Weight, an intrinsic and inexorable property of all matter. The direction for that push force is down when the weight is greater than that of the displaced media, and up when it is lesser.
It's really the normal/standard take, and has been for around 2000 years.
You can find physicists from that era who share this view, but it may be easier if you go back further.
Again, I have gone back further. I have not found one that says that push is the only force. I assure you I have given a fair shake and looked at many different classical and modern physicists and have not found any that support this.
There is no better source for my perspective than me
We're not just talking about your perspective though. You claim that other scientists share your perspective, I'm unable to find one.
The answer is, you are pushing your hand, which in turn pushes on the superglue, which pushes on the eraser.
But I'm not pushing. I'm pulling. I'm bringing it towards me.
Hello! just circling back here. Would love to show you a demonstrative example of why push and pull are fundamentally different, such as when you look at the effects that they have on an object.
When an object is pushed, it will experience a sensation of compression, where the molecules of the object are pushed closer together.
When an object is pulled, it will experience a sensation of tension, where the molecules would be pulled further apart.
Well your answer wasn’t totally clear relative to what I was asking due to my poor wording of the original ask, so I am just making sure we are on the same page.
Are you aware that tension and compression have different relative effects on an object, yes or no?
Perhaps not in such a gross way. It is more proper to say that forces can only push, and that pull has no mechanism in classical deterministic physics.
I have not found one person, aside from you, that has this stance.
why don't you discuss my perspective with me instead?
Because you said others share your perspective, and I would like to read about it, because you aren't as forthcoming with information.
but since you want to quit looking
I don't want to quit looking. I have done some digging each time we comment, and I have yet to find anyone.
In reality there is no difference, save for direction, when the object is pushed in one direction, or pushed in another
The primary difference is the direction from which the force is applied, that distinguishes push and pull.
Yes, but we are only talking about one simple object here
Sorry, my wording of the question may have confused you. I’ll ask another way
Before I begin with my example of how direction bears a significant difference in terms of force, are you aware of tension and compression, and the respective effects they have on an object?
As if when you read it in some book written by a hallowed name you would suddenly understand and/or agree!
It's not that I need a hallowed name, but I need more than just you telling me this, especially since what you're telling me doesn't make sense when applied in real life scenarios.
Remove the bottle from the example. Just consider the pencil.
I'm referring to the scenario when you superglue your finger to the bottle, there is no pencil in this example.
In the example when you superglue your finger to the bottle, there is no pushing taking place.
Then you haven't looked hard enough, and/or far enough back.
We've established I have looked far enough back though, before the 50's/60's was your suggested timeline and I've gone through there, so that's not the issue.
As if you reading about any historical physicist espousing this view (of which there are a great many) would do any good at all.
It would at least be another source where I could read more of the actual principle though, since you aren't providing much in terms of concrete information.
Just a pencil, just a finger. One object - don't complicate it with others, it's just confusing you.
Okay great, we'll keep it simple. Let's say I superglue my finger to the eraser of a pencil, and bring it towards me. What object is being pushed in this scenario?
But you're also claiming that other scientists and physicists agree with what you're saying, so that's what I'm looking to verify. None that I have found, both modern and classical, seem to agree with what you're sharing.
Just consider the pencil (or the finger, if you insist) - nothing else. And try to answer the question i asked about it.
Again, there is no pencil in this scenario, only the finger superglued to the bottle on the side closest to me. There is no push in this scenario.
Part of your difficulty understanding is coming from overcomplication
I'm attempting to keep it as simple as possible by having an example with the finger and the bottle only.
Can you answer the question of how my finger is pushing the bottle towards me, without adding any other element (such as a pencil) to the scenario?
As i am struggling to convey to you - everything is a billiard ball (including forces). Billiard balls can't pull, they can only push.
Understandable if you are struggling!
So, it would be very helpful if you were to share a piece of literature that will share this in detail. Where can I read more about this? I would love to gain a greater understanding of this topic but the works I've been finding share alternate ideas.
