Since this field gets little traction here, I anticipate very little interest in this challenge.
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Two billion Christians are committed to a record (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) indicating we are now in the 6,018th year of the cosmos (James Ussher: 6,029th).
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Two billion other theists (mostly Muslims and Jews) are committed to the same record. Jews make this 5786 AM, recognizing that the Seder Olam Rabbah deliberately skipped about a dozen Persian kings, which I reckon as gaps totalling 232 years. Muslims, generally agreeing, also invented the kalam cosmology that teaches a finite beginning in historic times.
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For the rest of mankind, all written history testifies the universe and earth are thousands of years old; even the Sumerian King List doesn't exaggerate beyond human lifespans of 43,200 years (Enmenluana), and the legendary Buddhists stop with lifespans of 100,000 years, still within the range of thousands and not billions. 200 creation traditions demonstrate the origin of the universe as designed and humanity as a rapid development, as a universal testimony.
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All written science for 5,000 years [with the exception of a trend begun by Huxley, Darwin, and Wallace about 200 years ago] assumed a similar timeframe of thousands of years and an orderly creation by an external power.
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Therefore the only exception to this testimony is a demonstrable cabal of antitheists that have invented and declared a "war" on theism and commandeered control of a scientific establishment that censors all other opinions and is sustained by leeched tax money (Stein, Expelled). These follow a pattern of other previous occasional pockets of people (not "scientists" like this time but always religionists) who claim vast age for the universe but who never could catch on due to their inconsistency and infighting (e.g. gnosticism).
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This cabal relies on an ever-spinning series of cave shadows that are abandoned when they become useless, but during their lifetimes are upheld as "settled science" (finch beaks, Lamarckianism, Peking Man, steady state, hopeful monsters, panspermia, and nowadays dark matter, dark energy, anthropic principle, math universe hypothesis). They rely on parroting of pictographic narratives rather than on deliberative knowledge, such as the new "tree of life", Haeckel's embryos, Miller's tubes, the "march of progress" apes and men, etc. (Wells, Icons of Evolution).
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One demonstration of the bankruptcy of this position is NASA's admission that neither of two theories, one dating the universe at 9 billion years rounded, and one dating it at 11-18 billion years, can be taken as settled science. If an official repository of old-earth evidence admits that all old-earth theories are suspect because they disagree and the error has not yet been discerned, then there is no proof of old earth.
The tests from Galileo to Michelson relied on physical apparatus catching the light. In 1983 they switched to measurement of cesium radiation and then krypton. So people aren't doing mirror interferometry anymore. If they did, it might help "prove me wrong".
It's not my job to know Mrs. Noah's name (it was Emzara).
I didn't erase them. BBT shows them inapplicable in the Planck epoch, which as I said Hartle and Hawking fit another whole universe into. Because Christians believe in transfiguration, that's another inapplicability range, that will also prevail in the future. So it seems fitting for it to prevail in the Garden.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:E.coli-colony-growth.gif&oldid=671921067
Technically, one (full ELE), because you can't have more than one, and because the second law over billions of years would force one sooner or later, because it would extinguish rather than create life, unless you invoke WAP. Oh, you did. Well then, thanks, you just proved that something guides destiny beyond what scientists can explain and reifies this universe rather than any other in the MUH. The fact that all life hasn't been extinguished means more than evolutionary factors are at work, which means evolution as a mechanism is unnecessary and so are the billions.
By saying the Oxygen Holocaust corresponds with Day 3 I point out it doesn't look to me like an ELE but like a special creation of plant life in which animal life isn't considered.
False comparison, the living come from others in their species, but with no macroevolution you don't get the narrative that this species comes from a thousand others.
The fact that you propose with some seriousness the extinction of about 7 billion humans as some kind of necessity is clearly shill territory and I have no idea why you went there except your nihil narrative.
When you asked what limit I wanted you to source, I referred you to your limit of seven billion needing to be lost. I don't see any other question this refers to.
Malthus was an idiot. Greater population means greater labor resources, and fuel resources are nowhere near exhaustion.
Then stop implying loss of seven billion is inevitable.
That's what Revelation assures, yes.
Good falsifiability test! That one is asymptotic, but granularity suggests that even with quantum effects you could calculate out an eventual max date (just like scientists have already calculated a heat death date and not gotten smitten for it). I'll get a tab open to work on it in spare time. Anyway I think that would be the end of the millennium and not the beginning, but it would still be good eschatology either way.
I had thought of the application of Tipler Omega Point theory to VSL, but didn't apply the particular test you suggest, no. So I complimented you on it.
