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11
Why do we call them kikes? (files.catbox.moe)
posted 18 days ago by JosephGoebbel5 18 days ago by JosephGoebbel5 +16 / -5
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– SmithW1984 2 points 16 days ago +2 / -0

Judaism as a system does not have an official position on his messiahship. (The official position is that the Sanhedrin did offer him all rights during his trial, and that nobody has completed all the works of Messiah yet, but it says nothing about his power to complete them.)

That's a contradiction. If they claim nobody has completed the works of the Messiah yet, this means that Jesus was not the Messiah - Him having the power or not is irrelevant to the question and an obvious red herring. I had my suspicion and gave you the benefit of the doubt but reading such pure sophistry makes me think you are not acting in good faith and run an agenda here (something other users have claimed).

My challenge to everyone stands: Find a congregational rabbi or rabbinical org that teaches that Judaism requires rejection of Jesus as Messiah.

Now now, you're getting smart with me. I said Jesus being God, not just Moshiach. Find me a rabbi who would agree with that and not call worshiping Jesus Christ as God idolatry, blasphemy and polytheism. Come on dude, you're insulting me at this point. I'm too knowledgeable on Church history, theology and philosophy for your word games to work. You're wasting taxpayer money on me.

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– SwampRangers 1 point 16 days ago +1 / -0

Jesus completed the work of suffering in our place, and has not completed the work of preparing our eternal habitation. Judaism does teach that Messiah has been prepared from eternity, which in some readings indicates eternal existence, and it does teach that Messiah may be someone already born (which is why Schneersohn was revered) and maybe even someone who already died who would need to rise from the dead (I can look up that quote if you like). Judaism even has official known strands of Suffering Messiah theology and Is. 53 interpretation, which it naturally suppresses as if by "bad conscience". It doesn't mean that they teach Jesus was not Messiah, it means Maimonides finessed the question for a very long time by pointing out that Jesus hasn't completed the full work of Messiah yet, with which we agree in his terms (no Messianic Age yet). In that official finesse they are agnostic about whether Jesus's crosswork is actually part of the Messiah's work or not; it's unrevealed to them. And that's where they need to see themselves to be able to receive our good news, and where many secular Jews are when they accept the good news and become Messianics (Christians).

I'm not trying to get smart, I'm giving my accurate view after a long consideration and after working in Hebrew roots. I do believe as a covenantalist that Christianity benefits by a full understanding of the OT context, and I do accept that others have subverted Hebrew roots to divert church members into legalism and I warn against that and accept the confusion about my motives; but aside from promoting my local Christian distinctives like everyone else does because they're local to me, I have no agenda and will happily do Jesus's work alongside any brother. I appreciate your continuing to extend me good faith to the degree you're able. If the Church's view on Jewish evangelism should take some other tack, then because I work for Jewish evangelism I'll support that tack.

So, yeah, I didn't intend to exclude by my statement, I would also accept an official teaching that Jesus is not God if there was one. To try to avoid by saying "no mere man can be God" doesn't help them because they know we teach Jesus was no mere man. There are enough hints in official Judaism that God has some aspect of plurality in him, and that there are certain manifestations of his energies (notably the Torah) that have Deity in them in some sense, that we might be able to build with them on it. It's not that the rabbis agree Jesus is God, it's that they avoid the question entirely, and when they discuss God's manifestation they use the complexity of Ezekiel 1 et al. to defer the question of what it looks like when God manifests "as a man". They simply refuse to develop the theology, knowing the risk to them of deigning to investigate in any way beyond their safe boundaries.

Jew tells rabbi "My son went to Israel and came back a Christian". Rabbi says "Funny you say that, my son did the same, I'll ask the chief rabbi". Chief rabbi says "Funny you say that, my son did the same, I'll ask God." God says "Funny you say that ...."

(And my joke about taxpayer money is: I'm getting paid twice as much for this comment, twice nothing is nothing. I'm public as a volunteer for Scott Lively's SwampRangers.com for 5 years, we have a very orthodox confession there.)

So for Jews the continuity of their existence is very really tied up with the avoidance of the question, and Messianics get disowned and have a double challenge of not being counted Jews and often not being counted Christians. After centuries of being persecuted when their constituents insult Jesus, they cannot afford to make a halakhic ruling against Jesus or even for him in any way! That's the only way I can explain the lack of evidence. It's mystifying and so I totally understand if it's confusing at first; very few churches major in Jewish evangelism and it's always a culture shock. But at any rate I'm thankful for your presence here and your seeking to understand, and in Christ we know that we will get to the same page on it someday (I take that literally from Eph. 4:13).

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