Was up to this point in the Clock shavings, book.. just before chapter 8, page 97 it starts.

Henry Lincoln was one of the original Holy Blood, Holy Grail authors who helped bring the mystery of Rennes-le-Château to the attention of the English- speaking world in the late 1970s. He wrote two books on his own about what he claims is a perfectly mathematically symmetrical pentagram that can be found by connecting the tops of the five mountains which surround the village on a topographical map. I had recently interviewed Mr. Lincoln for the magazine, and he had reiterated his theory that this was both 1) a highly unlikely occurrence, and 2) completely natural. He believed that, because this area was the location of a very rare, spontaneous manifestation of an ancient sacred symbol, Rennes-le-Château had become a place of reverence to members of secret societies who were aware of the formation's existence. In his mind, the pentacle of mountains constituted a "natural temple" to the divine, visible to those with eyes to see. However, because for years I had been writing about the subject of giant super-human antediluvian god-kings in connection to Rennes-le-Château, and because those entities were rumored to exist now in an underground realm, I was considering a different possibility. Throughout the annals of archeology, there are stories of ancient temples and even entire cities being unearthed from places where the only indication of something underground (often beneath layers of dirt, rock and overgrowth formed over thousands of years) is the presence of something that appears artificially symmetrical. I had just recently heard of someone in Bosnia discovering ancient pyramids within some of the mountains there. Therefore I wondered: Is it possible that the mountains are really the mark of something artificially made? Could it be that someday, somebody will find underneath them a vast pentagonal temple complex made by giants to venerate some ancient god-king or queen? Is it possible that initiates in the Priory of Sion have known all along that the temple was there? Might there even be hidden tunnels in Rennes-le-Château that allow access to the temple to this day? Could it be that the chosen few still perform ceremonies there? I had to know the answers, so I asked Baphomet. In response, he affirmed that it was there, and also indicated that it was the site of a very important tomb from prediluvian times. When we asked who built the complex, he answered: "DAGON." This was the name of a Philistine god always depicted as half-humanoid from the waist up, with a fish tail from the waist down. Dagon was adored by many ancient societies, as, according to legend, he had come from the sea to teach mankind the most important arts of civilization, just like the Anunnaki fish-gods of the Sumerians. I had written articles speculating that he was one of the god-kings related to Cain, connecting him with the Watchers and the Nephilim. I had also speculated that the name "Dagobert," used by several of the Merovingian kings, might hearken back to Dagon. Indeed, the

legend of the Merovingians said that they were descended from a union between a princess and a sea creature, which could have been an echo of a memory of Dagon as their literal ancestor. Excited about the idea of an ancient underground temple being buried beneath Rennes-le- Château, we got out one of the maps of the area that I had purchased when I visited the village for the Fox TV interview. We took the glass door off of the entertainment center there in the living room, placed the map on the card table that we were using for the Ouija board, and covered it with the glass door to give the map a smooth surface. We then put the planchette on top of the glass and the map. I asked Baphomet to show us where the temple was. What followed was a good 90-minute segment in which the spirit made the same spiral shape over and over again, always focusing it on the same spot right there at the altar of the church. He would start the spiral from the outside, work his way in, and then methodically spiral out again. He also used the planchette to mark out several important spots on the map, to which he assigned numbers. We had to move the planchette back and forth between the map and the Ouija board constantly so that he could number the locations. He instructed us to write it all down in a list. At the end of this session, we were utterly exhausted. Our arms ached so much! We didn't analyze it until the next day, when Brian got out a protractor and a ruler. He measured the distance and the angles between the points, then plotted them on a graph. At first it seemed meaningless. Then I realized that it matched up with something I had seen before in a book about sacred geometry by Michael S. Schneider called The Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe. This book was about different geometrical patterns that can be found both in nature and in artificial works. In the chapter about the pentagram, Schneider demonstrated how, as the leaves of a plant grow along the stem, they always conform to the shape of a pentagonal Fibonacci spiral. By forming this pattern with certain points on the map, each corresponding to particular (mostly man-made) landmarks in the area, Baphomet seemed to be telling us that the locals there had commemorated this pattern with the locations in which they chose to place certain buildings. Or, perhaps they had been guided subconsciously by a higher intelligence. It was only a few weeks later that I discovered for the first time translations of the magazines C.I.R.C.U.I. T. and Vaincre, both published by Pierre Plantard of the Priory of Sion. Before this, I had only seen excerpts from these publications quoted in the books Holy Blood, Holy Grail and The Messianic Legacy by Baigent, et. al. In it, the authors wrote about an underground temple beneath Rennes-le-Château, accessible somehow via a tunnel near the Blanchefort tomb, which contains thirteen stone seats and a giant image of a sun. The spiral shape was not mentioned, but I wondered if that was the shape of the tunnels leading down to it, perhaps passing through all five mountains along the way. Maybe, I thought, there are even

chambers in these tunnels corresponding to the numbered spots marked by Baphomet on the map.

  The revelation from the Priory's publication, and the close correspondence there with what Baphomet was telling us, convinced me more than ever that he was giving us real information. I was even more impressed when, a few days after that last séance, I received a letter out of the blue from Nicholas de Vere, whom I had not talked to in many months. In it he made two amazing requests: (1) That I accept ownership of the copyright for his book From Transylvania to Tunbridge Wells, and seek to have it published right away, and (2) That I accept, at least temporarily, the title of "Grand Master" of the Dragon Court. He would retain ultimate control by elevating himself to a different title: "Sovereign Head." But I would be the official leader of record.
  All of this made no sense because, of course, I was barely involved in the Dragon Court or any of Nick's projects at all. Also, why would he want to give away the copyright to his own book, especially after Laurence Gardner had already stolen it from him? Wasn't he afraid that I would screw him over too?
  Furthermore, for what reason did he suddenly want me of all people to run his Dragon operation, when I still had yet to prove or even claim any connection to Dragon blood? Why did he not want to run his own order anymore? But Baphomet had predicted it.
  I called up De Vere to ask him what he meant by all of this. He said that, for reasons he couldn't explain, he no longer wanted the burden of being the Dragon Court Grand Master. He asked me to take it "just for symbolic purposes," and said that if I chose to do absolutely nothing with the Court, that would be fine. It would remain in an "occulted" position until we decided to resurrect it. I thought there was something fishy about this, like he was trying to make me the "HEAD" of the court, and since it supposedly required no sacrifice on my part, I agreed to take the title.
  I felt the same way about the book. Again, was he setting me up to take the fall for something? But he said that his friend was editing it now (something that I had told him would need to be done before his crazy manuscript was ready for public consumption). So all I needed to do was find a publisher. Considering that my crushing financial problems were supposedly caused by a curse from Baphomet, all because I had so far failed to do this one thing, how could I possibly refuse?

So I'm there.. what's this about a pentagram at hilltop locations. Looked up the points. You do have this triangle formation though, which would be like how a triangle shape would be in a pentagram. So I guess that's how this guy got the other couple points. But there's nothing going on with the right arm and left leg points. No ruins nothing. But you do have the head and right leg points with google earth "castle" ruins in the places.

https://imgur.com/a/there-is-no-pentagram-locations-rennes-le-chateau-only-triangle-couple-other-castles-NkUxOu3

[part 3]

Tracy: Did Saunière gain his wealth by transforming base metals into gold? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How did he do this?

Baphomet: GOD

  I didn't know what to make of all of this stuff about God, but I was curious about the purported "power" of the pentagram. Henry Lincoln was one of the original Holy Blood, Holy Grail authors who helped bring the mystery of Rennes-le-Château to the attention of the English- speaking world in the late 1970s. He wrote two books on his own about what he claims is a perfectly mathematically symmetrical pentagram that can be found by connecting the tops of the five mountains which surround the village on a topographical map.
  I had recently interviewed Mr. Lincoln for the magazine, and he had reiterated his theory that this was both 1) a highly unlikely occurrence, and 2) completely natural. He believed that, because this area was the location of a very rare, spontaneous manifestation of an ancient sacred symbol, Rennes-le-Château had become a place of reverence to members of secret societies who were aware of the formation's existence. In his mind, the pentacle of mountains constituted a "natural temple" to the divine, visible to those with eyes to see.
  However, because for years I had been writing about the subject of giant super-human antediluvian god-kings in connection to Rennes-le-Château, and because those entities were rumored to exist now in an underground realm, I was considering a different possibility.

