without their consent. That's forced charity, we have avenues for charity but it certainly has no place in the tax system.
You are thinking of it wrong, it's about money in and value out. Think of it like this, if you an I go out for dinner and eat the same amount how should we split the bill? Based on how much we ate or how much we make?
2020 conspiracy theorists defending rich people from paying too much in taxes. Wildest timeline.
Call me crazy but I live and die by my ethics. I don't think it's alright to tear down my fellow man just because I'm jealous of them. I also defend poor people when they're treated unfairly.
American billionaires made enough money that they could give every American 3k and still have more money than they did before the pandemic started. And you post about how they pay too much in taxes, which they absolutely don’t. Won’t someone please think of the billionaires!
Looking forward to you using your immense knowledge of American taxes to defend the poor though.
So what? Are you going to go cut off Shaq's shins because he's taller than you? Life's not fair, just because you're dissatisfied with outcomes doesn't mean you get to hurt and steal from other people who for all intents and purposes have EARNED their that enormous amount of money.
Equity is the premise of the devil, be careful what your asking for because I don't think you realize you're ideas are trying to manifest a communist state. And if you've done you're research you'd know everyone starves to death in a communist state.
Which is something they SHOULDN'T FUCKING DO . Those that give people money for nothing ARE WORSE THAN DRUG DEALERS .
2020 conspiracy theorists defending middle class Americans paying too much in taxes that are given to politicians and monopoly corporations through crony capital system
And how can you quantify that?
You think someone who makes 1 million dollars gets 10x more (more when adjusted for tax brackets) out of the system than someone making 100 000, I sincerely doubt that.
I would argue that rich people actually use public systems less because they have the money to go the private route when they have a choice
Don't forget that the current tax code is written for the rich - you may see the top bracket is higher, but anyone that is smart is funneling their money to avoid taxes. For example, the nominal tax rate of a married couple making $120k/yr is 22%, or ~$26k in taxes every year.
But, the couple will use the standard deduction ($24k), and use some pre-tax deductions, such as 401k and HSA contributions, meaning they only pay 4% in taxes or about 5k. They have to throw almost half of their money - about $50k - into tax advantaged accounts - meaning they only have less than half of their income (about 55k) to spend on what they want. Honestly, it's basically enforced social security. Either pay 26k in taxes or save half your money for retirement. "free country"...
You want people to prefer saving money over spending it? Then put a sales tax on everything instead. I highly encourage saving, but my frustrations with 401k/ira/hsa are the complications behind it, and the # of "gotchas" waiting for you. You shouldn't be taxed for wanting to save for a down payment instead of retirement. Owning a house is a decent way to secure your money while having a place to live.
The more money you make, the less you have to follow the normal "rules" and you can start following the harder ones to follow. Business deductions galore.
It's a form of income redistribution. Power and wealth consolidate under capitalism, tax brackets are an attempt to mitigate this, antitrust laws too. Basically, America is a hybrid of ideas which often seem (and often are) inconsistent with one another.
I'm not convinced wealth should be redistributed to people who don't produce. People who produce the most value should have the most money because they're going to put it into the greatest use.
Power on the other hand, that we can talk about being distributed fairly. Wealth and state should definitely be separated. Public servants should not be getting rich off their positions.
While I don't necessarily support redistribution, certainly not in all forms, I think you make some assumptions when you say
I certainly agree. But are the wealthy in America today inherently the ones producing the most value? And if so, is it for reasons besides that they simply happen to be wealthy?
I think there's a good argument to be made for flat income tax, for all the reasons you state.
On the other hand, I think there's also a good argument to be made for limiting inheritance, as the achievements of one's parents are no reflection on their children. Rich kids using money they didn't earn to make more money off investments doesn't really make them "people who produce the most value", in my opinion. Certainly the royal families of old would be considered "people who produce the most value" in that light.
I agree, inheritance is the least fair way to make money, the recipient did nothing to earn it other than winning the genetic lottery. Also it creates concentrations of unearned wealth over generations. I understand the desire of parents to leave something to their kids and the issue with passing down family-owned businesses that can’t be liquidated or are hard to value, but directionally I would have no problem with a 100% inheritance tax over say $25 million.
I agree flat tax is probably the closest we can hit our lifetime but I don't really agree with inheritance tax. Why is it anyones right to take money from someone just because they were left it by their parents. That was a kind thing their family did for them and broke their backs to do at certain point in the past and now their punished for it?
