observe my dear friend, gravity, drawing things toward a center of of mass. small scale experiments cannot
So you’re fine having faith in something you cannot test or directly observe?
Not very “scientific” ... much more of a religious view wouldn’t you say?
That’s true, things that are heavier than the media they displace fall. That’s the law of gravity! In its simplest form, it is the statement that “what goes up, must come down.
But the commenter i was responding to wasn’t talking about gravity, they were talking about gravitation the magical/mysterious/unknown postulated pseudoforce believed to cause that law. The former is, as you say, real. The latter is not.
Things fall merely because they were lifted and with the exact same energy used to lift them. They fall because the air beneath them cannot support their weight. Things do NOT fall because there is a magical “force” pulling them down. That is a stupid, unscientific, and fictional idea, as it was from its original inception.
why does the item fall downwards and not in any other direction?
Because that is the direction of its lowest energy state aka “rest”. Things tend towards rest/equilibrium. It’s also got a lot of matter above it pushing down; it’s the easiest way / path of least resistance for it to fall down.
I could easily argue that it is “blindingly retarded” to expect that it ought to fall in any other direction than the opposite of the one you lifted it. Or that “falling” ever could happen in any other direction than down, just as lifting could ever be in any other direction than “up”. It is arguably equally “blindingly retarded” to assume that air could or should support the weight of a physical object of significantly greater density that you lifted and released.
if they only dont fall because the air cant support them then why do things feel heavy?
You may have misunderstood me. Things do fall because the air can’t support their weight, and because they were lifted and released. Things feel heavy because they are made of matter, and matter has weight. It is an intrinsic property of all matter, and because of the interplay between the weight of the object and the media it displaces it exhibits a force that totals downwards.
did you think about this for longer than it took you to type?
I dare say i have thought about it, discussed it, and researched it far more than you have or ever will!
gravitational pull, while we dont quite understand the specifics of how it works, is a well understood fundemental force of reality, it is a key part of what holds literally everything together.
The greeks believed the same thing about zeus. You are describing belief in your mythology - not science. Gravitational pull does not make sense (it is intractable), is not consistent with reality, and is fundamentally unscientific and fictional. I know what i am saying sounds wild, because it is wild.
I recognize the prominent role it plays in the modern creation mythology (and dogma) of scientism. That changes nothing.
we dont know why that happens, but we know the exact way that it happens,
These are contradictory statements. We don’t know why that happens, which is ALSO the same as not knowing the exact way that it happens. You believe it is the cause of observable and well established phenomena, but that’s only because of rote under the guise of education from childhood.
and not knowing something does not proove that it isnt real.
No, but until something is discovered it is NOT discovered. Gravitation is NOT discovered. It was simply made up and weaseled its way into textbooks. No science was involved. In science, things are not real until they are proven to be. We can measure weight. We can measure the speed things fall. We can measure the minuscule attraction between certain types of matter. We cannot measure “gravitational pull”, which makes it unemperical aka unscientific. Things we cannot measure do not belong in science. Belief does not belong in science.
there is far more proof to gravitational force just existing than there is for whatever completely braindead alternative you have come up with.
So we are taught, and required to faithfully repeat. However in reality, it isn’t true. What we have is belief. In science, proof only comes from rigorous empiricism (scientific law - the “what”) and rigorous experiment (scientific theory - the “why/how”). Gravitational force has neither, and never has. Newton understood that it never could. This fact, and the meaning of it, is lost on most modern students :(
What we can actually test and observe are gravitation’s believed effects.
Gravity [gravitation, not gravity] is somewhere between mysterious and pure fiction - i.e. pseudoscience.
We can observe falling (which is the law/phenomenon of gravity - but NOT gravitation. It is merely believed to cause it...), and we can observe minuscule attraction between some types of matter - but gravitation cannot be measured, observed, understood (3+ centuries and counting :(), or manipulated (required for experiment of any kind). It doesn’t exist outside of equation and is often referred to as a “pseudo-force” (pseudo meaning NOT real) as a result.
Then present a better explanation and validate it with experiments.
I’ve already done that!