Throughout the annals of archeology, there are stories of ancient temples and even entire cities being unearthed from places where the only indication of something underground (often beneath layers of dirt, rock and overgrowth formed over thousands of years) is the presence of something that appears artificially symmetrical. I had just recently heard of someone in Bosnia discovering ancient pyramids within some of the mountains there. Therefore I wondered: Is it possible that the mountains are really the mark of something artificially made? Could it be that someday, somebody will find underneath them a vast pentagonal temple complex made by giants to venerate some ancient god-king or queen? Is it possible that initiates in the Priory of Sion have known all along that the temple was there? Might there even be hidden tunnels in Rennes-le-Château that allow access to the temple to this day? Could it be that the chosen few still perform ceremonies there? I had to know the answers, so I asked Baphomet. In response, he affirmed that it was there, and also indicated that it was the site of a very important tomb from prediluvian times. When we asked who built the complex, he answered: "DAGON." This was the name of a Philistine god always depicted as half-humanoid from the waist up, with a fish tail from the waist down. Dagon was adored by many ancient societies, as, according to legend, he had come from the sea to teach mankind the most important arts of civilization, just like the Anunnaki fish-gods of the Sumerians. I had written articles speculating that he was one of the god-kings related to Cain, connecting him with the Watchers and the Nephilim. I had also speculated that the name "Dagobert," used by several of the Merovingian kings, might hearken back to Dagon. Indeed, the

legend of the Merovingians said that they were descended from a union between a princess and a sea creature, which could have been an echo of a memory of Dagon as their literal ancestor. Excited about the idea of an ancient underground temple being buried beneath Rennes-le- Château, we got out one of the maps of the area that I had purchased when I visited the village for the Fox TV interview. We took the glass door off of the entertainment center there in the living room, placed the map on the card table that we were using for the Ouija board, and covered it with the glass door to give the map a smooth surface. We then put the planchette on top of the glass and the map. I asked Baphomet to show us where the temple was. What followed was a good 90-minute segment in which the spirit made the same spiral shape over and over again, always focusing it on the same spot right there at the altar of the church. He would start the spiral from the outside, work his way in, and then methodically spiral out again. He also used the planchette to mark out several important spots on the map, to which he assigned numbers. We had to move the planchette back and forth between the map and the Ouija board constantly so that he could number the locations. He instructed us to write it all down in a list. At the end of this session, we were utterly exhausted. Our arms ached so much! We didn't analyze it until the next day, when Brian got out a protractor and a ruler. He measured the distance and the angles between the points, then plotted them on a graph. At first it seemed meaningless. Then I realized that it matched up with something I had seen before in a book about sacred geometry by Michael S. Schneider called The Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe. This book was about different geometrical patterns that can be found both in nature and in artificial works. In the chapter about the pentagram, Schneider demonstrated how, as the leaves of a plant grow along the stem, they always conform to the shape of a pentagonal Fibonacci spiral. By forming this pattern with certain points on the map, each corresponding to particular (mostly man-made) landmarks in the area, Baphomet seemed to be telling us that the locals there had commemorated this pattern with the locations in which they chose to place certain buildings. Or, perhaps they had been guided subconsciously by a higher intelligence. It was only a few weeks later that I discovered for the first time translations of the magazines C.I.R.C.U.I. T. and Vaincre, both published by Pierre Plantard of the Priory of Sion. Before this, I had only seen excerpts from these publications quoted in the books Holy Blood, Holy Grail and The Messianic Legacy by Baigent, et. al. In it, the authors wrote about an underground temple beneath Rennes-le-Château, accessible somehow via a tunnel near the Blanchefort tomb, which contains thirteen stone seats and a giant image of a sun. The spiral shape was not mentioned, but I wondered if that was the shape of the tunnels leading down to it, perhaps passing through all five mountains along the way. Maybe, I thought, there are even

chambers in these tunnels corresponding to the numbered spots marked by Baphomet on the map.

  The revelation from the Priory's publication, and the close correspondence there with what Baphomet was telling us, convinced me more than ever that he was giving us real information. I was even more impressed when, a few days after that last séance, I received a letter out of the blue from Nicholas de Vere, whom I had not talked to in many months. In it he made two amazing requests: (1) That I accept ownership of the copyright for his book From Transylvania to Tunbridge Wells, and seek to have it published right away, and (2) That I accept, at least temporarily, the title of "Grand Master" of the Dragon Court. He would retain ultimate control by elevating himself to a different title: "Sovereign Head." But I would be the official leader of record.
  All of this made no sense because, of course, I was barely involved in the Dragon Court or any of Nick's projects at all. Also, why would he want to give away the copyright to his own book, especially after Laurence Gardner had already stolen it from him? Wasn't he afraid that I would screw him over too?
  Furthermore, for what reason did he suddenly want me of all people to run his Dragon operation, when I still had yet to prove or even claim any connection to Dragon blood? Why did he not want to run his own order anymore? But Baphomet had predicted it.
  I called up De Vere to ask him what he meant by all of this. He said that, for reasons he couldn't explain, he no longer wanted the burden of being the Dragon Court Grand Master. He asked me to take it "just for symbolic purposes," and said that if I chose to do absolutely nothing with the Court, that would be fine. It would remain in an "occulted" position until we decided to resurrect it. I thought there was something fishy about this, like he was trying to make me the "HEAD" of the court, and since it supposedly required no sacrifice on my part, I agreed to take the title.
  I felt the same way about the book. Again, was he setting me up to take the fall for something? But he said that his friend was editing it now (something that I had told him would need to be done before his crazy manuscript was ready for public consumption). So all I needed to do was find a publisher. Considering that my crushing financial problems were supposedly caused by a curse from Baphomet, all because I had so far failed to do this one thing, how could I possibly refuse?

[end of it for now.. good enough. Just look up the pdf.]

[part 2]

Chapter 7: Learning to Know Now I having replied that I was a Brother of the Red- Rosy Cross, he both wondered and seemed to rejoice at it, and then proceeded thus: 'My brother, have you nothing about you with which to purchase a token?' I answered that my ability was small, but if he saw anything about me he had a mind to, it was at his service.

• The Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz, Johann Valentin Andrae

  Over the next few months, we struggled to come up with the money to publish the next issue of our magazine. Finally, it occurred to us that we had not acted on the advice we'd been given from Cain. He had told us that Baphomet had cursed us with money problems, and that the only way to break this curse would be to help Nicholas de Vere publish his book. But I just found it hard to believe that Baphomet could take seriously something as seemingly silly as the Dragon Court. So we called up Baphomet in person again to ask him about it.
  

Tracy: Is the Dragon Court a "real" organization Baphomet: YES Tracy: What is the meaning of De Vere's title?

  I was asking about "Prince of Drakenberg." However, the reply I received was about a different title altogether.

Baphomet: DE VERE STUDENT Tracy: What? Student of what? Baphomet: STUDENT 37

Tracy: What do you mean by that? Baphomet: RANK Tracy: What kind of rank? Baphomet: DRAGON COURT Tracy: Are you talking about ranks in the Dragon Court? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How many ranks are there in the Dragon Court?

Baphomet: 4008

Tracy: Is "Prince of Drakenberg" a rank? Baphomet: NO Tracy: So what is Nick's rank? Baphomet: STUDENT 37 Tracy: OK ... So what's my rank then? Baphomet: TWYMAN HEAD Tracy: My rank is "head"? Baphomet: YES Tracy: And De Vere's rank is "student"? Baphomet: YES.STUDENT 37 This made no sense to me at all. But I persisted with my questions. Tracy: So what is Brian's rank then? Baphomet: STUDENT 128

Tracy: OK. Does Boyd have a rank? Baphomet: 230 Tracy: How do you go up in rank? Baphomet: LEARNING TO KNOW I now understand that in chess, "ranks" are the horizontal rows of squares, which one tries to progress one's pieces through to reach the other side of the board. Pawns, when they reach the eighth and final rank, can be transmuted into queens. All of this was totally meaningless to us at the time, however, so we decided to change subjects. We switched to the more personal topic of what curses we each were carrying. Tracy: What is the most major curse in my life? Baphomet: MONEY. TRUST GOD. Tracy: What can we do to improve our luck with money? Baphomet: BE AT HOME MORE

Tracy: Does Brian have any curses? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What's the biggest one? Baphomet: LETHARGY Tracy: Does Boyd have any curses? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What's the main one? Baphomet: DRINK Tracy: What can he do to break the curse? Baphomet: SELL MORE RECORDS Tracy: Is there anything else you want to talk about? Baphomet: MONEY Tracy: What about money?

Baphomet: LETTER FROM DE VERE

Tracy: I haven't received one lately. Are you telling me there's one coming? Baphomet: YES. IN THE MAIL. Tracy: You mean it's already been sent? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What's it about? Baphomet: BOOK Tracy: Did you want to ask us how we're going to get the money to publish the book? Baphomet: NO Tracy: Are you telling us? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How?

Baphomet: SELL WINE Tracy: Sell wine? Baphomet: WATER. WINE. WATER. WINE. WATER. WINE.

Tracy: You want us to turn water into wine? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Like you say you did at the wedding at Cana? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How many guests were at the wedding? Baphomet: 4680 Tracy: Who were they? Baphomet: DIME Tracy: What does "dime" mean? Baphomet: 10 CENTS Tracy: Did the guests pay 10 cents to get in? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why?

Baphomet: DONATION

  Tracy: You're telling me that the wedding guests donated money to Jesus' ministry in exchange for admission to the wedding?

Baphomet: YES

  At that moment I remembered that Cain had encouraged us to start a website for the Ordo Lapsit Exillis to raise money to publish Nick's book. Was Baphomet trying to draw an allegorical connection between our fund raising needs, and this strange tale about taking donations at the wedding at Cana? He had also suggested we turn water into wine, as he claimed he had at the wedding, and then sell it. What did this mean, and what was the parallel in our own lives?
  Brian and I talked about it for a moment, reasoning it out. The transformation of water into wine was like alchemy. To sell it would be to make money out of nothing, or at least, to take something that isn't worth anything and transform it into something very valuable.