Which is why it's odd for the billions-trusters that life continues.
No, we have no photo of a supernova actively triggering a molecular cloud, we've seen snapshots of various stars in a molecular cloud and made a Just So story ("model") from it.
I forgot, they assumed our bete noire, dark matter halos, so that their spirals would hold up; without it spirals don't last. "The presence of dark matter (DM) in the halo is inferred from its gravitational effect on a spiral galaxy's rotation curve. Without large amounts of mass throughout the (roughly spherical) halo, the rotational velocity of the galaxy would decrease at large distances from the galactic center .... However, observations [show] rotational velocities do not decrease with distance from the galactic center."
Dated canard; Adam wasn't told he or the universe looked old, he was told exactly how old it was. Nowadays people deceive themselves.
Not for long without dark matter halos. They're young.
"Despite various proposed models aimed at elucidating the mechanisms behind the formation of spiral arms in galaxies, none of these models have garnered conclusive confirmation. As a result, there is presently no reliable method for describing the evolution of spiral patterns in galaxies."
I accept your story as a story of heavy metal expulsion. I also point out its irrelevance.
Wow!
It's not implicit that VSL would entail changing "material composition of the Universe" whatever you mean by that.
I excepted the LRDs, which nobody understands yet, and pointed out that the existence of spirals at high redshifts boggles astrophysicists because they are so well-developed so "early". Well, if spirals are rapidly coalesced by accretion then they keep a simple structure from their origin and the wonder is that they haven't lost that structure in the present day.
By different rocks I was referring to geologic layers. Apparently you were referring to different rocks in craters instead. I agree with eroded craters, but not with there being any evidence that erosion proves billions, as you haven't brought any.
If you mean they're in the range of tens of thousands, irrelevant.
Haven't heard that, and Graph would be interested, but it would still be in the thousands range.
I defined my timeframe five different ways, from ~5,800 to ~100,000. In the title I summarized this as thousands. I'm not here to defend my calculation, I simply show it for honesty and immediately admit others. You act like agreeing with thousands proves thousands wrong.
Yes, polystrate fossils demonstrate that hundreds of meters can be deposited within a year.
I don't believe so, but many YECs who go for the 100,000 range keep the special Creation and still put Adam on Day 6. What we don't have is a giant physical death epoch before Adam, which you proposed without defense.
If you stretch Gen. 1-11 you can get to 11,000, but I'm not arguing that intramural quibble.
Uniformitarian fallacy again. Next research note: find other standard-model physical observations that change with time. Falsifiable, they ought to exist.
Right now it's defined that way by circular reference to radioactivity. This definition changes the interpretation of many kinds of data.
I showed you the models. Maybe you wanted to get specific with your hand-waving.
Circular, you haven't established why nobody's corrected what the error range should have been and what faulty assumption led to your charge the math was wrong.
We did not correct the older measurements or demonstrate why they gave answers outside our defined rate now; we just threw them out without wondering why. Suppression of evidence, that's a conspiracy!
Not true, Asimov wrote an article on why the closeness relates to other coincidences of resonance with the decimal system.
Now you know why.
I said I'd love to draw attention to it. Funny how you don't rake the heat-death calculators over this way.
1-3 days before. Do you want to come out of the day-age closet maybe?
I don't think they're the same, they're both part of the curse, which is why the Hebrew says "die and die" (idiomatically, "surely die").
You still forget satan. But this doesn't follow. I don't say they're the same, I say they both began at a point. I don't see your mechanism for concluding physical interactions couldn't happen without physical death.
Okay, so you didn't forget satan, but your long digression implies you think him irrelevant to initiating either physical or spiritual curse.
I didn't think I'd need to lead with c having a higher value and a breakdown process being initiated just to get others to explain their belief in billions. I'm glad I could apprise you though.
No, the transference of abundant energy into heat doesn't mean life forms must die without a trigger.
In your view of pre-Fall world, death exists and is information loss. In my view, there is minimal information loss that does not necessitate death.
Except I do claim they've changed. So I'm free to assemble the snapshots differently. Since they have no answer for the stumpers about why clocks haven't run out like spiral arm degradation et al., they are forced to narrative assemblies that don't work.
Yeah, the formation of earth was a crisis, and the flood was a crisis, and both are recorded by plenty of evidence.
Uniformitarian fallacy. When I've seen discussion of this phenomenon, there are several explanations, including leaching of the isotope.
I did read it. The age is determined by radio dating, not erosion.