I don't seek your concession, only understanding.
Great! Could you please share a specific resource that can help me understand better?
To understand what i am saying? It's best to learn about my perspective "from the horses mouth" don't you think?
If what you're saying applies to the properties of physical matter, yes. What it is does not change depending on our perspectives.
Not without pushing the cup towards you, no!
Yes, I absolutely can. I have a plastic water bottle on my desk right now. From above, I can grip the bottle at positions 4 and 6 o'clock, and bring the bottle towards me.
ie, the direction from which the force is generated and how it acts, hence what makes push and pull opposites.
The fact that you are avoiding the example with the pencil shows that you understand
The example with the pencil is a different scenario with different forces applied in different directions.
So if you cut your finger off, would it suddenly NOT be the handle that the pencil is in the example you're avoiding?
I'm not understanding your question. In the pencil example, the pencil is gripped with the full hand (pinky closest, thumb further). Why would cutting a finger off affect anything?
The pencil is the handle of the cup either way.
n my view, and that of classical/deterministic physics - there is no pulling
Every information on classical/traditional physics I'm finding describes distinct, different forces. Where/who is discussing push as the only force in the universe?
But you should not require any supporting documentation to understand what i am saying to you.
Well, I do require supporting documentation, because what you're saying doesn't make sense in practice.
For example, in the cup example, I can pull a cup towards me without wrapping my hand around the cup (the element of the scenario you described as contributing to "push"). I don't see where the billiard ball view can support how that works.
i don't think it will help with this conversation
It would certainly help your struggle in conveying how this process works!
The point is that nothing has changed (except the direction)
That's exactly the point. We're talking about two opposite forces acting in different directions, push vs pull.
The pushing rope/pencil example doesn't apply to when the fingertip is stuck to the side of the glass closest to you, because that's precisely the difference between push and pull.
In the glued finger example, your finger is the handle
The finger is not the handle. It's a part of the body that is exerting the pulling force.
Have you genuinely never heard of the concept of pulling?
The topic at hand requires both parties to have a proper understanding of basic physics, including the fact that there are more forces that exist than just pushing. You don't have that, so how can we proceed on the topic at hand?
Can an object be pulled by another object if the leading object itself is not pushed?
Yes. Magnetic force is a great example of this.
(think mechanically for now)
If you want to talk strictly mechanics, as in mechanisms, then a scenario such as a winch pulling in a load would be the load being pulled via a rotational method, no pushing of the leading object.
A very simple version through mechanics (of movement) though can just be you picking up your cup of coffee and bringing it to your lips. You're pulling it inward.
Not in classical (deterministic, aka "billiard ball") physics, no. How would a billiard ball pull?
You're using a specific example of a billiard ball scenario. However, physics is more than just one example. There are other forces besides pushing, and you need to have an understanding of that for our conversation to continue on a good path forward. Without a foundational understanding of force, and different properties it can have, we cannot build on it.
Please answer this question:
Is an object being pulled by another experiencing a pushing force?
Hi! Just reposting the comment with some emphasis on where I'm hoping you can respond, if you weren't sure on where this goes:
Our previous discussion cannot continue because you lack basic understanding of forces that exist in the universe.
I asked you nicely to start by thinking mechanically.
Yes, and I gave you mechanical answers as well. I think it's not really serving to limit ourselves, since we're talking about the nature of force in general.
So no push is used to drive the winch?
In some cases, yes that is correct!
All is push.
So how would you consider me pulling a cup towards me as push?
If you can show me any documentation on classical physics that describes pushing being the only force that exists, I'll concede. I've already sent a number of links that say otherwise:
Added: It's important to the main discussion at hand, that in order for us to continue we must understand that more forces exist in the world that are not defined by pushing. Is there a specific aspect of this concept that you disagree with?