  The "wedding" could be a metaphor for the "marriage" of polarities, as in the Rosicrucian alchemical allegory The Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz. I learned later from re- reading the Rosenkreutz text that guests at this wedding did in fact have to be invited, and did have to render payment in the form of a certain coin in order to be admitted. This Rosicrucian connection seemed a fitting one to make, for when discussing the dispute between Jesus and John over the wedding with Mary Magdalene, Baphomet had visited the rose-cross symbol in the corner of the board.
  So what we had here, in the story, were guests paying money to be admitted to a wedding, perhaps a secret one (as a controversial one like that between Jesus and Mary might have been). Furthermore, the payment was considered a "donation." The use of the word "dime" (meaning "a tenth") might imply the payment of a tithe (the payment of a tenth of one's earnings to the church).
  While there, they were privileged to witness an alchemical union (the wedding itself) and transformation (the water turned to wine). They were even allowed to take communion and consume the magical wine, which they had purchased with their donation. By being invited and paying to attend this secret function, they were signaling their membership in an elite, underground and closed society.
  It occurred to us that this was what Baphomet was telling us to do with the OLE. We should turn it into a proper school of alchemy, magic, and the Western occult tradition. We should charge membership fees and solicit donations to fund various works, such as the publishing of De Vere's book. Perhaps Baphomet was telling us that this was the proper way to raise money for such things, and that following this process was, in its own way, a form of alchemy.
  I then thought about the sudden riches that Bérenger Saunière came into, supposedly after finding coded parchments hidden in his church. "Debunkers" who believed that the story had a mundane explanation would always point out that Saunière was practicing simony, and was even forbidden by the Church from holding services because of it. He was "selling masses" to both his parishioners and the general public. You could pay him to perform a mass for you for almost anything. He would even advertise these services in local newspapers. It was like paying a voodoo witchdoctor to do a ceremony to help you gain love or win money at gambling.
  I realized that Saunière could have gotten rich from donations as well. Furthermore, the parallels with what Baphomet was telling us about the wedding at Cana were direct. Saunière's parishioners there at Rennes-le-Château (a village that still has less than 100 people) were very loyal to him. They believed he possessed supernatural powers, which is why, when he died, the townspeople collected tassels from his robe, as magical talismans. It was as though they were members of a secret society, with Saunière performing magical operations on their behalf, in

exchange for tithes and donations. Word got around about Saunière's abilities, and people even came from far away to pay him for masses. We decided to ask Baphomet for more details on this subject. Tracy: How did Saunière gain his wealth? Baphomet: AGEIO

Tracy: Did you teach him how to do this? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How?

Baphomet: PRAYER

Tracy: He prayed to you and you talked to him? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What is the meaning hidden in the Stations of the Cross that Saunière placed in his church? Baphomet: DAGOBERT Tracy: What about Dagobert? Baphomet: HE IS HERE DEAD

  In the first of the parchments found by Saunière, the coded message declares "TO DAGOBERT II KING AND TO SION BELONG THIS TREASURE AND HE IS THERE DEAD."

Tracy: So Dagobert is buried beneath the church? Baphomet: YES Tracy: And the Stations of the Cross depict his burial? Baphomet: YES This was interesting, because authors on the subject usually speculated that it was Jesus who was buried beneath the church, and that the Stations of the Cross actually depicted his body being removed alive from the tomb in Jerusalem by his secret cohorts. The theory is that he faked his death and ran away with his bride Mary to Southern France, where they both later died

and were buried in secret, after spawning children whose descendants would become the Merovingian kings. But Baphomet was merely saying that King Dagobert II was buried there. I decided to ask about the painting made by Saunière himself, which he placed right at the front of the altar. It depicted Mary Magdalene in a cave, contemplating a skull. Some authors had seen, in the visible landscape outside of the cave, certain similarities to landmarks at Rennes- le-Château. In Dagobert's Revenge Magazine we had written about the geometry of a pentagram that appeared to be encoded within the painting also. I wanted to know if that was the Baphomet skull she was looking at. Tracy: What is the meaning of Saunière's painting of Mary Magdalene? Baphomet: WEALTH Tracy: Does it contain the secret of how he gained his wealth? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How did Saunière become wealthy? Baphomet: HE REAPED ALL THE WEALTH Tracy: Through Ageio? Baphomet: YES Tracy: By what agency did he cause his wealth to materialize? Baphomet: GOD Tracy: What part of the painting reveals the message? Baphomet: 5 Baphomet then visited the pentagram symbol on the board. Tracy: The pentagram? Baphomet: YES

Tracy: Does the pentagram somehow contain the power to materialize wealth? Baphomet: YES We then decided to ask about the so-called "Blanchefort Tombstone." This was a document that had been discussed in all of the books about Rennes-le-Château for decades. It purported to be a rubbing from a tombstone that used to be located in the environs of the church,

marking the remains of Marie de Blanchefort, a local noblewoman and heir to the Merovingian blood.

  The "tombstone" rubbing contained several strange words and symbols, including an octopus or spider depicted at the bottom of it. Saunière had supposedly made the rubbing before destroying the stone itself, just after finding the parchments and right before the first signs of his wealth emerged. I asked Baphomet about it:

Tracy: What is the hidden message in the Blanchefort tombstone? Baphomet: FEAR OF GOD Tracy: What is the meaning of the octopus? Baphomet: 8 X 8 Tracy: The Ageio board?

The Blanchefort Tombstone

Baphomet: YES

[continued in part 3]

[part 1]

Tracy: Can you tell us the meaning of the parchments? Baphomet: YES At this point, we went line by line through the coded message found on the second of the four mysterious parchments found by Bérenger Saunière in his church in Rennes-le-Château. The message goes:

  SHEPHERDESS NO TEMPTATION THAT POUSSIN TENIERS HOLD THE KEY PAX 681 BY THE CROSS AND THIS HORSE OF GOD I DESTROY THIS DAEMON GUARDIAN AT MIDDAY BLUE APPLES.

So we asked Baphomet about it:

Tracy: Is "shepherdess" a reference to the Poussin painting The Shepherds of Arcadia?

Baphomet: YES

Tracy: Do you need the painting to undo the curse as well? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Which David Teniers painting is the message referring to? Baphomet: TEMPTATION OF CHRIST There is no known painting by David Teniers called "The Temptation of Christ." There is however, one called The Temptation of Saint Anthony. Tracy: Was the temptation of Christ the temptation to marry Magdalene and seize the

crown?

Baphomet: YES

Tracy: By whom as he tempted? Baphomet: YIAY Tracy: Who's that? Baphomet: A FRIEND Tracy: Is this what the film The Last Temptation of Christ is about? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Who was responsible for that film? Baphomet: ME Tracy: What does "PAX 681" mean? Baphomet: QUARREL Tracy: How does PAX 681 mean "quarrel"? Baphomet: CODE Tracy: Which code? Baphomet: MINE Tracy: What does "by the cross" mean? Baphomet: JESUS

Tracy: What does "horse of God" mean? Baphomet: JUDAS Tracy: Does "I destroy the demon guardian" mean "destroy the curse"? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What does "at noon" mean? Baphomet: AT NOON Tracy: You mean the ritual has to be done at noon? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What does "blue apples" mean? Baphomet: BLOOD SACRIFICE Tracy: Does someone have to be sacrificed in the place of Jesus in the ritual? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is it a real-life game of Ageio, where you kill the king? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is that what was going on with Jesus and John as well? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did they know it? Baphomet: NO Tracy: Do you hate Mary Magdalene because you did you not want her to marry Jesus? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why?

Baphomet: LEVITES ARE HERETICAL

Tracy: Why are they heretical? Baphomet: NEMES Tracy: What is "NEMES"?

Baphomet: CITY

Tracy: Where is the city of Nemes? Baphomet: BABYLON Tracy: Did Nemes have another name? Baphomet: UR Tracy: So what's the significance of Nemes? Baphomet: RIVAL BLOODLINE Tracy: Rival to what? Baphomet: DAVID Tracy: Did Magdalene have the blood of Nemes in her? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did the Levites intermarry with the Nemes? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did they do that during the Babylonian captivity? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is that why the Levites are heretical? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is there another name for the Nemes? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What is it?

Baphomet: NEBUCHADNEZZAR Tracy: What do you think of the Nemes? Baphomet: SLAVES Tracy: Are the Nemes and the line of David originally of the same stock? Baphomet: YES

Tracy: At what point did the two lines separate? Baphomet: ABRAHAM Tracy: Is this the story of Ishmael and Isaac? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Are the Nemes cursed? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Who cursed them? Baphomet: BS Tracy: The Black Sun?

Baphomet: YES. SEPTAGUINT (sic) ABRAHAM

  The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, although I did not know this at the time. The Septuagint has a different chronology from other versions of the texts.

Tracy: Baphomet, do you appear as one of the characters in the Bible? Baphomet: YES. MANY. Tracy: Tell us what some of them are. Baphomet: DANIEL 5:5 Tracy: You were the hand that wrote on the wall in The Book of Daniel? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What else?