In any case, coming up with an alternative is not necessary to criticize, identify, and/or refute existing pseudoscience or incorrect science. For example, gravitation has never been, and cannot be, experimentally verified nor can the belief that it is responsible for weight or the minuscule attraction we measure between some types of matter.
Newton understood this fully, which is why he famously didn’t even feign a hypothesis that could be experimentally verified, let alone go about creating an experiment to test it! He well understood it was folly, “philosophically unsound” - his words [i.e. unscientific], and attributed its mechanism to the christian god. A very, ahem, scientific “theory” indeed!
'Gravity' as a term literally is defined by phenomenological effects. The 'cause' behind these effects (most recently: Higgs Boson) are indeed science fiction and literally everyone admits so (despite what popsci publications would have one believe).
There are a number of these phenomenological terms in science, where the effects are studied but causes not understood, e.g. diffraction, surface tension, etc. all terms of which are defined by their effects. People write huge dissertations on what the causes might be, but nobody really knows.
Falling objects literally demonstrate the PHENOMENA of gravity or gravitation. And yes, gravity has been indeed measured, observed, and understood for many centuries, though the causes are not.
'Gravity' as a term literally is defined by phenomenological effects
That’s right! Gravity is a natural/scientific law [i.e. phenomenon] which is multiple millennia old.
The 'cause' behind these effects
Is fully known and understood, in my view. Since newton added the contrived unscientific fiction of “gravitation” into the mix, it’s been a “mystery” for 3+ centuries. We have made no progress on understanding it whatsoever. I know why. It [gravitation] isn’t real, and it never was.
People write huge dissertations on what the causes might be, but nobody really knows.
Many, if not most, natural laws are this way. They are, and we deal with them. They are the empirical bedrock of science.
Falling objects literally demonstrate the PHENOMENA of gravity or gravitation
Ah, but there’s the rub. They aren’t the same and in science cannot be the same. A natural/scientific law (the phenomenon; gravity) can never be the same as the scientific theory (the experimentally verified cause of the phenomenon; what gravitation is billed as but in no way is) to explain it. That would be circular logic at best, un/anti-scientific, and just plain - to use your parlance - retarded.
And yes, gravity has been indeed measured, observed, and understood for many centuries, though the causes are not.
Yes, gravity has been measured - that’s how scientific laws come to be - measurement. It is thousands of years old.
Gravitation is essentially a pseudoscientific hoax/fraud, and is merely a few centuries old. It’s junk, and wrong. Every physicist worth their salt since newton has loathed him for introducing magic into physics. “Spooky action at a distance” - in newton’s own words, “philosophically unsound” nonsense.
This is not exactly right. It is true that proof, outside of mathematics, is subjective, provisional, and historically doomed to refutation - but the scientific method is ALL about proving to the best of our abilities.
Experiment is how we prove that our scientific understandings for the cause of phenomena are correct. It isn’t truth, but it is the best we’ve got - and the closest thing (in my estimation) to proof that exists.
Sadly the vast majority of people are scientifically illiterate due to poor education, and so do not actually know what an experiment is or how the scientific method works or why. To make matters worse, they learn and use incorrect colloquial definitions for the vernacular (experiment, theory, hypothesis, etc.) so they can’t even have a discussion, let alone practice or study science - even if they wanted to :(
Assumption has no place in science whatsoever outside of hypothesis generation - which exists only for experimental validation/refutation (ideally). Science has no place for belief/assumption (it’s called bias, and is a four letter word).
Are perceptions bias? Also, please don't misunderstand, I agree with science. I am actually looking to pursue a career in mechanical engineering (or pure mathematics, because of proof as you mentioned). I believe that science done properly should be believed, but science, as far as observability, struggles to compete with propaganda, and is oftentimes difficult to differentiate. I agree with you in all that you have stated, I just wish that people would use commonsense more than their eyes and ears.
Generally, yes. Perceptions are subjective, and subjectivity is bias. Science is the attempt to suppress that inherent human quality and study objectively.
Also, please don't misunderstand, I agree with science
Likewise, i also appreciate and value science as a method of learning about the world and gaining new understanding and capacity/ability.
