Why do we call them kikes?
(files.catbox.moe)
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Touche! My bad. All the same you're in a forum and platform where very many use collectivist language like "the Jews did" to mean a charge against every man, woman, and child. So I'll be happy to trust that you're not intending that, and not worry about it unless some other intent manifests clearly.
What Jesus meant in the plain sense in Rev. 2:9, 3:9 was clearly historically defined by the very interesting letters of Ignatius (which I anticipate Orthodoxy reveres). Ignatius described exactly those two cities as hosting a group of Gentiles who talk about Judaism and not Jesus Christ (Philadelphians 6:1). This was about 12 years after Jesus prophesied concerning them, and we can infer from Ignatius that they did literally worship at his feet in repentance just as Jesus prophesied. (What Ignatius literally said was that they received his personal preaching and need no further criticism, indicating repentance, 6:3; and that they thought his Spirit-revealed information was humanly orchestrated in relation to their schism, indicating their being shocked by the miraculous revelation, 7:2.) I'd been praying for decades to know what happened in those two churches that Jesus was prophesying about, and then suddenly he revealed it to me and I wrote that summary.
Now those who care little for Ignatius or history have for some time used "synagogue of satan" in a very different sense that is very little related to Jesus's words or primary intent, even though he knew this twist of language would happen. I don't think he wants me to countenance letting the language slip when the history is so clear, so I point out the reality to people. There is very truly a broad work of satan to infiltrate many, and to poison the Jews in very special ways, and in the article I indicated the seed of discerning seven different works of satan warned against in Rev. 2-3, among which the infiltration in Rabbinical Judaism is a single hydra head. Analytically I warned that those Jews who are satanists are more likely best categorized as a "dwelling of satan" because they reflect Pergamum syncretization. That part may be semantic, but I find it necessary to direct people away from collectivism.
I don't think so; Moses repeatedly said love the stranger as yourself and have the same law for the stranger and yourself. Othering is imposing collectivism on outsiders. "Gentiles" is the ordinary word for nations, which I showed applies to the nation of Israel too. There are many cases in the Bible and Talmud where Jews or Gentiles insult other people-groups; Jesus is accused of doing it by parabolically comparing the Syro-Phoenician to a dog, and by calling Pharisees vipers. I believe direct accusation like that is only justified by reference to immediate evidence at hand and not to an unstated narrative (racism); and it should never include the innocent (e.g. children) with the guilty. So we shouldn't tell Jews they're not Jews, and Jews shouldn't tell whites that Jews count as white and not as white as convenient.
I've asked for evidence of that and it doesn't come from either Khazaria or Edom (which were intermarriage mergers) so I don't think there is any.
I didn't say that; I said that anti-Christian sentiments were never made a point of Jewish theology, even though they circulated among the people. The closest we have is the "blessing" against the "minim", which doesn't mean Christian but any separatist, sectarian, or apostate. Though some would have used it conscientiously against Christians, that would be an individual judgment of the speaker separating himself from Christianity, and we don't have historical showing that that's what was intended. What we do have is a debate of "minim" with Rabbi Simlai, in which the minim are not proto-trinitarians at all but are indistinguishable from gnostic tritheists! Well of course we agree with cursing tritheists!
Absolutely! And on this point we should not judge formally without catching them in the act; that's the same credit the Church gave heretics. But I don't know an anathema against Jews, only (mostly Roman) restrictions.
I respect that testimony. Individuals will be judged, but judging the system is about judging what it does directly by delegation, not by what people do in it individually.
Yes, some believe in the nonverbal demonstration of purity from alleged idolatry. The individual who judges a Christian will be judged; but the rabbis distance themselves from the individual's judgment. I suppose if we caught the rabbi defending the judgment of Christianity as idolatry, that might meet my standard, but they generally don't.
Maybe I'm wrong to give them this much credit based on the fact that their Scriptures and traditions should point them to Jesus the Messiah and the goal of sharing good news by allowing them the environment to discover it for real. But as long as they toe a minimum standard, one which has kept Jewish-Christian relations from spilling over against them, I don't believe in more belligerence.