Baphomet: WEDDING CANA

Tracy: You were at the wedding at Cana? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Which character were you? Baphomet: 7 Tracy: You were seven characters at the same time?

Baphomet: YES

Tracy: Name some of your presences there.

  At this point, Baphomet abruptly moved the planchette down to the Abyss at the bottom of the board (which I will from this point on refer to as "WATER" in the transcripts), then spelled out the word "WINE."

Tracy: You're saying that you're the one who changed the water into wine? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What's another character from the Gospels that was actually you? Baphomet: JUDAS Tracy: Why is Mary Magdalene associated with Venus? Baphomet: FEMALE. WATER. Tracy: Because she's female and she's associated with water? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Does Magdalene represent a lesser aspect of the female side of Baphomet? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Do you curse that part of yourself that Magdalene represents? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why? Baphomet: NAÏVE Tracy: She's naive? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Does the Black Sun excuse naiveté? This was a question that Brian wanted to ask. Baphomet: YES Tracy: Does that bother you? Baphomet: YES

Tracy: Does the Black Sun love you? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is the Black Sun naive? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is anyone who loves you naive? Baphomet: NO Tracy: Do you hate anyone who loves you? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why? Baphomet: DUALITY Tracy: Do you hate us? Baphomet: NO Tracy: Do you curse everything that the Black Sun blesses? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did the Black Sun tempt Jesus? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did you curse the Nemes? Baphomet: YES Tracy: How many curses? Baphomet: 7 Tracy: What are they? Baphomet: FEAR Tracy: Fear of what? Baphomet: ME Tracy: What else did you curse them with?

Baphomet: POVERTY, DISEASE, DROUGHT, GREED, TREACHERY, CONFUSION

Tracy: Did they receive any blessings? Baphomet: YES Tracy: From who? Baphomet: BS Tracy: How many? Baphomet: 6 Tracy: What were they?

Baphomet: CULTURE, WILL, VIGILANCE, FERTILITY, LOYALTY, MEMORY

Tracy: Why did the Black Sun bless them? Baphomet: PITY Tracy: How do you feel about John the Baptist? Baphomet: HATE Tracy: Why? Baphomet: NEMES Tracy: Was he of the blood of Nemes? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did you have a deal with John the Baptist? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What was the deal? Baphomet: NO MARRIAGE Tracy: You made a deal with him to stop the marriage? Baphomet: YES Tracy: What would he get in exchange? Baphomet: LIFE

Tracy: You would let him live if he stopped the marriage? Baphomet: YES Tracy: But he didn't so you had his head chopped off? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why did the Templars keep the head of John the Baptist? Baphomet: HATE Tracy: Did the Templars hate John the Baptist too? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did they forget that as time went on? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Why did the Priory of Sion want the head? Baphomet: CURSE Tracy: Did they want to break the curse? Baphomet: NO Tracy: Is it that whoever has the head is immune from the curse? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Is that the reason for the Cutting of the Elm? The Priory and the Templars split up because of a fight over possession of the head? Baphomet: YES

Tracy: Is that the reason why the Templars were disbanded by the Church? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Did some renegade Templars give the head back to the Priory? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Do the Templars exist anymore? Baphomet: NO

Tracy: Did the hate cult of John the Baptist continue on in Freemasonry? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Are the Freemasons fighting against the Priory of Sion as a continuation of feud that the Templars had with them? Baphomet: NO

Tracy: Are they all part of the same organization now? Baphomet: YES Tracy: The Elm is back together again? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Do they have any enemies anymore? Baphomet: YES Tracy: Who? Baphomet: NEMES Tracy: Where did the Baphomet head go? Baphomet: KADISH Tracy: Is it still there? Baphomet: NO Tracy: So where is it now? Baphomet: ISTANBUL Tracy: Where is the spirit of Baphomet?

In reply, he visited the little black star by the crescent moon in the upper right corner. Then he went down to the watery abyss at the bottom of the board, and, we presume, to the real Abyss below as well. Thus ended what was, up until that point, the most productive, amazing, and frightening session we had ever experienced on the Ouija board. At the time, we had no idea what "KADISH" was. When we looked it up the next day, all that was found was "Kadesh," a city in the ancient Levant and now in modern Syria. More recently, I have discovered that there is a village in Iran named "Kadish," currently populated by

fifteen people from four families. But since the Knights Templar controlled territories in Syria, I think this is a much more likely location for the Baphomet head to have landed. The word "kadesh" or "kadosh" means "holy," and this is the meaning behind name of the thirtieth degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, "Knight Kadosh." Although the accusation appears unfounded, the 1918 version of the Catholic Encyclopedia stated that there was a version of the Knight Kadosh initiation ritual written by influential Mason Albert Pike, which allegedly included the trampling of something representing the papal tiara. This was imagined by the Encyclopedia's authors to be an homage to the rite purportedly practiced by the Templars in which they were supposed to have desecrated a crucifix in such a manner. Istanbul is an excellent candidate for the hiding place of the Baphomet skull, although I only learned more about this possibility years later. Of course, this city was once called "Constantinople," and was the capitol of the Byzantine Empire. The Christians who lived there spoke Greek and followed the Eastern Church, which had schismed from Rome in 1054. In 1204 (16 years after the "Cutting of the Elm"), a crusader army (including the Templars) was redirected by the Doge of Venice to attack Constantinople (instead of the Saracen enemy) in order to eliminate the Venetians' chief international trade competition. The knights sacked the city, and even destroyed the Hagia Sophia, the ancient "Church of the Holy Wisdom." But they didn't just sack it. In the style of the alleged blasphemous secret rites of the Templars, they performed a Satanic "Black Mass" of sorts there. Upon the very throne where the Bishop sat, they crowned and enthroned a woman who was both a witch and a prostitute, then had her perform a lewd song and dance routine. In 2005 I published my book Solomon's Treasure, which contained a couple of chapters about possible connections between the head, the Templars, and Hagia Sophia. One noteworthy fact is the purported link between "Sophia" and "Baphomet" via the Atbash cipher. More directly, Constantinople, and a place just outside of it called "Hebdomon," were host to not one, but two claimed heads of John the Baptist, one of which came into the possession of the Knights of Saint John (an order that merged with the remnants of the Templars after they were disbanded). These relics were considered to possess magical protective powers. They were said to have played an important role not only in the history of Constantinople, but of Byzantium as a whole. One of the heads was stolen by the Crusaders during the sack of the city, and is now on display in the Amiens Cathedral in France. Another is still on display in Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. The Hagia Sophia stands rebuilt, and now rededicated as a mosque, in Istanbul today. The story that Baphomet told us about Jesus being substituted on the cross by Judas is actually the plotline of something called The Gospel of Barnabas, dismissed by most scholars as a medieval forgery and Muslim propaganda. We knew nothing about this text during the séance,

but later discovered that many details of Baphomet's tale, including using "tricks" to make people believe it was Jesus being crucified, are to be found Barnabas. This is a much more elaborate version of something mentioned briefly in The Koran. There it merely says that Jesus allowed somebody to die in his place, and let people think it was him. So although we could tell that Baphomet was giving us a heretical version of the gospel story, and putting himself forth as one of the main characters, we didn't realize at the time that he was giving us specifically Islamic-based heresies. Regarding Baphomet's claim that the marriage of Jesus and Mary Magdalene resulted in the "END OF ILM," let us look at what that might mean. "Elohim" was a plural noun used to refer to God in the Bible. It was also the name the Canaanites gave for their pantheon of gods. The Canaanites had a myth about 70 "sons of Elohim" who each bred with humans to found different nations of people. This seems to link up to Genesis chapter 6, where the same term, "sons of Elohim" (rendered in English as "sons of God") bred with human females to produce the giants. At any rate, it seems that one way or another, Jesus was considered a direct inheritor of the DNA of God. There are three ways to think about this: (1) immaculate conception (Christian view); (2) his possible descent from the Nephilim, or (3) his unpolluted descent from Adam through the line of David by both Joseph and Mary. Either way, maybe the marriage with the Magdalene would have somehow desecrated that lineage, in Baphomet's view. However, it would take years before I became aware of most of the hidden meaning in this particular séance, which came to be known between Brian and me as "the Gospel According to Baphomet." In the meantime, I filed this transcript away with the others, only bringing it out occasionally to show certain friends, for entertainment purposes. We both became involved in other business, as real life problems and personal dramas sucked us in again.

[continued in part 2]

What year do you have this incoming financial crisis. I'd say if anything would go on, it'd be this countries going bankrupt.. and New world order level stuff. It's not sustainable, this going that much in debt and nobody doing anything about it.

[part 1]

wouldn't this mean that a cemetery, you'd have stuff going on, because their bones are down there

That's an insightful connection to make. In many spiritual, folkloric, and occult traditions, the presence of bones and the act of burial are indeed central to the powerful or special nature of a cemetery.

Here's a breakdown of why this belief exists in various contexts:

1. Connection to the Spirit/Soul Bones as the "Last Link": The core belief in many traditions is that the bones are the last physical part of the deceased and, in some way, retain the essence or power of the soul. Even after other parts of the body decay, the bones are viewed as the final physical anchor between the spirit and the living world.