I should correct you: this is not what my stance is. Please read carefully. There are plenty of different forces that do not push.
Pushing force, however, must always come from behind. That is the very definition of pushing. If we want to have a clear discussion, we should understand that words have meaning, and use them carefully.
You push the handle towards you by moving your hand
You're not pushing. You're pulling. How does a billiard ball scenario fit into this description?
Now turn the bottle so the pencil is facing away from you
Then is an entirely different scenario with different directional forces. We're talking about the finger being stuck to the part of the bottle closest to you and the bottle moving towards you.
I'm interested in discussing that which we can both observe, not merely perspective.
In that case you are "pushing a rope" if you get my meaning
I do not.
I understand what pushing a rope is, but I do not understand how it applies to super gluing my finger to a cup and pulling it closer to me. Could you please explain more?
as it is my view (and that of classical physics) that there is no other type of force.
I'm sorry, what? There are many other types of force besides pushing, as taught by classical physics. Where are you getting this information from?
did you understand my previous comment and/or have any response to it?
I did! The only response that I have is that it's still not clear where the pushing force comes from. It must come from behind an object (relative to the direction of motion) based on the very definition of pushing.
By your description, it seems to come from within the object.
I am of the view that all forces are "pushing" forces
If this is the case, that's a major issue, because there are many forces that are not pushing forces. I'm not sure how we can progress successfully on this topic if you have such a massive misunderstanding of the very concept of force.
Is an object being pulled by another experiencing a pushing force?
If you like, you may go all "zeno's paradox" on it and imagine the matter itself as infinitely divisible - if it helps you to understand/conceptualize.
It doesn't, because again there stands that there is matter at the top of the pile.
It does this at rest, sitting on a scale where we measure that weight.
And we then take the time to understand where that force comes from.
Specifically? Because in any document I can find on force there are many examples listed that are not pushing forces, including frictional force, tension, and spring, not to mention the obvious pulling force
So previously when you said it was "pushing" downward, was that just because you misunderstood that all force is pushing force? Or do you still consider it to be a pushing force?
then you may imagine the matter at the top of the object "pushing" the matter beneath it
Eventually there is matter on top. What is pushing that? Its own weight pushing from within?
in an object at rest - there is no direction of motion
We are not talking about an object at rest, we are talking about matter being "pushed" in a direction (downward)
That’s an interesting take. Where is the push force coming from?
Weight, an intrinsic and inexorable property of all matter. The direction for that push force is down when the weight is greater than that of the displaced media, and up when it is lesser.
It's really the normal/standard take, and has been for around 2000 years.
Well, a pushing force comes from behind, does it not?
Not necessarily. Why do you think pushing always comes from behind?
Right but what is causing that weight to push townward?
The fact that the weight is greater than the weight it displaces. Otherwise it doesn't!
Read again my previous comment. I am not giving up. I have been searching. I have not found one.
Read again my previous comment. It is not arbitrary. It is what defines the difference.
This is demonstrably false.
Hello! Just checking to see if you got my last comment?
Again, I have gone back further. I have not found one that says that push is the only force. I assure you I have given a fair shake and looked at many different classical and modern physicists and have not found any that support this.
We're not just talking about your perspective though. You claim that other scientists share your perspective, I'm unable to find one.
But I'm not pushing. I'm pulling. I'm bringing it towards me.
Have you never used the word "pull" in your life?
Hello! just circling back here. Would love to show you a demonstrative example of why push and pull are fundamentally different, such as when you look at the effects that they have on an object.
When an object is pushed, it will experience a sensation of compression, where the molecules of the object are pushed closer together.
When an object is pulled, it will experience a sensation of tension, where the molecules would be pulled further apart.
Does this make sense?
Well your answer wasn’t totally clear relative to what I was asking due to my poor wording of the original ask, so I am just making sure we are on the same page.
Are you aware that tension and compression have different relative effects on an object, yes or no?
