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posted 248 days ago by NumbaZero 248 days ago by NumbaZero +6 / -2
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– Donkeybutt75 2 points 247 days ago +2 / -0

It depends on the industry. And remember, many of these companies are already American companies that manufacture in China, Mexico, etc. to cut costs.

When it becomes economically advantageous to move manufacturing back to the United States, industries like Automotive can do that fairly quickly (often a year or two), and some industries even faster. Also, there are plenty of industries where there is local competition that will immediately benefit (e.g. home fitness equipment).

If these tariffs are sincere, there will probably be deals where tariffs get dropped for products that make commitments to move manufacturing back to the US, such that those companies are not hurt during the time they are transitioning.

That's not to say I believe these tariffs are sincere. I generally don't trust any of the big stuff that happens, and I don't trust any of these. I do, however, believe that tariffs are a good thing if you believe in the idea of sovereign nations.

Interesting thought that this may be a way to implement VAT.

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– CrazyRussian 1 point 247 days ago +1 / -0

Tariffs could help domestic industry, but in any case they will rise the prices.

If a customer have to pay X% more for some imported thing, then there is no any reason for local manufacturer to set the price for the similar thing made locally X% lower. This X% will just go to the pocket of the owner.

We have customs taxes for many imported things here for a long time, they always make things more expensive for people. All things, imported and manufactured locally. Of course, this sometimes could help local industry, but that's not for sure.

Shortly, tariffs is kind of a way to indirectly subsidize local industry at the expense of local population. As you might know, subsidizing does not work always and even could make things worse.

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– Donkeybutt75 2 points 247 days ago +2 / -0

Long term, though, it's not at the expense of the local population, but to their benefit (assuming the tariffs only apply where there is a practical possibility for local options).

Compare to before the 60s and 70s. CEO pay compared to average worker pay was ridiculously closer. Things costed more but people made more. People did not have so many random electronics, but the thing they had were well built and lasted (and were repairable).

Then, manufacturing started to outsource to the third world to cut costs. Some of that went on to the consumer, but much of it went directly to the top. And more importantly, a once strong middle class started to bifurcate into a few extremely wealthy and the rest barely able to scrape by even with two incomes (and all of the follow-ons from that like birth rate decline and massive immigration).

In the end it's all subjective, but I prefer a strong middle class with real power and liberty.

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– CrazyRussian 1 point 246 days ago +1 / -0

Long term, though, it's not at the expense of the local population, but to their benefit

If they worked as intended, of course. However there should be a lot of other conditions for subsidizing of whatever kind to be successfull. F.e. average enterpreneur will not rise the quality and reliability of goods he produce, if he could just sell them for higher price thanks to tariffs.

Here we comes to question of ethics in profit-driven capitalism, which is unfortunately have bad answers.

The reason state need tariffs to support domestic business is that local businessmans decided that they will get more profit moving manufacturing out of country to the cheaper regions. With some ethics and care about local people from the businessman, there would have no such situation in the beginning. And now the same businessmans who destroyed local manufacturing get subsidies from the state. Guess how that will go.

State need not only subsidies/preferences for local manufacturing, but also strict control over manufacturers on how they use that situation - just happily fill their pockets doing so called "screwdriver assembly" of "made in USA" things or really invest into means of manufacturing and skilled workforce for whole production cycle.

In the end it's all subjective, but I prefer a strong middle class with real power and liberty.

Not very subjective, really. Strong middle class means reliable state and well-being of whole population.

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– Donkeybutt75 1 point 246 days ago +1 / -0

The reason state need tariffs to support domestic business is that local businessmans decided that they will get more profit moving manufacturing out of country to the cheaper regions. With some ethics and care about local people from the businessman, there would have no such situation in the beginning. And now the same businessmans who destroyed local manufacturing get subsidies from the state. Guess how that will go.

If you make it too expensive to outsource manufacturing, then those companies need to compete with other local companies. In even a moderately efficient market, if you are price-gouging then there will be other competition that comes in at a lower price. Similarly, if you need to compete with other local companies for labor then you need to pay better.

This assumes efficient markets, though. However, every system will always tend towards consolidation and monopoly, it is ingrained in human nature. To counter this you would need robust breakup of monopolies. This also will eventually be gamed or corrupted.

Then we're back to natural cycles of consolidation, revolt, decentralization, repeat.

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