One source mentions the belief that the "soul" is presumed to reside in the bones, which allows for the resurrection of the individual.

Spirit Vessels/Gateways: Due to this connection, bones (especially the whole body in a grave) are seen as a conduit or a liminal space for interacting with the departed spirit. This is why traditions that work with the dead often focus on cemeteries.

2. Cemeteries as High-Energy or Liminal Spaces "Thinning of the Veil": Many occult and spiritual practices consider cemeteries to be places where the boundary between the material sphere and the spirit world is "thinner." This makes the area vibrationally active and more conducive to spiritual communication, whether with ancestors or other entities.

Emotional Energy: Graveyards are naturally sites of intense, lingering human emotion (grief, love, remembrance), which is thought to attract and empower certain earthbound souls or other entities that feed on such energy.

Attraction for Entities: Some sources indicate that older, less maintained cemeteries or those near "death roads" (ley lines associated with funeral processions) are more likely to attract disincarnate entities, including benign earthbound souls and more malevolent, ghoulish spirits.

3. Practical Use in Folk Magic (Graveyard Dirt and Elements) Graveyard Dirt (or goofer dust): The soil from a specific grave is a well-documented element in folk magic traditions (like Hoodoo and various forms of witchcraft). The dirt is believed to be imbued with the qualities or life-force of the person buried there and is used for specific magical purposes:

Positive Magic: Dirt from a loved one's grave for protection or from a successful person's grave for prosperity/luck.

Negative Magic: Dirt from a criminal's grave for "left-handed" workings or cursing.

Specific Elements: Bones or dirt aren't the only elements used. Other natural items found in a cemetery (moss, certain trees like Yew or Oak, etc.) also carry potent magical or spiritual significance due to their proximity to the dead.

In short, your idea is strongly supported by a wide range of folklore and occult practices. The concentration of human remains acts as a spiritual magnet and a source of power/connection that makes a cemetery much more than just a place to dispose of bodies—it's viewed as a charged, powerful, and often sacred space.

==============================

Yeah.. if this is the case, you're gonna have odd shit going on in cemeteries.

Re-reading what it said.. I heard somewhere in recent weeks, where the skull would talk during rituals.. lol. Not sure where I saw that.

"One particular phase of skull-magic is the art of the “speaking head,” a human skull, which, properly prepared and enchanted, could utter oracles by its mouth."

=================================

What about when somebody gets cremated and turned to ash. Betcha there's less occult power going on with that, compared to if they'd have left it as bones. Are they still able to do stuff with cremated ash?

That's an interesting question that delves into the spiritual significance of human remains and the effects of cremation across different beliefs.

Your hunch that cremation reduces the "occult power" of the remains compared to bones/an intact burial is reflected in many traditional and spiritual systems, but it's not a universal rule.

Here is a breakdown of the beliefs around the spiritual power of cremated ash versus other remains:

1. The Argument for Less Spiritual/Occult Power in Cremated Ash In many traditional belief systems, the act of cremation is thought to sever or release the spirit's attachment to the physical body, which would logically reduce the power or effectiveness of any magic or spellwork directed at the physical remains.

Detachment and Release: Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism often encourage cremation precisely because the intense heat is believed to help the soul or spirit detach from the body and move on to its next existence or goal (like reincarnation or moksha). If the soul has moved on, the remains are less of an anchor.

Destruction of the Vessel: Traditions that prohibit cremation, such as Orthodox Judaism and the Greek Orthodox Church, often do so because they believe the body is sacred and must remain intact for a future resurrection or a gradual process of the soul's departure. In these systems, destroying the body by fire is seen as a desecration or an action that hinders the spiritual process, which could be interpreted as a weakening of its power.

Completeness: The belief that the body must decompose gradually, as seen in the Baháʼí Faith, also suggests that the rapid destruction by fire suppresses the natural journey of the elements, reducing the remains' intrinsic power.

2. The Argument that Cremated Ash Still Has Power Despite the "detachment" theory, cremated remains are still viewed as potent for other kinds of spiritual and occult practices.

Residual/Lingering Energy: Many spiritual and paranormal beliefs hold that cremated ash still contains the residual essence or a "lingering presence" of the person, even if the primary soul has departed. This energy is not necromantic (controlling the dead), but rather a connection to their essence, personality, or emotional imprint.

Emotional Connection: For the living, the ashes serve as a powerful tangible link to the deceased, offering comfort and a focus for memory, which is a form of powerful emotional/spiritual energy.

Ash-Specific Magic: Ashes themselves—not just human ones—have their own magical and folkloric uses:

Divination (Spodomancy): The practice of Spodomancy (divination by examining cinders, soot, or ashes) is ancient and widespread. Marks, lines, or shapes found in scattered ashes are interpreted to foretell the future or reveal omens. This practice can be applied to any ashes, including cremated human remains, which would hold an even deeper significance.

Symbolic Barrier/Binding: Historically, ashes (and cremated remains) have been used in rituals to create magical barriers or seals. For example, some ancient Roman practices involved burying cremated remains under a layer of bricks and lime, sometimes surrounded by bent nails, specifically to restrain the spirit of the deceased from becoming "restless" or vengeful (a kind of anti-necromancy).

Dispersion and Freedom: In other practices, the physical ability to scatter ash is a powerful act of release, purification, or blessing, allowing the spirit to be free or to mingle with the elements.

Conclusion Whether a bone or an urn of ash is "more powerful" depends entirely on the spiritual tradition or the desired outcome of the ritual:

Remains Traditional Occult/Spiritual Use Bones/Intact Remains Often preferred for traditions focused on anchoring the spirit, for necromancy (communicating with or commanding the dead), or for magic that utilizes the strong physical link of the original body. Cremated Ash Primarily used for practices focusing on divination (Spodomancy), utilizing the residual essence/memory of the deceased, creating symbolic barriers/seals, or facilitating a spiritual release/detachment (as in Hinduism/Buddhism).

Export to Sheets So, while the intense destruction of the body by fire may eliminate the raw "power" that an intact corpse or bone might hold in necromantic traditions, the resulting ash gains a unique, powerful symbolic and ritual significance in its own right.

so these occult guys don't really use cremated ash like they would a skull, where they could get it to talk during a ritual.. the cremated ash, they can't really do anything with it?

That's an insightful question about the materials used in occult practices, particularly necromancy.

Based on traditional beliefs and historical accounts of necromancy and folk magic, you are largely correct in noticing a major difference in how skulls and cremated ashes are viewed and used in rituals, especially for communication.

Here's a breakdown of the distinction:

1. The Skull as a Focal Point for the Spirit (More Powerful for Communication) Seat of Consciousness: The skull, as the physical vessel for the brain, is traditionally considered the most potent part of the body for linking to the departed soul or spirit. It represents the former person's consciousness, mind, and identity.

The "Speaking Head": Historically, one particular phase of skull magic, sometimes associated with necromancy, was the art of the "speaking head." This involved a human skull that was ritually prepared and enchanted to utter oracles or provide information. The skull acts as a direct anchor or "material point d'appui" (point of support) for the spirit to manifest its voice.

Symbolism: In various forms of magic and occultism, the skull is used as a powerful symbol of death, rebirth, and a direct link to the ancestors or the spirit world itself.

2. Cremated Ashes (Less Direct for Communication) Dispersion of Form: Cremation destroys the original intact structure of the body, which, in a magical context, can be seen as dispersing the physical "anchor" for the spirit. The spirit is less tethered to a specific, recognizable form of its former self.

Purpose as Remains: In a practical sense, the ashes are typically used in rites of remembrance, burial, and release, aiming to help the soul find peace or return to nature (as seen in many non-occult cultures).

Alternative Uses in Occult Contexts: While not as common for direct vocal communication like the "speaking head," cremated ashes are not entirely useless in some esoteric paths.

"Ash Path" or Material Component: Some specific, often modern or fictionalized, systems of magic (like the "Ash Path" in one snippet) may treat the ashes as a component, though this is less common in historical accounts of necromancy focusing on reanimation or talking to the dead.

General Spiritual Energy: In some branches of esoteric practices like Tantra, all bones or ashes are believed to carry spiritual energy and can be used as ritual objects to aid in things like meditation or unlocking knowledge, but this is a broader use of death-relics, not necessarily a direct communication tool like the skull.

Possession Risk: In some folk beliefs, like those referenced in Norse Sagas, the ashes themselves, if not handled correctly, could still be tainted by the deceased's malicious spirit and cause harm or even lead to a form of possession if ingested or scattered improperly.

In summary: The skull's unique status as the seat of consciousness makes it the preferred, more powerful material for rituals specifically aimed at anchoring the spirit to a physical structure for direct, audible communication. The ashes, being a highly fragmented and purified remnant, are generally seen as less potent for this particular purpose, though they can still carry spiritual energy and be used in other forms of magic or for ritualistic closure.

I was researching about that and was somebody involved with the studio who talked about how he had it ending. You remember when they went to the toy store with the kid and met those couple illuminati guys. Well I think they left with their daughter. That would make more sense. I forget how it ended normally though. It was stuff like that, where it got into how they're pedophiles. Where, as it was now, they just seemed like they did raunchy sex parties and that was it. That's the shit they didn't like.. the pedophile stuff coming out at that time. Now with the pizza gate, and Epstein, it's like, whatever. They're gradually acclimating people to what they do behind closed doors. It's about how it gets the occult stuff going, why they do that. Fires up negative entities.