All the faithful Israelites believed in Messiah's coming and can indeed be called Christian. And Rabbinical Judaism can indeed be called a sectarian, but the two sides split in the fog of war (primarily in 68 when Messianic Jews fled Jerusalem and Temple Jews stayed, as Jesus prophesied) so I wouldn't put schism on either at that point. But (as Catholics and Orthodox claim the same church history) Jews and Christians claim the same covenant history. It seems to me enough Catholics are doing right to keep the name alive (you might disagree), and it's unlikely enough Rabbinical Jews are openly doing right to keep their name alive (but about a million Messianic Jews are doing right), but the dilemma is very similar. So even as I grant them access to the same tomb of Abraham as myself, I'm aware not to conflate.
Correct, Judaizers meaning legalists of any kind, but not Judaism when it should mean the true original faith of the Jews. When Rabbinical Judaism misrepresents and twists, we can politely criticize, and be heard if we have their willingness to listen.
But see, after hundreds of the rabble repented to Peter and became charter Orthodox Christians, the perpetuation of the Pharisaic system into Rabbinical Judaism never took a side against Jesus. In fact, Hillel the Pharisee ruled as Sanhedrin president (nasi) on behalf of all Jews that Judaism's official position is Wait And See. (And Maimonides respected that for all his talk about Jesus.) The Pharisees who became Christians merged into the polity of the Christianity of all nations; the Pharisees who didn't tried to preserve Hillel's stance and maintain a temple-less system under great provocation, and God by his grace let them have a flickering flame to do so. For the praise of his glory in revealing the truth in this generation, BTW. So I should probably frame it that way: the official Jewish position has never departed from Wait And See, even as individual later rabbis (I only know of one for sure, Ulla c. 300) did personally reject Jesus directly.
Granted, that was Paul. So you mean a transformation (fulfillment) from symbol to actualization in Jesus. Now, I ask people to consider Jesus's other clause, nonabolition ....
I find no evidence that it was inappropriate afterward either, or that non-temple traditions were inappropriate, if people accepted them willingly, from the heart, and with gratitude for what God had revealed and trust in what was yet to be revealed. If Jesus was revealed to a person who knowingly rejected the revelation, that's not trust in God; but many Jews today stand in the same position as remote unreached peoples in that their culture has insulated them against getting any meaningful revelation about the good news of Jesus, and so they have not provably consciously rejected him. Paul says someday they will get it, the light will come on en masse, and the day of resurrection will be at hand; and I can participate in that process.
Because the Law is received voluntarily: all Noah's family received his laws for their people (everyone), and all Moses's family received his laws for their people (the Jews). As the Recabites show, as well as Romans 14, anyone who volunteers to take on a higher law is welcome to do so on the same terms of having (receiving) a regenerated heart seeking God. Jesus came to volunteer to keep the highest law and then to take the penalty for those who broke the simplest law. I asked God about this for decades and finally realized that the Torah was never a "have to" situation for anyone; all keeping of any law, simple or complex, is because we "get to" (that's Christian liberty, unto law).
Torah practices remained an open question in the church for about 300 years; Quartodecimans and Ebionites and others tried to work out the harmony, though some went overboard. The bishop of Rome tried once to impose a Gentile Easter, but blessed Irenaeus stopped him and counseled diversity in nonessentials. In the fourth century the bishop of Rome tried again and succeeded in quelling most all Jewish-related rituals, suspending the discussion of proper harmony by fiat, which is one reason the other four pentarchs started making the case against him as you're familiar. So "not the Torah" was not a testimony of the primitive church, only the Constantinian Roman faction, which was tolerated by the East until a time it could be settled.
God bless, and more power to you! Now, surprise, I reveal to you something unknown but that doesn't conflict with your tradition. By continuing Jesus's symbol of eating an innocent lamb and symbolizing our innocence in union with him, you are in fact doing just what Moses described as sacrifice. I'm unfamiliar with whether your region also uses bitter herbs as Moses said; I presume you use unleavened bread for the Divine Liturgy; and the exact dating has long been a quibble; but you're offering an animal to God and communally partaking of the symbol of innocence, which was his point. And, Levitically, it's the one cookout that is permitted to be done in the absence of a temple. So it would be an affront to do it in a church, but in a home it's something that can be given to God and prayed over and received. When Abel and Jesus and Paul had animal sacrifices offered, it was not an affront, because it was by faith; God always says the affront is when it's not by faith, but to seek personal merit and self-righteousness.
