Yes, and no pope every said any teaching was infallible, they only said some teachings would be infallible if conditions are met but they never told us infallibly that all those conditions have ever been met. Simon didn't say. Not a troll.
To criticize RC for rejecting beliefs held to be infallible misses the point. The correct critique of the RC position is that the popes let everyone think infallible teachings had been issued, and then let them argue freely over how many (one, two, or hundreds), but Simon never said any infallible teachings had been issued. The pope always waits until everyone agrees or is dead and then declares the doctrine, he's much cagier than you give him credit for.
Yes, and no pope every said any teaching was infallible, they only said some teachings would be infallible if conditions are met but they never told us infallibly that all those conditions have ever been met. Simon didn't say. Not a troll.
Refer to my comment where I quote Vatican I. Official Vatican teachings on faith and morals are infallible. Catholics have been told but they play dumb because they want to larp as protestants going against the Pope's teaching when it doesn't suit them.
Again, even if they were non-infalliable, they require religious and intellectual submission by all Catholics and it's absolutely inadmissible to denounce them publicly. This is an affront to the magisterium.
I told you what Vatican I says. When he meets the conditions, his speech is infallible. But he's never infallibly stated that he's met the conditions. There are zero official (ex cathedra) teachings. That's the whole game, and it was discovered by Irish Protestants shortly after Vatican I was first analyzed.
Catholics have always been free to speak against the magisterium up until the hierarchy actually cracks down, and that's true during the first millennium too. The pope could never rein in everybody so instead he (does the same thing as the fake media and the science cabal and) gets everyone to think that only his group is authoritative without ever saying so or proving it.
Funny, when I criticize Catholics for breaking the magisterium, they just tell me (their consciences rule) that they didn't break it, proving my point of private interpretation that seeks to follow and build on tradition. But they've missed that point because they've been blinded to when they're responsible for speaking infallibly (often) versus when the pope is (never). Being my own pope, I know that everything I say is responsible to be as infallible as possible, so I have the greater seriousness in my statements.
I told you what Vatican I says. When he meets the conditions, his speech is infallible. But he's never infallibly stated that he's met the conditions. There are zero official (ex cathedra) teachings.
That's false. Any official pronunciation made by the Vatican is ex cathedra by definition. Anything starting with "We declare, pronounce, and define" is considered infallible doctrinal teaching. Examples of ex cathedra statements are Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.
Catholics have always been free to speak against the magisterium up until the hierarchy actually cracks down, and that's true during the first millennium too. The pope could never rein in everybody so instead he (does the same thing as the fake media and the science cabal and) gets everyone to think that only his group is authoritative without ever saying so or proving it.
That line of defense worked before Vatican I. But it asserts that Catholics must submit to all teachings dealing with faith and morals so no more of that bs.
The crux of the matter is no single person or a group of Catholics can go against the Pope and dispute his teachings, even if they are not ex cathedra. Such an action defies the essence of the papacy which places ultimate authority in one guy in Rome, i.e. it's centralized. The system stands and falls with this guy.
Those are the two I was referring two. But some say it's only one, the Assumption, and some say it's hundreds of ex cathedra magisterial pronouncements, and (guess what) there is no infallible guide to tell me how many infallible statements there are. They simply institutionalized the circularity without the people seeing it.
The pope said here's the definition of declaring ex cathedra, and then the pope said now I'm declaring something, and then the pope left you and me holding the bag as to determining infallibly whether he declared ex cathedra or not. That's how he keeps himself off the hook: if he needs to declare later it wasn't ex cathedra, he still can, he has plausible deniability, he only needs to say "Simon didn't say". The idea that the Assumption is infallibly declared only arises on your infallible authority, not the pope's, because he didn't apply the definition to the declaration, you did. He's free, the hapless Catholic is stuck and doesn't even realize he's holding the bag.