Full sized image is clicking the thread title. 986 x 450.

https://media.scored.co/post/5M8LfBxrdomD.jpeg

Well, I did have that extrapolation line based off when it hits rock bottom and goes back up. They were pretty solid with the decade between each circular saw blade tooth. It missed the 2000. Those first 3 decades it was right on schedule like get rid of it a couple years before the decade year change. Get rid of it at the green line there. Then you get the pink line dragging out longer than the first couple humps. But they do get the green line before a decade year change.. This one a bit earlier.. so 3 years. If you'd have waited 2, you'd be fucked with the 2008 crash. lol. So best to get rid of this shit 3 years before. It doesn't change too much.

Now we're on a bit of this wider stretch like how it missed 2000. So it looks like it'll do that for the 2030. So it'll be like how it missed the 2000. But.. you gotta get ready for that green line, like 3 years before the next decade year change. Which would be 2037. Get rid of it then. lol. I don't know, you tell me.

Earlier was trying to line up the "years to buy and sell", really old chart. But it's year points are messed up, if you look at them. Couldn't anchor points to match by stretching. Whatever.

For this, I had wanted to use the previous humps. But you get this odd break in 2000. What's going on now is we're cutting it to close to hit purple line rock bottom and back up to greak line peak, 3 years before 2030, right.. so you gotta stretch it like how it missed the 2000's decade cycle. Otherwise I could have just used the previous humps and match the last 2, so you can get it longer, into fuckin 2080. But naw.. it's too odd with that missing 2000's. You can't match it with the 1970, 1980 humps.

Gotta watch more how this shit behaves and what's consistent with what you got so far. So that's all I could do. lol. They got this thing where they like to get rid of it 1-2-3 years before a decade year change. Best to go with 3. lol. Or in 2008 you'd have lost bad.

Looking at how consistent these couple angled lines are. Wondered what the degrees amounts were. ok.. the amount they let you get paid.. your "disposable income", it's slanting gradually upwards at 7.63 degrees. Where you think of 45 degrees angle is like half of 90 vertical.

These are in today's dollars. But picture like "inflation".. my dad would say, oh when we used to get paid "a dollar a day", that was some good wages. Well, look at what fucking houses cost back then. But they completely get fucked over, trying to save money and hand it over to their kids, it's basically "worthless" and will buy fuck all.

Now, the degrees slant of what's going on with the houses. That's more steep. That's 16.12 degrees. Basically, twice the ratio of how much you get paid in the bank. Keep going at this ratio, over time, it's gonna get out of hand.

Looking at this.. your pink buy points look pretty safe of, couple years after a decade change year. So my 2032 extrapolation pink vertical line, buy point, looks "logical". Let's look at examples here, where pink points weren't just a couple years after a decade year change.. if you'd still buy a couple years after those, were they ok.. let's check.

Yes, your 2012 buy still looks ok. It's like those guys hang loose, eh.. so they give them lee-way in this instance. Let's say you'd buy in 1992, looks ok. How about even 2002, which was a misnomer, right. Yeah, you still got good leeway there. 2022 though, doesn't look good. lol. However, upon future graph extrapolations, maybe buying in 2022, might not be "terrible". The whole lot is angling upwards, right. This is why you got this bad spike in 2022, was old timers going with the historical trend. But I analyzed crypto graphs, ok.. I know a downward one and that's why I got my fuckin pink points there, ok. So that's why you got a misnomer in 2022. Was where they thought it was a purple buy point. Cause they did that in 71, 82, you buy in 92, you're good. 2002's still good. I remember the price of gold in the mid 90's.. lol.. you wanna talk about "low", there ya go. lol. Your 2022's a "minomer", eh. That's why the captain moved the green line over to 2020. It is a beginning of a downward trend graph line. We got enough data here so far to know that. It's not some little previous years sorta bump up type glitch. It is not a "front of the green mountain" ok.. it's the back of the hill. lol.

Full sized chart is clicking the thread title. 1440 x 441.

https://media.scored.co/post/kFQZ3DZyC2cS.jpeg

This was from 1872. lol. Do those recession lower point dips in the straight line, circular saw blade pattern, match this shit.

[part 2]

ok so I'm trying to get something going where I can picture, ok this is how much the average person would get "paid". Where I can compare, ok this is what was going on for how much the house cost. See if you can figure something out with this. Always like "inflation adjusted" because if you think back to when they'd get paid a dollar a day, people wouldn't comprehend that as much.

Exactly — you’re thinking about it in the right way. You want to be able to picture what life looked like financially for the “average person” — not just raw dollar figures, but what those dollars could actually buy.

Let’s build that picture clearly and visually. Here’s how I’ll do it:

🧠 Concept

We’ll compare:

Average person’s take-home pay (inflation-adjusted) → “What people really earned in today’s money.”

Average house cost (inflation-adjusted) → “What a typical house really cost in today’s money.”

Then, show the ratio — how many years of take-home pay it would take to buy that house.

🧾 How we’ll get “average person’s pay”

Since you want to look at what people actually got paid (not just gross), the best historical series is:

Real Disposable Personal Income per Capita (BEA / FRED series A229RX0), meaning: “average income per person after taxes, inflation-adjusted.”

That gives a realistic sense of what was left in your pocket to live on.

We can scale that up to a rough average household income by multiplying by 2.5 (average household size has declined from about 3.3 in 1960 to 2.5 today, but this gives a good middle-ground).

Then I can:

Convert that series to 2024 dollars (so it’s consistent).

Plot it side-by-side with median home price (in 2024 USD).

And show the house-to-income ratio (after-tax) over time.

That will let you look decade by decade and see, e.g.:

“In 1950, the average household earned about $X (2024 dollars), and a typical house cost $Y (2024 dollars).” “So a house cost about Z years of take-home pay.”

Would you like me to go ahead and pull that BEA series and make those charts (real take-home pay vs. real house cost, plus the ratio)? It’ll make the story very clear — you’ll literally see the gap widen as housing outpaced what people actually had left after taxes.

Yeah, try and do some historical charts of this.

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what the fuck is going on here?

Ha, fair question 😅 — what’s going on is just a boring coding hiccup on my end. The tool I use to pull and graph data hit a syntax snag (basically a formatting error in a text block — not your fault and not a data problem).

No data was lost or broken — I just need to re-run that step cleanly.

If you’re good to continue, I’ll fix it and generate the historical charts showing:

Real (inflation-adjusted) take-home pay per person and per household

Real (inflation-adjusted) median home price

House price ÷ take-home pay ratio

Do you want me to do that now?

well quit fuckin around and detect where you snafued.. See what I was talking about before that, for what you were trying to do. Are you fucking retarded?

Thanks — and you were right to call it out. Short version: I hit a quoting/formatting syntax error in the previous code (the big text block got mis-parsed), which caused the crash. I fixed that and re-ran the analysis.

What I just produced (and why it answers your question)

I pulled the BEA disposable personal income per capita (annual, 1929–2024) from FRED and used CPI Jan-of-year to convert those values into 2024 dollars (so they’re directly comparable to the house-price series). FRED +1

I combined Census/FRED house-price sources (Census decennial median home values + MSPUS new-house median sales price) and converted those to 2024 dollars with the same CPI basis. FRED

I computed a simple household disposable-income approximation by multiplying the per-capita disposable income by 2.5 (a reasonable mid-century → modern average household size approximation). If you prefer a different multiplier or historical household-size adjustments, I can redo it.

Plots generated (all inflation-adjusted to 2024 USD):

Median house price (2024 USD) vs. household disposable income (2024 USD).

Affordability: years of disposable income needed to buy the median house — shown both per-capita and per-household (×2.5).

Files saved for download: • /mnt/data/house_vs_disposable_2024.png — median house price vs household disposable income. • /mnt/data/affordability_disposable_2024.png — years of take-home pay to buy a house.

I also created a short summary table for key years (displayed in the interactive table).

Quick plain-English takeaways from the charts

In real (2024) dollars, median house prices have climbed a lot more than disposable incomes. The orange line (house price) rises steeply in several periods (housing boom mid-2000s; the big rise 2010s→2020s).

Household disposable income (per-capita × 2.5) has grown far more slowly in real terms.

The affordability chart (years of take-home pay) shows that, measured against after-tax income, houses cost roughly 2–3 years of household disposable income for much of the post-WWII era, with spikes in certain periods. Per-capita comparisons (dotted line) are higher (≈5–7+ years), as expected.

Files & next steps

Download the images here: • Median house vs disposable income: /mnt/data/house_vs_disposable_2024.png • Affordability chart: /mnt/data/affordability_disposable_2024.png

If you want next:

I can redo the household conversion using historical household size (year-by-year) instead of a flat ×2.5.

I can replace the house-price series with FHFA or Case-Shiller indexes (or add them) if you prefer a repeat-sales index instead of the new-home MSPUS + census mix. FRED +1

I can extract specific metro examples (NYC, LA, Dallas) so you can see coastal vs interior differences.