That's a theory of law; when I looked into it I found several NT passages indicating a different theory, that the change was not about what we gratefully respond to God with, but it was in the fact that the perfect life of righteousness had been completed. What had been prophesied for our righteousness was now made certain by the revelation of the event. And when it happened nobody changed their practice of law immediately; they kept doing the same things they had done before. (The most salient thing they kept doing that took on new meaning was the havdalah meeting that Jews had kept for centuries before Christ, on what we call Saturday night, closing the Sabbath. Acts makes clear that this meeting, particularly at Troas, is what was transformed into the Sunday morning service over a few decades. That is no real change at all to a tradition inspired by the Mosaic Sabbath, it is only a movement from nonregulation to regulation.)
There were other changes, like the harrowing of hell that improved the status of those righteous in sheol, and the suddenness of the new church's growth. The pre-fallen human nature, made certain by Christ's death and resurrection, appears to be something that was always available to the righteous in the OT too: it's the regenerated spirit. There is a change of language associated with that; often but not always the OT has the Spirit "with" or "on" and the NT has the Spirit "in" the believer. But it appears the new heart is the same in Moses (Deut. 30) as it is in the NT.
Paul agreed with that ruling; it was the first Orthodox Council; and for 300 years it was used by all of the Hebrew-roots groups of Christians. And its removal via Rome was sus. So I'm not confident that Scripture or tradition reveals that it was provisional, circumstantial, and temporary. The text literally says they can learn Moses any Sabbath, even though many (I did too) read it as implying they can't learn anything more from Moses any Sabbath.
Except that the Church cuts deals with various subgroups to give them different cultural traditions (the 17 autocephalous Orthodox churches); or when it differentiates Byzantine from Western Rite. When I realized that both the Orthodox and the Catholics did that, and made distinctions among themselves, I felt a lot better about both the Protestants and the Hebrew-roots Christians.
And I say the physical is also left to us despite the transcendence also appearing alongside it. We are to make the best physical we know, and I believe that learning what Jesus himself practiced is the best practice for being ready to serve his pleasure both now and at this return. The idea floating around that there is no physical left, or that the physical is discontinuous with the past physical, is a theory added to Scripture, and to tradition. Thank you again for your deep consideration.
Look, I appreciate your comment but we can argue about those points all day long and I really don't have the time to do that so I'll cut to the chase.
Here's the core of my argument: Jews within Judaism (excluding the secular jews) believe Christians are much worse than pagans/gentiles idolaters. They believe we worship the one true God as them, but that we have perverted the word of God and have spread our blasphemous heresy all over the world. Just put yourself in their shoes. If they truly love God above anything else, there's literally no bigger sin than being a Christian. No matter how hard you try to ease the dialectical tension between Judaism and Christianity and to appeal to communality in history, faith and rituals - if anything, this semblance enrages them even more because it's so much worse to pervert the truth and mix it with lies than to outright deny it and to prop up some obvious falsehood. You can't massage the glaring contradiction of Christ being God vs Christ being a false messiah away with words. This issue decides who is worships God and who's the worst heretic and blasphemer to ever exist.
This is the Judaism perspective. Keeping this in mind, it's absurd to claim Judaism and it's theological teaching isn't hostile towards Christianity. There's no point in arguing about minutia when the big picture tells you all you need to know.
Great summary and thanks for letting the thoughts simmer as I am continuing to think through yours. That does crystallize the question such that I would only make the distinction that many individual Jews regard Jesus as a false messiah but Judaism as a system does not have an official position on his messiahship. (The official position is that the Sanhedrin did offer him all rights during his trial, and that nobody has completed all the works of Messiah yet, but it says nothing about his power to complete them.)
So I give indivdual Jews credit unless they enunciate their disregard for Jesus: I do not charge them with being in a system where disregard for Jesus is tolerated and not yet officially acted on, in exactly the same way I do not charge any church members with being in a system where sexual sin is tolerated and not sufficiently officially acted on. (Pick which group of Christians you think has the highest per capita sex offender rate among clergy, I don't know which, and compare that situation.) Because I don't entertain individual accusations against elders (even in Jewish or secular organizations), I extend them trust that they're working on it, with what help they may accept from us, as long as no official statement is made.