But that's a consequence of the Catholic always being asked to suspend his own authority to decide except in the case of deciding to whom he will delegate his authority to decide. (And that problem is shared with some Orthodox.) The Church gives you no help whatsoever in sharing your responsibility for rightly or wrongly deciding that the Church you're speaking of is in fact (part of) the same church Jesus established. It cannot share that responsibility with you because it's your free will. Any Church or cult can claim total authority after you make that one decision on your own authority to delegate all authority to it; and that's why the Orthodox claim is no different from the claims of the others. Until you see it you'll still be stuck in that claim of self-sustenance that the Orthodox (or Catholic) Church doesn't actually make for itself: you need to see that that you delegated to the Church your authority to make decisions, but you cannot logically delegate your authority to decide at the same time as exercising your authority to decide (to delegate). Each person is responsible for the use of his freewill, even if he only ever uses his freewill once to make himself the passive slave of some magisterium. The actual claim any Church should make is not infallibility but (Joan of Arc) to hope to stay right if right and to be put right if wrong. Only Jesus can remove or retain a candlestick, not the candlestick.
Vatican I effectively shut up the Catholics but stopped short of saying the Immaculate Conception was infallible, which is why Catholics today still are unsure whether it should be counted. It was use of force and threat, not actual use of a power of infallibility. If the Catholic or Orthodox are incorrect about who they've sainted, we'll all laugh about it in heaven, it was never an earthly perfection that they had to work so hard to defend their rightness about (and thereby prevent the living from recognizing their own saintedness but keep them in a state of doubt that can transfer to the afterlife). But for those whose system depends upon being right at all costs, unlike Joan of Arc's system, there is always the risk of pride preceding a fall. I don't think the Catholic or Orthodox will lose their place utterly, but the Catholics are cruising for a bruising and I have no eschatology that preserves either organizational name; only the invisible church is knowably preserved. (Incidentally, my doubt about the Churches might be paralleled to the hierarchs' doubt about individual sainthoods and salvations; perhaps I should be more confident about both Churches just as they should be more confident about my sainthood. But then that suggests that the problem is that we all lack spiritual discernment of each other and our organizational destinies, and resolving that might be the direction we should each take.)
no single person or a group of Catholics can go against the Pope and dispute his teachings, even if they are not ex cathedra.
Since Orthodox and Protestants are fond of pointing out that the Pope has been successfully refuted repeatedly in the earliest days, and since the Church is semper idem, that hasn't changed. If Vatican I was truly a change it'd be a problem, but it was deliberately phrased in such way that it wouldn't be a change to the same Catholic-Orthodox system in which the Bishop of Rome can be overcome if the other bishops are wise and connected enough. Also, since the Orthodox still pretty well agree with Roman primacy if Rome isn't schismatic, without agreeing with Roman superiority, the crux is the claims of superiority, not of the pope having a unique ultimate authority alone. That quibble is only important because the path to unity and resolving the conflict would involve the Orthodox and the Catholics both admitting that the pope didn't actually mean to claim a superiority he didn't have; and in my (perhaps scholastic) understanding of the pope's pronouncements, he didn't.
I appreciate your continuing to give me the grace of interaction, I hope that by one means or another our comms get through.
Add: It might be thought of this way. One pope really wanted Mary to be glorified so wrote up, and got approved, the Immaculate Conception with a really high-sounding set of declaration clauses that had never been used before so that he would win over those who weren't certain he should go that far. That didn't work, so the later pope put forward Infallibility to try to patch up what the prior pope had done and to shut up the argument, but without actually saying that the Immaculate Conception was in fact infallible (or, for that matter, saying the Infallibility declaration was itself infallible, important point). That worked to get the sheeple quiet but it didn't help the Protestant argument against circularity, which remained. So the next later pope found occasion to try to cement the Infallibility doctrine by repeating almost the same magic formula as Conception in the Assumption doctrine as if the repetition would do the trick. Well, that led many to think there were now two infallible doctrines praise God, but they hadn't realized the new was no more declared infallible than the old. Simply defining infallibility doesn't infallibly declare how the ordinary person can infallibly decide a doctrine is infallible. Note that no pope ever had the simple gumption of John the Revelator who ended all discussion of circularity by saying self-referentially that THIS prophecy is not to be added to or subtracted from. And by my count no pope ever will. If Infallibility was ever declared it was declared once and for all by John, never to be repeated. The Revelation is Infallible by its own declaration, and the Bible is Infallible by application of John's meaning as closing the then-open canon. But Chicago Leo? Pfft.