I still haven't found any. It gets to be more and more apparent that you are incorrect in this.
Yes, it is a major distinction.
Certainly!
Before I begin, are you familiar with compression and tension forces, and how they affect objects?
I have not found one person, aside from you, that has this stance.
Because you said others share your perspective, and I would like to read about it, because you aren't as forthcoming with information.
I don't want to quit looking. I have done some digging each time we comment, and I have yet to find anyone.
The primary difference is the direction from which the force is applied, that distinguishes push and pull.
Sorry, my wording of the question may have confused you. I’ll ask another way
Before I begin with my example of how direction bears a significant difference in terms of force, are you aware of tension and compression, and the respective effects they have on an object?
It's not that I need a hallowed name, but I need more than just you telling me this, especially since what you're telling me doesn't make sense when applied in real life scenarios.
I'm referring to the scenario when you superglue your finger to the bottle, there is no pencil in this example.
In the example when you superglue your finger to the bottle, there is no pushing taking place.
Considering I've gone well before the 50's-60's, I am going back far enough.
I haven't found one that holds the view you've shared with me.
I know billiard balls can't pull. Other things CAN pull, such as if I superglue my finger to a cup and pull it towards me.
I've yet to see a scientist that supports what you're telling me. Everything I've found has talked in detail about other forces besides pushing.
Except, for instance, when you superglue your finger to a cup, and pull it towards you. There is no push in this scenario.
We've established I have looked far enough back though, before the 50's/60's was your suggested timeline and I've gone through there, so that's not the issue.
It would at least be another source where I could read more of the actual principle though, since you aren't providing much in terms of concrete information.
Okay great, we'll keep it simple. Let's say I superglue my finger to the eraser of a pencil, and bring it towards me. What object is being pushed in this scenario?
But you're also claiming that other scientists and physicists agree with what you're saying, so that's what I'm looking to verify. None that I have found, both modern and classical, seem to agree with what you're sharing.
Again, there is no pencil in this scenario, only the finger superglued to the bottle on the side closest to me. There is no push in this scenario.
I'm attempting to keep it as simple as possible by having an example with the finger and the bottle only.
Can you answer the question of how my finger is pushing the bottle towards me, without adding any other element (such as a pencil) to the scenario?
Understandable if you are struggling!
So, it would be very helpful if you were to share a piece of literature that will share this in detail. Where can I read more about this? I would love to gain a greater understanding of this topic but the works I've been finding share alternate ideas.
Great! Could you please share a specific resource that can help me understand better?
It does matter. You're suggesting that objects are being pushed down due to their weight, which means that they'd be being pushed from above.
I'm not speaking on semantics here, but on the nature of force itself.
The question then is, what is it that's pushing down on an object from above?
If what you're saying applies to the properties of physical matter, yes. What it is does not change depending on our perspectives.
Yes, I absolutely can. I have a plastic water bottle on my desk right now. From above, I can grip the bottle at positions 4 and 6 o'clock, and bring the bottle towards me.
There is no handle.
ie, the direction from which the force is generated and how it acts, hence what makes push and pull opposites.
The example with the pencil is a different scenario with different forces applied in different directions.
I'm not understanding your question. In the pencil example, the pencil is gripped with the full hand (pinky closest, thumb further). Why would cutting a finger off affect anything?
The pencil is the handle of the cup either way.
Every information on classical/traditional physics I'm finding describes distinct, different forces. Where/who is discussing push as the only force in the universe?
Well, I do require supporting documentation, because what you're saying doesn't make sense in practice.
For example, in the cup example, I can pull a cup towards me without wrapping my hand around the cup (the element of the scenario you described as contributing to "push"). I don't see where the billiard ball view can support how that works.
It would certainly help your struggle in conveying how this process works!
That's exactly the point. We're talking about two opposite forces acting in different directions, push vs pull.
The pushing rope/pencil example doesn't apply to when the fingertip is stuck to the side of the glass closest to you, because that's precisely the difference between push and pull.