I believe that science done properly should be believed
Science should NEVER be believed. Belief has no place in science whatsoever - that’s what religion is for. Belief is the enemy of knowledge and objective study of any kind.
One of the best things about science is that it requires no (and is, in fact, significantly hindered by) belief!
and is oftentimes difficult to differentiate
If you don’t know what science is, you can never differentiate between it and pseudoscience/religion/mythology presented under its guise. This is the purpose of the ubiquitous scientific illiteracy we suffer from.
So you’re fine having faith in something you cannot test or directly observe? Not very “scientific” ... much more of a religious view wouldn’t you say?
That’s true, things that are heavier than the media they displace fall. That’s the law of gravity! In its simplest form, it is the statement that “what goes up, must come down.
But the commenter i was responding to wasn’t talking about gravity, they were talking about gravitation the magical/mysterious/unknown postulated pseudoforce believed to cause that law. The former is, as you say, real. The latter is not.
Things fall merely because they were lifted and with the exact same energy used to lift them. They fall because the air beneath them cannot support their weight. Things do NOT fall because there is a magical “force” pulling them down. That is a stupid, unscientific, and fictional idea, as it was from its original inception.
Because that is the direction of its lowest energy state aka “rest”. Things tend towards rest/equilibrium. It’s also got a lot of matter above it pushing down; it’s the easiest way / path of least resistance for it to fall down.
I could easily argue that it is “blindingly retarded” to expect that it ought to fall in any other direction than the opposite of the one you lifted it. Or that “falling” ever could happen in any other direction than down, just as lifting could ever be in any other direction than “up”. It is arguably equally “blindingly retarded” to assume that air could or should support the weight of a physical object of significantly greater density that you lifted and released.
You may have misunderstood me. Things do fall because the air can’t support their weight, and because they were lifted and released. Things feel heavy because they are made of matter, and matter has weight. It is an intrinsic property of all matter, and because of the interplay between the weight of the object and the media it displaces it exhibits a force that totals downwards.
I dare say i have thought about it, discussed it, and researched it far more than you have or ever will!
The greeks believed the same thing about zeus. You are describing belief in your mythology - not science. Gravitational pull does not make sense (it is intractable), is not consistent with reality, and is fundamentally unscientific and fictional. I know what i am saying sounds wild, because it is wild.
I recognize the prominent role it plays in the modern creation mythology (and dogma) of scientism. That changes nothing.
These are contradictory statements. We don’t know why that happens, which is ALSO the same as not knowing the exact way that it happens. You believe it is the cause of observable and well established phenomena, but that’s only because of rote under the guise of education from childhood.
No, but until something is discovered it is NOT discovered. Gravitation is NOT discovered. It was simply made up and weaseled its way into textbooks. No science was involved. In science, things are not real until they are proven to be. We can measure weight. We can measure the speed things fall. We can measure the minuscule attraction between certain types of matter. We cannot measure “gravitational pull”, which makes it unemperical aka unscientific. Things we cannot measure do not belong in science. Belief does not belong in science.
So we are taught, and required to faithfully repeat. However in reality, it isn’t true. What we have is belief. In science, proof only comes from rigorous empiricism (scientific law - the “what”) and rigorous experiment (scientific theory - the “why/how”). Gravitational force has neither, and never has. Newton understood that it never could. This fact, and the meaning of it, is lost on most modern students :(
You can test and observe gravity very easily.
So we are taught!
What we can actually test and observe are gravitation’s believed effects.
Gravity [gravitation, not gravity] is somewhere between mysterious and pure fiction - i.e. pseudoscience.
We can observe falling (which is the law/phenomenon of gravity - but NOT gravitation. It is merely believed to cause it...), and we can observe minuscule attraction between some types of matter - but gravitation cannot be measured, observed, understood (3+ centuries and counting :(), or manipulated (required for experiment of any kind). It doesn’t exist outside of equation and is often referred to as a “pseudo-force” (pseudo meaning NOT real) as a result.
Then present a better explanation and validate it with experiments. That is how science works.
I’ve already done that!
In any case, coming up with an alternative is not necessary to criticize, identify, and/or refute existing pseudoscience or incorrect science. For example, gravitation has never been, and cannot be, experimentally verified nor can the belief that it is responsible for weight or the minuscule attraction we measure between some types of matter.