That doesn't make sense, I think we should just focus on getting rid of taxes, not adding more.
It makes sense because of what you said earlier:
Inheritance completely sidesteps this merit-based distribution that you brought up, which I agree with.
No, they're not punished, they're dead. But in my opinion their children should not be rewarded for the efforts of their parents, or grandparents, or great-grandparents as the case may be.
Well you're entitled to your opinion but I couldn't disagree more, that treads on very similar ideals to what communism stands for.
I'd rather the government just leave me and mine alone, it's not up to them who has the money
Totally fair, have your own opinion. Just be aware of the tension between your desire for freedom of capital and your expectation that
I'm not saying that's my expectation, that's just how nature works. 20% of the people get 80% of the wealth because wealth is a direct result of value, the reason Bezos has so much money is because his companies produces the proportionate amount of value to society.
This distribution works that way in every natural system. In the rain forest 20% of the trees get 80% of the sunlight, in the animal kingdom the alpha male get's 80% of the females etc etc.
What I'm saying is it's natural for wealth to accumulate in a few people because we are creatures of nature. 20% of people produce 80% of the value in civilization and so they get the wealth, that's just the way it is we shouldn't try to "fix" it with manmade ideologies
Income tax in general is theft. You don't even need to talk about tax brackets or fairness. ?
Take a look at inheritance tax. So my kids have to pay taxes on the money I pass down to them, which I was already taxed for?
Yep it's retarded and infuriating, they're not even trying to hide it
Flat sales tax. If you're too broke to buy, you don't pay. If you're being paid under the table, you still pay.
Most importantly, abolish property tax. There's no true home or land ownership as long as it survives.
Bingo, you get it, that way people who consume more pay more tax and everyone wins
I seriously dont understand why it isnt done this way. Fewer loopholes and way less paperwork and stress
The other big legalized theft would have to be inflation...
I think the government has framed the tax debate to always be in favour of them, all people can talk about is who should we tax more? when instead we should be allies and push for lower taxes for everyone and for the government to focus on being more frugil and efficient.
Eh, I disagree. Look at what happens when one small elite class has all of the money. They literally try to enslave the entire world, like they're doing now. Tax brackets and tax rates were an attempt to mitigate this and keep any one group of people from becoming disproportionately powerful. Yeah it is the government doing it, but ideally the government should be for the people by the people. Of course, the richest and most elite have found ways to evade these taxes, so the whole system doesn't work to prevent the types of evils we are seeing today.
That's why we need to decouple money and politics, of course easier said than done.
Plato came up with a cool system of "Philosopher Kings" I'd recommend reading up on where society allowed people to gain amazing amounts of wealth but those people could never be in positions of political power and if you wanted to be in politics or ethical position in society you needed to give up your wealth.
It's a pipe dream but it shows we can come up with solutions where everyone wins.
I'm fine with a flat tax if you exclude the first $50,000 or so (number negotiable) of income from everyone as nontaxable.
Hmm I'm not sure about waving taxes on anyone, people need some accountability and that number seems kind of arbitrary. I still payed taxes when I was making 20k a year and I didn't die.
Perhaps poor people paying their taxes should be more an avenue of charity rather than government mandate. They still have to pay the same tax rate but they have easier access to charities where the supposed charitable ultra-rich can help them out
I'm not suggesting that we wave taxes. I'm saying we don't tax everyone for their first whatever amount we agree upon. Food, housing, normal traveling expenses. We don't tax the normal going rate of that on anyone. I don't want a government that takes in tax money a family needs for food. That seems really immoral.
Making people depend on charity isn't good for those people.
So it sounds like we agree, let's just get rid of all income tax. Everyone wins.
There's no such thing as freedom if you have to steal it from someone, I'm open to not taxing the first 50k if you also don't tax any amount after that too
Naahh ... lets make it the other way ... TAX the first k DOUBLE . Then the next 3k at 1.5x rate . And then the normal rate. That will teach you to be productive and find more productive ways to earn an income . merely surviving shouldn't get you a prize .
Well first and foremost i don't think any tax should go over 20%. Then .. yes i think some "jobs" are beyond retarded and should be discouraged through taxes.
There's no such thing as free, someone is always caught footing the bill. You just like that it's not you
But not really, you are looking at taxes incorrectly, you're viewing them as an obligation to pay into rather than a collective bill for public utilities that we equally share and so should equally pay off.