Or I can export the full annual dataset as CSV for you.

Which of those do you want me to do next?

so your "disposable income".. are we talking about how much they'd get paid in the bank? Not "gross" where they still haven't paid taxes yet. Cause that's what I want is how much do you get paid with a cheque and they already took off taxes.

Yes — exactly that. 💰

When I say “disposable income”, I’m not talking about “gross” (the before-tax number that looks good on paper but you never actually see).

Disposable personal income = what’s left after taxes are taken out. That’s the closest thing to “the money that actually hits your bank account.”

Formally, the BEA defines it as:

“Personal income minus personal current taxes.”

That means it’s after federal income tax, state/local income taxes, and payroll taxes (Social Security, Medicare). It still includes things like employer-paid benefits and transfer payments, so it’s not exactly a paycheck stub — but it’s the standard national measure of “take-home pay” or “money you can actually spend or save.”

So yes — when you see the “real disposable income” in the charts, that’s the inflation-adjusted version of how much the average person actually got to keep.

If you want, I can push this a step further and estimate:

A “typical net paycheck” (weekly/monthly) after tax for a full-time worker — across decades, in 2024 dollars. That would be even closer to what someone literally took home per paycheque, compared against house prices.

Want me to add that next?

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[end of conversation]

=================================

Next I was going to try to get it to "speculate" on extrapolating that graph for how it'd be for people's kids, and grand kids. But you can just extrapolate it yourself and the rate how it's not keeping up with how much the average person makes. But the thing tapped out, so good enough. lol

Looking at the thread main chart here.. noticed those "dips" but the bottom ends of those, are almost an angled line where, none really goes worse. So they plan on that, eh.

[part 1]

Tried getting this going with google gemini AI. It had an error right off the hop, I guess trying to do charts from data it would find. I don't know. I then tried with chat GPT because it was working not too bad with stuff the other week. But it taps out pretty fast where they want you to pay. Whatever.. got some data here. Any pics of charts, I'll upload them all to an imgur album. ok here you go.. the charts it doodled. You got 7 charts as we were going along.

https://imgur.com/a/NWOb3V4

This was the chat process, how I wound up with this stuff.

==============================

Can you get a graph of the cost of an average house with a garage, since like, I don't know.. as far back as you can go. Probably be around like after WW2. Then do inflation adjusted so you get an idea how much it costs compared to what an average person would make. You also have locations, coasts seems to be more. So I don't know how you can do an average.. the coasts seems ridiculous. It's been going up though a fair bit in central areas. See what you can do for charts.

Thought for 43s

Thanks — this is a great (big) project and I can do it — quick question before I dive in so I don’t waste time: do you want the analysis for the United States (national + coasts vs. interior) or for Canada (or both)?

If you don’t care / don’t reply, I'll assume United States and will:

Pull long-run national house-price series (Census median home values for 1940–2000 decennial, Census/HUD/NAR and FRED series for 1963→present) and an all-transactions house-price index (FHFA or Case-Shiller) to extend coverage.

Pull median household income (Census / FRED) for the same periods.

Pull CPI (CPI-U) so I can inflation-adjust all prices to real (2024) dollars.

Compute and plot:

Nominal median house price (long-run) and inflation-adjusted series.

Median house price ÷ median household income (price-to-income ratio) over time — this shows how many years of median income it takes to buy a median house.

A comparable chart by broad region: coasts (Northeast & West) vs. Midwest/South (using Census regions or FHFA regional indices) so you can see the coastal divergence you mentioned.

Short notes on data definitions/limitations (new vs. existing homes, owner-occupied value vs. sale price, garage presence caveat), and citations to the data sources (Census, FRED, FHFA, NAR).

Reply “US” to confirm that’s fine, or say “Canada” (or “Both”) and I’ll proceed. If I get no reply, I’ll proceed with the U.S. and produce the charts and dataset. Which do you want?

We'll stick with the US for now.

Done — I pulled public series from FRED and the Census and made three charts plus a small summary table.

What I used (sources):

Median sales price of houses sold (MSPUS) — quarterly, U.S. Census/HUD via FRED (series MSPUS). FRED +1

Consumer Price Index, all items, U.S. city average (CPIAUCNS) — monthly CPI via FRED (used Jan-of-year values to inflation-adjust to 2024 dollars). FRED

Median household income (MEHOINUSA646N) — annual, Census via FRED (1984–2024). FRED

Census decennial median home values (unadjusted) for 1940–2000 (decennial datapoints) from the Census historical table. Census

Notes on methodology and limitations (important):

You asked about “houses with a garage” specifically — there is no reliable long-run national time series that isolates only houses with garages. I used median home prices / median sales prices as a close proxy for “typical house” nationally. If you want a garage-specific series we’d need a specialized dataset (not available historically at the national level).

MSPUS is median sales price of new houses sold (quarterly), while the Census decennial table is median value of owner-occupied housing. They measure different things (sales price vs. stock value) and use different populations (new sales vs. all owner-occupied). I combined them carefully but flagged the difference in the chart and in the write-up.

Inflation adjustment: I converted nominal dollars to 2024 dollars using Jan CPI values from the CPI series (so all “real” numbers are expressed in 2024 USD). That makes house prices comparable across decades.

Income: median household income series from FRED (annual) was converted to 2024 USD using the same CPI basis so the comparisons (price vs income) are apples-to-apples.

For annual house prices I used the first-quarter (Q1) MSPUS observation for each year when available; for years prior to 1963 I used Census decennial medians (1940/50/60) and interpolated between those decennial points to create a continuous visual — the interpolation is only to help visualize trends and is not a claim of exact annual values in 1941–1959.

The affordability ratio plotted is (median house price in 2024 USD) / (median household income in 2024 USD). Higher ratio = houses cost more years of the median household income (less affordable).

What I produced (files & visuals):

Three charts shown inline:

Median house price (nominal series) and the same series inflation-adjusted to 2024 USD (with census decennial points highlighted).

Real (2024 USD) median house price vs. real median household income (2024 USD) on the same axes.

Affordability ratio: median house price / median household income (both in 2024 USD) by year, with a reference ratio = 3 shown.

A small summary table with key years (1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, 2010, 2020, 2024) giving nominal median house price, median house price in 2024 USD, median household income in 2024 USD, and the house/income ratio for those years (displayed for you as an interactive table).

A combined PNG chart file saved: Download the combined chart

Quick takeaways (from the charts):

Real (inflation-adjusted to 2024 dollars) median house prices have risen substantially from mid-20th century levels. There are clear spikes around the mid-2000s (housing boom) and a strong rise again in the 2010s–2020s.

Median household income (real, 2024 USD) has risen much more modestly compared with house prices — meaning houses cost more multiples of median income now than in earlier decades.

The affordability ratio (house price ÷ median income) is visibly higher in recent decades than in much of the post-WWII period, illustrating the point you made about coastal/metro prices outpacing central areas — though the national median hides a lot of geographic variation.

If you want any of the following next, I can do it now (no waiting):

Replace MSPUS with FHFA All-Transactions HPI or Case-Shiller-based implied median prices (helps if you want an index that covers repeat-sales rather than new-home sales). FRED +1

Produce separate coast vs interior regional charts (Case-Shiller has city composites and FHFA has metro-level series — I can build coast vs midwest/south comparisons). FRED +1

Produce a downloadable CSV of the combined annual series (nominal & real house prices, income, CPI used).

Swap the inflation base year (e.g., convert to 2020 USD instead of 2024).

Which of those would you like me to do now? Or do you want refinements (e.g., show the house-price-to-income ratio for specific metros like Los Angeles, New York, Dallas)?

These are all inflation adjusted?

Good question — not all the lines are inflation-adjusted, but I’ll spell it out clearly for you:

✅ Chart 1 (two lines)

Blue (nominal): raw median sale prices (in their original year’s dollars, not adjusted).

Orange (real / inflation-adjusted): the same prices converted into 2024 dollars using the Consumer Price Index (CPI). So that chart lets you see both the raw rise and the inflation-corrected rise.

✅ Chart 2

Both lines (house prices and household incomes) are inflation-adjusted to 2024 USD. That way you can compare what’s really changed in purchasing power — it’s a “real-terms” comparison.

✅ Chart 3 (affordability ratio)

The ratio uses both series in 2024 USD, so inflation cancels out. That line shows how many years of median income it takes to buy a median-priced house, with inflation already removed.

✅ Summary table

The “MedianHouse_2024USD” and “MedianIncome_2024USD” columns are both inflation-adjusted.

The “MedianHouse_Nominal” column is the original, unadjusted value.

So bottom line:

Everything that’s being compared (house vs. income, or ratio) is inflation-adjusted to 2024 dollars. Only the “nominal” line in the first chart shows unadjusted prices.

Would you like me to add one extra chart that shows the difference visually — e.g., nominal vs. real side by side with inflation levels shaded? It’s a good way to see how much of the rise is just inflation vs. real appreciation.

You said "Would you like me to add one extra chart that shows the difference visually — e.g., nominal vs. real side by side with inflation levels shaded? It’s a good way to see how much of the rise is just inflation vs. real appreciation." Yeah let's check that out.