My challenge to everyone stands: Find a congregational rabbi or rabbinical org that teaches that Judaism requires rejection of Jesus as Messiah. I tried, and others have tried, but it hasn't come up. Tovia Singer was brought up, he's an antimissionary (there are a couple other notable ones) who takes the title "rabbi" but he does not have a congregation or a right to determine collective Jewish halakhah AFAIK. The fact that antimissionaries believe Judaism should take the position you describe indicates that it doesn't actually take that position formally. So at the same time as I understand your attributing the position to Judaism, I patiently decline to judge that case when no evidence has been presented by anyone despite search.
That's a contradiction. If they claim nobody has completed the works of the Messiah yet, this means that Jesus was not the Messiah - Him having the power or not is irrelevant to the question and an obvious red herring. I had my suspicion and gave you the benefit of the doubt but reading such pure sophistry makes me think you are not acting in good faith and run an agenda here (something other users have claimed).
Now now, you're getting smart with me. I said Jesus being God, not just Moshiach. Find me a rabbi who would agree with that and not call worshiping Jesus Christ as God idolatry, blasphemy and polytheism. Come on dude, you're insulting me at this point. I'm too knowledgeable on Church history, theology and philosophy for your word games to work. You're wasting taxpayer money on me.
Jesus completed the work of suffering in our place, and has not completed the work of preparing our eternal habitation. Judaism does teach that Messiah has been prepared from eternity, which in some readings indicates eternal existence, and it does teach that Messiah may be someone already born (which is why Schneersohn was revered) and maybe even someone who already died who would need to rise from the dead (I can look up that quote if you like). Judaism even has official known strands of Suffering Messiah theology and Is. 53 interpretation, which it naturally suppresses as if by "bad conscience". It doesn't mean that they teach Jesus was not Messiah, it means Maimonides finessed the question for a very long time by pointing out that Jesus hasn't completed the full work of Messiah yet, with which we agree in his terms (no Messianic Age yet). In that official finesse they are agnostic about whether Jesus's crosswork is actually part of the Messiah's work or not; it's unrevealed to them. And that's where they need to see themselves to be able to receive our good news, and where many secular Jews are when they accept the good news and become Messianics (Christians).
I'm not trying to get smart, I'm giving my accurate view after a long consideration and after working in Hebrew roots. I do believe as a covenantalist that Christianity benefits by a full understanding of the OT context, and I do accept that others have subverted Hebrew roots to divert church members into legalism and I warn against that and accept the confusion about my motives; but aside from promoting my local Christian distinctives like everyone else does because they're local to me, I have no agenda and will happily do Jesus's work alongside any brother. I appreciate your continuing to extend me good faith to the degree you're able. If the Church's view on Jewish evangelism should take some other tack, then because I work for Jewish evangelism I'll support that tack.
So, yeah, I didn't intend to exclude by my statement, I would also accept an official teaching that Jesus is not God if there was one. To try to avoid by saying "no mere man can be God" doesn't help them because they know we teach Jesus was no mere man. There are enough hints in official Judaism that God has some aspect of plurality in him, and that there are certain manifestations of his energies (notably the Torah) that have Deity in them in some sense, that we might be able to build with them on it. It's not that the rabbis agree Jesus is God, it's that they avoid the question entirely, and when they discuss God's manifestation they use the complexity of Ezekiel 1 et al. to defer the question of what it looks like when God manifests "as a man". They simply refuse to develop the theology, knowing the risk to them of deigning to investigate in any way beyond their safe boundaries.
Jew tells rabbi "My son went to Israel and came back a Christian". Rabbi says "Funny you say that, my son did the same, I'll ask the chief rabbi". Chief rabbi says "Funny you say that, my son did the same, I'll ask God." God says "Funny you say that ...."
(And my joke about taxpayer money is: I'm getting paid twice as much for this comment, twice nothing is nothing. I'm public as a volunteer for Scott Lively's SwampRangers.com for 5 years, we have a very orthodox confession there.)
So for Jews the continuity of their existence is very really tied up with the avoidance of the question, and Messianics get disowned and have a double challenge of not being counted Jews and often not being counted Christians. After centuries of being persecuted when their constituents insult Jesus, they cannot afford to make a halakhic ruling against Jesus or even for him in any way! That's the only way I can explain the lack of evidence. It's mystifying and so I totally understand if it's confusing at first; very few churches major in Jewish evangelism and it's always a culture shock. But at any rate I'm thankful for your presence here and your seeking to understand, and in Christ we know that we will get to the same page on it someday (I take that literally from Eph. 4:13).