When you say "if not [dated in billions], they would have eroded by now", the literal implication is that younger craters eroded but craters dated in billions didn't. I assumed you meant something else. If you're saying a crater didn't erode, that indicates it's young. If you're saying it did, I asked how old you could prove it to be by that process. I gave a date in the myriads.
The Bible should be accepted, not by appeal to authority, but by recognition of it containing the best explanation when one has grown past relying on tutors. Now the Bible says nothing from which you could infer physical death before Adam, so I ask where you get it from.
Checkmate. You don't intend to prove OP title wrong, you're just having fun sharpening your theories without being pinned down. Having finished the OP game, I'm happy to go on playing another.
Nothing you say is even remotely close to reality.
So you can’t answer. Then don’t fucking say.
Guess we better throw out all classical mechanics, then.
Thanks for showing we don’t actually see it.
Amazing how you can just tack on things no one said to your narrative and claim victory.
So definitely throw out classical mechanics, right?
Direct comparison.
Microevolution can cause speciation.
Enjoy being raped and murdered by the demons you worship as they flood over the Earth, then. You can’t actually reply to anything anyone says, so I don’t really care if you live or die anymore.
Yes.
Any evidence of that?
Nah, it is. More, even, because the collapse won’t quite happen (at current behavioral rates) until there are a few billion more useless eaters.
“The conditions for life to exist continued to exist so it’s odd that life continued to exist” is not even remotely an argument.
We have several.
My question is why you’re believing this, given the custom laws of physics you’ve applied to your one-shot setting, and therefore why it’s impossible for the velocities to stay the same.
Literally your precise claim, right now, today.
So stop doing that.
Tens of millions of years, yeah.
Literally the same shit as how stellar systems form, which we’ve seen happen both in reality and in computer models…
The speed of light dictates the physical behaviors of all matter at the subatomic level. You can’t fucking change it without changing all physical laws.
Observationally. Predate. All. Of. Human. History. Read or don’t reply.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Blatantly lying about all known laws of existence proves it wrong.
Plenty of evidence, yeah.
Posted about six defenses.
“WOW EVERY SINGLE TIME I RUN THIS EXPERIMENT I GET THE SAME RESULT! I GUESS EVERY SINGLE RESULT WAS WRONG BECAUSE THINGS ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE I SAY THEY ARE!” ~ the clinically insane
No, it defines itself that way. That’s what it means to live in a Universe that wasn’t created by Allah.
Nah, it’s defined by its measurable physical properties.
Is this a sad attempt at a joke about how old sci-fi used to write about “2c” spaceship drives, wherein ‘c’ could be cited as a unit in and of itself? Because no, otherwise.
And yet we know that atoms collapse below certain energy densities.
They have. They did. We know it now.
There were no such assumptions. The measurements are more precise now. They were wrong before.
We did. Your own chart shows it. You were wrong.
They made shit measurements with shit equipment. Claim the Earth is flat, then. Do it, you fucking faggot. Claim the Eratosthenes experiment relies on “circular” measurements.
Sure thing; we just so happened to arbitrarily pick those numbers for the metric system.
Lol
No, now I know your “justification” for why you didn’t.
I don’t need to. It’s a matter of the laws of physics itself. We can measure the energy density of any given region of space. If it falls below a given level, stellar formation can’t continue. If it falls even lower, no chemical interactions can occur. If it falls even further, no interaction on any scale can continue. If the Universe is expanding infinitely, its finite contents will eventually reach this final energy state, wherein nothing can ever physically happen again. This is all stuff that can be measured right now.
Not according to all physical evidence, Allah worshipper.
It’s not relevant to the statement and you refuse to reply to the statement.
A separate point.
Because you’ve chosen not to read my comment.
The laws of physics exist. They’re measurable. You are objectively wrong about them not being measurable. Their measurements result in a singular conclusion about at least some of their behaviors. You reject this conclusion because your desert god told someone to rape children and also that causality doesn’t exist. That’s really all there is to it. That’s the explanation for the billions.
The trigger is the transference of energy. Plants don’t have souls. Animals don’t have souls. Sin death is not physical death.
Nope.
Without evidence.
Absolutely no argument. Thanks for admitting that the observed and measured difference in the remaining amount of the isotope is irrefutable and disproves your claims.
Where.
Didn’t read it, then. Got it.
So the ones that are knowably, measurably, self-evidently, visibly older than the others; they’re all the same age because you say so.
The physical reality that God created.
I already have.
The jew cries out in pain as it strikes you.
The nature of objective reality isn’t a game, jew.
Now that we agree on OP that it was thousands and not billions, a new game, sure.
See that proves it's a new game. Galilee.