The finger is not the handle. It's a part of the body that is exerting the pulling force.
Have you genuinely never heard of the concept of pulling?
The topic at hand requires both parties to have a proper understanding of basic physics, including the fact that there are more forces that exist than just pushing. You don't have that, so how can we proceed on the topic at hand?
Yes. Magnetic force is a great example of this.
If you want to talk strictly mechanics, as in mechanisms, then a scenario such as a winch pulling in a load would be the load being pulled via a rotational method, no pushing of the leading object.
A very simple version through mechanics (of movement) though can just be you picking up your cup of coffee and bringing it to your lips. You're pulling it inward.
If I’m not being pushed from behind, then there is no pushing force.
How is weight a pushing force? Is something pushing me down from above?
Is there any instance where pushing doesn’t come from behind?
You're using a specific example of a billiard ball scenario. However, physics is more than just one example. There are other forces besides pushing, and you need to have an understanding of that for our conversation to continue on a good path forward. Without a foundational understanding of force, and different properties it can have, we cannot build on it.
Please answer this question:
Is an object being pulled by another experiencing a pushing force?
Hi! Just reposting the comment with some emphasis on where I'm hoping you can respond, if you weren't sure on where this goes:
Our previous discussion cannot continue because you lack basic understanding of forces that exist in the universe.
Yes, and I gave you mechanical answers as well. I think it's not really serving to limit ourselves, since we're talking about the nature of force in general.
In some cases, yes that is correct!
So how would you consider me pulling a cup towards me as push?
If you can show me any documentation on classical physics that describes pushing being the only force that exists, I'll concede. I've already sent a number of links that say otherwise:
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/Types-of-Forces
https://www.britannica.com/science/force-physics
https://byjus.com/physics/force/#types-of-force
Added: It's important to the main discussion at hand, that in order for us to continue we must understand that more forces exist in the world that are not defined by pushing. Is there a specific aspect of this concept that you disagree with?
I should correct you: this is not what my stance is. Please read carefully. There are plenty of different forces that do not push.
Pushing force, however, must always come from behind. That is the very definition of pushing. If we want to have a clear discussion, we should understand that words have meaning, and use them carefully.
You're not pushing. You're pulling. How does a billiard ball scenario fit into this description?
Then is an entirely different scenario with different directional forces. We're talking about the finger being stuck to the part of the bottle closest to you and the bottle moving towards you.
Not relative to the direction one is facing, but relative to the direction of the force, all pushing force is from behind. Do you understand?
You seem to have misunderstood my question
I have not seen such instance. When does this happen?
I'm interested in discussing that which we can both observe, not merely perspective.
I do not.
I understand what pushing a rope is, but I do not understand how it applies to super gluing my finger to a cup and pulling it closer to me. Could you please explain more?
I'm sorry, what? There are many other types of force besides pushing, as taught by classical physics. Where are you getting this information from?
I did! The only response that I have is that it's still not clear where the pushing force comes from. It must come from behind an object (relative to the direction of motion) based on the very definition of pushing.
By your description, it seems to come from within the object.
If this is the case, that's a major issue, because there are many forces that are not pushing forces. I'm not sure how we can progress successfully on this topic if you have such a massive misunderstanding of the very concept of force.
Is an object being pulled by another experiencing a pushing force?
It doesn't, because again there stands that there is matter at the top of the pile.
And we then take the time to understand where that force comes from.
Specifically? Because in any document I can find on force there are many examples listed that are not pushing forces, including frictional force, tension, and spring, not to mention the obvious pulling force
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/Types-of-Forces
So previously when you said it was "pushing" downward, was that just because you misunderstood that all force is pushing force? Or do you still consider it to be a pushing force?
Eventually there is matter on top. What is pushing that? Its own weight pushing from within?
We are not talking about an object at rest, we are talking about matter being "pushed" in a direction (downward)