Yes, and no pope every said any teaching was infallible, they only said some teachings would be infallible if conditions are met but they never told us infallibly that all those conditions have ever been met. Simon didn't say. Not a troll.
To criticize RC for rejecting beliefs held to be infallible misses the point. The correct critique of the RC position is that the popes let everyone think infallible teachings had been issued, and then let them argue freely over how many (one, two, or hundreds), but Simon never said any infallible teachings had been issued. The pope always waits until everyone agrees or is dead and then declares the doctrine, he's much cagier than you give him credit for.
Refer to my comment where I quote Vatican I. Official Vatican teachings on faith and morals are infallible. Catholics have been told but they play dumb because they want to larp as protestants going against the Pope's teaching when it doesn't suit them.
Again, even if they were non-infalliable, they require religious and intellectual submission by all Catholics and it's absolutely inadmissible to denounce them publicly. This is an affront to the magisterium.
I told you what Vatican I says. When he meets the conditions, his speech is infallible. But he's never infallibly stated that he's met the conditions. There are zero official (ex cathedra) teachings. That's the whole game, and it was discovered by Irish Protestants shortly after Vatican I was first analyzed.
Catholics have always been free to speak against the magisterium up until the hierarchy actually cracks down, and that's true during the first millennium too. The pope could never rein in everybody so instead he (does the same thing as the fake media and the science cabal and) gets everyone to think that only his group is authoritative without ever saying so or proving it.
Funny, when I criticize Catholics for breaking the magisterium, they just tell me (their consciences rule) that they didn't break it, proving my point of private interpretation that seeks to follow and build on tradition. But they've missed that point because they've been blinded to when they're responsible for speaking infallibly (often) versus when the pope is (never). Being my own pope, I know that everything I say is responsible to be as infallible as possible, so I have the greater seriousness in my statements.
That's false. Any official pronunciation made by the Vatican is ex cathedra by definition. Anything starting with "We declare, pronounce, and define" is considered infallible doctrinal teaching. Examples of ex cathedra statements are Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.
That line of defense worked before Vatican I. But it asserts that Catholics must submit to all teachings dealing with faith and morals so no more of that bs.
The crux of the matter is no single person or a group of Catholics can go against the Pope and dispute his teachings, even if they are not ex cathedra. Such an action defies the essence of the papacy which places ultimate authority in one guy in Rome, i.e. it's centralized. The system stands and falls with this guy.
Those are the two I was referring two. But some say it's only one, the Assumption, and some say it's hundreds of ex cathedra magisterial pronouncements, and (guess what) there is no infallible guide to tell me how many infallible statements there are. They simply institutionalized the circularity without the people seeing it.
The pope said here's the definition of declaring ex cathedra, and then the pope said now I'm declaring something, and then the pope left you and me holding the bag as to determining infallibly whether he declared ex cathedra or not. That's how he keeps himself off the hook: if he needs to declare later it wasn't ex cathedra, he still can, he has plausible deniability, he only needs to say "Simon didn't say". The idea that the Assumption is infallibly declared only arises on your infallible authority, not the pope's, because he didn't apply the definition to the declaration, you did. He's free, the hapless Catholic is stuck and doesn't even realize he's holding the bag.