Newton understood this fully, which is why he famously didn’t even feign a hypothesis that could be experimentally verified, let alone go about creating an experiment to test it! He well understood it was folly, “philosophically unsound” - his words [i.e. unscientific], and attributed its mechanism to the christian god. A very, ahem, scientific “theory” indeed!
If only!
Dude you might be actually retarded.
'Gravity' as a term literally is defined by phenomenological effects. The 'cause' behind these effects (most recently: Higgs Boson) are indeed science fiction and literally everyone admits so (despite what popsci publications would have one believe).
There are a number of these phenomenological terms in science, where the effects are studied but causes not understood, e.g. diffraction, surface tension, etc. all terms of which are defined by their effects. People write huge dissertations on what the causes might be, but nobody really knows.
Falling objects literally demonstrate the PHENOMENA of gravity or gravitation. And yes, gravity has been indeed measured, observed, and understood for many centuries, though the causes are not.
That’s right! Gravity is a natural/scientific law [i.e. phenomenon] which is multiple millennia old.
Is fully known and understood, in my view. Since newton added the contrived unscientific fiction of “gravitation” into the mix, it’s been a “mystery” for 3+ centuries. We have made no progress on understanding it whatsoever. I know why. It [gravitation] isn’t real, and it never was.
Many, if not most, natural laws are this way. They are, and we deal with them. They are the empirical bedrock of science.
Ah, but there’s the rub. They aren’t the same and in science cannot be the same. A natural/scientific law (the phenomenon; gravity) can never be the same as the scientific theory (the experimentally verified cause of the phenomenon; what gravitation is billed as but in no way is) to explain it. That would be circular logic at best, un/anti-scientific, and just plain - to use your parlance - retarded.
Yes, gravity has been measured - that’s how scientific laws come to be - measurement. It is thousands of years old.
Gravitation is essentially a pseudoscientific hoax/fraud, and is merely a few centuries old. It’s junk, and wrong. Every physicist worth their salt since newton has loathed him for introducing magic into physics. “Spooky action at a distance” - in newton’s own words, “philosophically unsound” nonsense.
science cannot be proved anymore than your own perspective. but we must assume in order to understand, and we must understand to survive.
This is not exactly right. It is true that proof, outside of mathematics, is subjective, provisional, and historically doomed to refutation - but the scientific method is ALL about proving to the best of our abilities.
Experiment is how we prove that our scientific understandings for the cause of phenomena are correct. It isn’t truth, but it is the best we’ve got - and the closest thing (in my estimation) to proof that exists.
Sadly the vast majority of people are scientifically illiterate due to poor education, and so do not actually know what an experiment is or how the scientific method works or why. To make matters worse, they learn and use incorrect colloquial definitions for the vernacular (experiment, theory, hypothesis, etc.) so they can’t even have a discussion, let alone practice or study science - even if they wanted to :(
Assumption has no place in science whatsoever outside of hypothesis generation - which exists only for experimental validation/refutation (ideally). Science has no place for belief/assumption (it’s called bias, and is a four letter word).
Are perceptions bias? Also, please don't misunderstand, I agree with science. I am actually looking to pursue a career in mechanical engineering (or pure mathematics, because of proof as you mentioned). I believe that science done properly should be believed, but science, as far as observability, struggles to compete with propaganda, and is oftentimes difficult to differentiate. I agree with you in all that you have stated, I just wish that people would use commonsense more than their eyes and ears.
Generally, yes. Perceptions are subjective, and subjectivity is bias. Science is the attempt to suppress that inherent human quality and study objectively.
Likewise, i also appreciate and value science as a method of learning about the world and gaining new understanding and capacity/ability.
Science should NEVER be believed. Belief has no place in science whatsoever - that’s what religion is for. Belief is the enemy of knowledge and objective study of any kind.
One of the best things about science is that it requires no (and is, in fact, significantly hindered by) belief!
If you don’t know what science is, you can never differentiate between it and pseudoscience/religion/mythology presented under its guise. This is the purpose of the ubiquitous scientific illiteracy we suffer from.