"Speed" not found. But I'll add the context you could have inferred, "people aren't doing mirror interferometry anymore for lightspeed measurement."
I linked exponential growth so you could see it. Maybe you're blind.
Technically the quantum revolution threw out classical mechanics.
I said the millions of current species don't entail the evolutionist billions of species, and you said this was like the 8 billion humans disproving the 100 billion prior humans. It's false because the humans arise by exponential growth but the species do not and are wholly invented (without fossil evidence) to keep the known species into the billion-year narrative.
Not new DNA barcodes, and not the millions of species today.
Denied in Jesus's name, doomer.
The earth has 37 billion acres.
Which is why WAP is idiotic. In closed systems conditions for life don't continue to exist on the scale we observe, therefore this is an open system with some unknown input.
You didn't link any, and being snapshots they cannot confirm the triggering narrative because they can fit any other narrative.
Lightspeed doesn't affect gravitation, so spiral galaxies do show either youth, or imaginary betenoire matter.
I didn't claim or imply God made the universe look old, I said God told us how old the universe was in Genesis 1 when he made it.
Exactly, not billions, which is why they invented the betenoire.
No, stellar systems don't have neat spiral patterns caused by rotation of many objects at many distances.
The quantum behavior is tied to other factors that vary with lightspeed such as fine structure. So VSL is canceled out in these effects. Pick an effect that you think is dictated, we can look it up, it always works out when I've tried.
It's irrelevant whether the craters predated the flood because they don't prove billions. I'm not arguing about millions or less versus thousands (though I have my beliefs), and you're not either because you're not actually producing prehistoric erosion evidence.
No, the fossil record is not consistent with the number of specimens 5 billion years would produce. You said yourself 100 billion humans total. Now plug in any modest population growth numbers and cataclysm cycles and let me know if you get something legitimate at the millions level. It points to the thousands.
I don't recall any of them indicated millions of years of death. If you mean (5)-(10) lightspeed, observation, radiation, dendrochronology, erosion, theology, none of those had the evidence.
The uniformitarian assumes conditions must be the same because he says so. C measurements show a statistically significant variance even accounting for all error, and this is assumed away. The best fit is rejected in favor of an inference to a worse explanation.
The SI defines the meter and second that are used for measurement. Since they are defined by radiation, they don't vary since the 70s even if lightspeed varies.
No, whether c is dependent on dynamic or radiation measurement does change the meaning of its other uses.
And?
If people had corrected the error range in the old measurements, the ranges would hit the flatline in the linked graphic. They don't.
All known error has been included in the ranges and they still don't hit the line.
And, by your logic, since you know this date, you're a heretic for knowing when Jesus will return by.
Satan is relevant to the fall because he fell before the fall.
I replied that it doesn't follow that "If physical death and sin death are the same (Bible says otherwise), no physical interactions took place between any matter before the first bite of the fruit"; because it's a strawman, and it's an unstated premise in that "I don't see your mechanism for concluding physical interactions couldn't happen without physical death."
The mechanism isn't there. A physical universe without death works just fine, even entropically if it will someday be translated into a new heaven-earth.
Never said that, I said we do measure them. In fact the same variations are present in the measurement of "constants" tied to c.
Anywhere. You say "Same isotopes. Same half-lives. Different amounts of the isotope left." Different amounts can happen if the unknown initial amount was different, if one sample lost or gained material by leaching outside the sample, or if catastrophe or environment changed the nature of the decay. Uniformitarians assume without knowledge that none of this ever happened, and voila billions.
I read it was eroded, and its age was determined by radiation. "The age finding was based on analysis of ancient crystals of the minerals zircon and monazite found in the crater. Scientists used uranium–lead dating to analyze the samples and to determine the age of the impact crater." Maybe you didn't read it for the same reason you can't see a GIF of exponential growth. The erosion was not used to date the crater, and could not have been on erosion assumptions.
I asked for such erosion evidence, haven't seen it, it's as if you're telling a story. What was the name of your rock?
Was very good. By one man death entered the world. Death will be destroyed. "Nature red in tooth and claw" is Darwin's dooming, oh wait you like dooming, I get it.
I know how much fun you have not offering proof, which is why I indulge the game. If you were actually trying to prove something it'd be different. You'd be saying here's a good model of how human populations varied a million years without overpopulating or dying, here's a good example of a crater age measured by erosion, here's a good model of how many species existed for however many years and how species originated, here's a good published theology on physical death before Adam, but you don't. So you're not here to prove anything, you're here to game. Anytime.
We’re done. You’ve admitted your OP is a lie. You get no further responses on this topic.
Thank you for playing. You're losing the new games too.