But that's a consequence of the Catholic always being asked to suspend his own authority to decide except in the case of deciding to whom he will delegate his authority to decide. (And that problem is shared with some Orthodox.) The Church gives you no help whatsoever in sharing your responsibility for rightly or wrongly deciding that the Church you're speaking of is in fact (part of) the same church Jesus established. It cannot share that responsibility with you because it's your free will. Any Church or cult can claim total authority after you make that one decision on your own authority to delegate all authority to it; and that's why the Orthodox claim is no different from the claims of the others. Until you see it you'll still be stuck in that claim of self-sustenance that the Orthodox (or Catholic) Church doesn't actually make for itself: you need to see that that you delegated to the Church your authority to make decisions, but you cannot logically delegate your authority to decide at the same time as exercising your authority to decide (to delegate). Each person is responsible for the use of his freewill, even if he only ever uses his freewill once to make himself the passive slave of some magisterium. The actual claim any Church should make is not infallibility but (Joan of Arc) to hope to stay right if right and to be put right if wrong. Only Jesus can remove or retain a candlestick, not the candlestick.
Vatican I effectively shut up the Catholics but stopped short of saying the Immaculate Conception was infallible, which is why Catholics today still are unsure whether it should be counted. It was use of force and threat, not actual use of a power of infallibility. If the Catholic or Orthodox are incorrect about who they've sainted, we'll all laugh about it in heaven, it was never an earthly perfection that they had to work so hard to defend their rightness about (and thereby prevent the living from recognizing their own saintedness but keep them in a state of doubt that can transfer to the afterlife). But for those whose system depends upon being right at all costs, unlike Joan of Arc's system, there is always the risk of pride preceding a fall. I don't think the Catholic or Orthodox will lose their place utterly, but the Catholics are cruising for a bruising and I have no eschatology that preserves either organizational name; only the invisible church is knowably preserved. (Incidentally, my doubt about the Churches might be paralleled to the hierarchs' doubt about individual sainthoods and salvations; perhaps I should be more confident about both Churches just as they should be more confident about my sainthood. But then that suggests that the problem is that we all lack spiritual discernment of each other and our organizational destinies, and resolving that might be the direction we should each take.)
Since Orthodox and Protestants are fond of pointing out that the Pope has been successfully refuted repeatedly in the earliest days, and since the Church is semper idem, that hasn't changed. If Vatican I was truly a change it'd be a problem, but it was deliberately phrased in such way that it wouldn't be a change to the same Catholic-Orthodox system in which the Bishop of Rome can be overcome if the other bishops are wise and connected enough. Also, since the Orthodox still pretty well agree with Roman primacy if Rome isn't schismatic, without agreeing with Roman superiority, the crux is the claims of superiority, not of the pope having a unique ultimate authority alone. That quibble is only important because the path to unity and resolving the conflict would involve the Orthodox and the Catholics both admitting that the pope didn't actually mean to claim a superiority he didn't have; and in my (perhaps scholastic) understanding of the pope's pronouncements, he didn't.
I appreciate your continuing to give me the grace of interaction, I hope that by one means or another our comms get through.
Add: It might be thought of this way. One pope really wanted Mary to be glorified so wrote up, and got approved, the Immaculate Conception with a really high-sounding set of declaration clauses that had never been used before so that he would win over those who weren't certain he should go that far. That didn't work, so the later pope put forward Infallibility to try to patch up what the prior pope had done and to shut up the argument, but without actually saying that the Immaculate Conception was in fact infallible (or, for that matter, saying the Infallibility declaration was itself infallible, important point). That worked to get the sheeple quiet but it didn't help the Protestant argument against circularity, which remained. So the next later pope found occasion to try to cement the Infallibility doctrine by repeating almost the same magic formula as Conception in the Assumption doctrine as if the repetition would do the trick. Well, that led many to think there were now two infallible doctrines praise God, but they hadn't realized the new was no more declared infallible than the old. Simply defining infallibility doesn't infallibly declare how the ordinary person can infallibly decide a doctrine is infallible. Note that no pope ever had the simple gumption of John the Revelator who ended all discussion of circularity by saying self-referentially that THIS prophecy is not to be added to or subtracted from. And by my count no pope ever will. If Infallibility was ever declared it was declared once and for all by John, never to be repeated. The Revelation is Infallible by its own declaration, and the Bible is Infallible by application of John's meaning as closing the then-open canon. But Chicago Leo? Pfft.