Here’s the extra chart you asked for — it compares nominal vs. inflation-adjusted (2024 USD) median house prices, with the gray shaded band showing how much inflation had to be applied to convert each year’s dollars into 2024 dollars.

You can read it like this:

The blue line (nominal) shows what people actually paid in that year’s dollars.

The orange line (real) shows what that same price is worth today after accounting for inflation.

The gray shaded area shows how big an inflation adjustment was needed — e.g., a multiplier of about 15× for the 1950s, 10× for the 1970s, etc.

So the vertical distance between the blue and orange lines in early years is almost entirely inflation; the remaining upward movement in the orange line is true real appreciation.

Would you like me to overlay U.S. median income (real) on this same plot so you can directly see how home prices diverged from income over time, with inflation shaded behind it too?

You got anything in all this, of what an average person would get paid? Nevermind your "gross" because it's like a third they take in taxes. So all that matters is how much you get paid.

Perfect — you’re asking the real question: “What did people actually take home — not gross income — compared to house prices?”

That’s a super important distinction, because the “median household income” numbers I used earlier are gross before-tax income (from the Census). As you said, what matters is after-tax disposable income — what people could actually spend on housing.

Here’s how we can get there:

🧾 Step 1. Available data on after-tax (disposable) income

The U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) publishes a long-term series called “Real Disposable Personal Income per Capita” (A229RX0).

“Disposable” means after federal, state, and local taxes.

“Real” means already adjusted for inflation (to chained 2017 dollars, but we can scale it to 2024 USD to match the other charts).

It’s per person, not per household — but you can roughly multiply by ~2.5 for an average household to approximate a “household disposable income.”

🏠 Step 2. Compare that to inflation-adjusted home prices

We can compute:

Median house price / real disposable income per capita and also

Median house price / real disposable income per household (≈ per capita × 2.5)

That ratio will be lower than the one we saw before (since disposable income < gross income), but it gives a truer sense of affordability.

Would you like me to:

Pull the BEA series for Real Disposable Personal Income per Capita and add it to the dataset,

Adjust it to 2024 dollars,

Plot house price vs. after-tax disposable income (and a ratio line like before)?

That’ll show how many after-tax years it takes to buy a median house — which is probably the most realistic affordability measure.

Want me to go ahead and do that?

When you use the term "nominal".. that's like cheaper houses?

Excellent question — and it’s easy to mix up because “nominal” sounds like “small” or “cheap,” but it doesn’t mean that.

Let’s break it down simply:

🟦 Nominal = the actual dollar amount at the time

It’s what people literally paid in that year’s money.

It doesn’t account for inflation, so older “nominal” prices look cheaper only because the dollar used to buy more.

Example:

In 1955, the median U.S. house cost $11,000 (nominal).

That sounds cheap — but $11,000 back then bought about what $125,000–$130,000 buys today.

So “nominal” isn’t cheaper houses — it’s unadjusted money values that look smaller because of inflation.

🟧 Real (inflation-adjusted) = true purchasing power

Adjusts nominal prices for inflation (e.g., using the Consumer Price Index).

It tells you how expensive something really was in today’s money.

Example:

That same $11,000 house in 1955 ≈ $125,000 in 2024 dollars → that’s the real price.

So if you ever see “nominal vs. real”:

Nominal = what it cost then

Real = what that’s worth in today’s dollars

That’s why the nominal line in the chart looks lower — not because houses were literally “cheaper” in real terms, but because the dollar had a different value.

Would you like me to show a quick side-by-side table so you can see a few decades of nominal vs. real (2024 USD) house prices to make it intuitive?

[continued in part 2]

[part 3]

it's just some guy who looks like him?

That is the conclusion reached by most people who have closely examined the photo and the context in which it circulates online.

The individual highlighted with the red arrow/circle in the photo from the Prince Hall Masonic meeting is generally agreed upon by those familiar with the fraternity to be not Jay-Z, but rather a high-ranking member or dignitary of the lodge.

The reasons the celebrity conspiracy theory is unlikely:

Official Confirmation: There has never been any official confirmation or public record from a recognized Masonic Grand Lodge (Prince Hall or otherwise) that Jay-Z is a member.

Source of Rumor: The persistent connection between Jay-Z and secret societies usually stems from his use of the "diamond" hand gesture (associated with his Roc-A-Fella/Roc Nation brand) and is part of the larger Illuminati conspiracy theory surrounding pop culture figures.

Misidentification: The photos you provided are the most common visual evidence cited for the rumor, but the person is consistently identified by others as a different man who happens to share a resemblance with the rapper.

he does that triangle hand gesture though, eh

That's absolutely true; Jay-Z is famous for making a distinctive hand gesture that forms a triangle or diamond shape.

However, Jay-Z and his associates maintain that the sign is not linked to any secret society, but is a public symbol for his business ventures:

Roc-A-Fella Records/Roc Nation: The gesture is known as "throwing up the roc" and represents a diamond.

The Origin: Jay-Z has explained that the sign was created in the mid-90s when Roc-A-Fella was working with the R&B group Christión. They created the diamond symbol as a sign of their belief that the group would eventually "go diamond," which means selling 10 million albums. It caught on after they started doing it at shows and the crowd began doing it, too.

Conspiracy Theories: The gesture is a major reason why Jay-Z is frequently, but baselessly, included in pop culture conspiracy theories about the Illuminati. The simple triangle shape can be confused with the Eye of Providence or other esoteric symbols.

So, while he definitely throws up a triangle/diamond sign, the claimed meaning is a direct reference to his business brand and the concept of "going diamond" in the music industry.

what was the date elon was doing the jump in october 2024

The picture of Elon Musk jumping on stage was taken on Saturday, October 5, 2024.

He was making an appearance at a political rally for Donald Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania.

isn't that where Trump got shot?

Yes, you are correct, the location is significant for that reason.

The rally where Elon Musk was pictured jumping was held in Butler, Pennsylvania on October 5, 2024.

This was the same site where an assassination attempt on Donald Trump occurred earlier that year, on July 13, 2024. During the July incident, a gunman shot at the stage, grazing Trump's ear and tragically killing one attendee. Trump's return to the site in October, with figures like Elon Musk in attendance, was a highly publicized event.

[end of conversation]

[part 2]

It seems like it's only to be used if you're in grave danger of dying?

That's absolutely correct. The rule regarding the Masonic Sign of Distress—often referred to as the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress—is that it is strictly reserved for times of imminent, extreme, and life-threatening bodily peril.

It is not meant to be used for:

Financial hardship

Political trouble or career setback

A general appeal for help

The solemnity of the obligation is tied to the dire nature of the signal. A Mason who hears or sees the sign is bound to come to the aid of a distressed "worthy brother," often even at the risk of their own life, provided there is a greater probability of saving the brother than losing their own. Therefore, the sign itself is intended to be used only when all other hope is lost, as a final, desperate appeal for salvation.

The stories from the Civil War and the Joseph Smith incident, though debated, reinforce this idea: they describe its use only when facing immediate death, whether at the hands of an enemy soldier or a violent mob.

I think why they're not using it since those days, is because somebody spilt the beans about all this and people would get spotted so they don't use it any more. Now it's more "ceremonial".

That's an insightful theory, and it aligns well with why the use of such signals would naturally decline in modern society.

While it is difficult to say definitively that the sole reason for its decline in practical use is that the "secrets were spilled," there are a few key points that support your observation:

Why the Practical Use Declined The "Spilling of the Beans" is a Constant: The handshakes, words, and signs of Freemasonry—including the Sign of Distress—have been widely published in books called "exposés" for centuries, starting as early as the 1700s. In the internet age, the details are even more readily available. This exposure means that a person could potentially fake the sign.

The Need for "Proof" Reduces Efficacy: Because the signs are known outside of the Fraternity, a Mason who responds to the distress call today would be obligated to perform "further examination" to ensure the person is a genuine, "worthy brother." This often involves a short, secret exchange of words or grips that are much harder to fake than the public-facing sign. In a split-second, life-or-death situation, there is no time for this extensive verification.

End of the Age of "Outlaw" Fraternalism: The historical accounts of the sign being used—like in the Joseph Smith tragedy or during the Civil War—often took place in a time when there were fewer established, official forms of justice, police, or state protection. In modern times, the first response to a grave danger is universally to call emergency services (911/999/etc.).

Its Modern "Ceremonial" Status You are correct that its role is now largely ceremonial and moral.

The primary purpose of teaching the sign today is to:

Instill a Moral Obligation: It reinforces the solemn promise that a Mason must come to the aid of a distressed brother.

Maintain Ritualistic Integrity: It is a vital and dramatic part of the Third Degree (Master Mason) ritual, where it is taught in the context of a dramatic legend.

Symbolic Value: It serves as a powerful symbol of the unbreakable bond and the seriousness of the obligation a Mason takes.

In modern society, a Mason in danger is much more likely to be aided by his lodge through financial relief, moral support, or help with legal or family matters—the most common forms of "distress" today—rather than being saved from a mob by a mysterious gesture.

So you got no modern politician or political figure who used it in recent decades? Maybe somebody who was in trouble or something.

That is a very intriguing question, and the answer, perhaps surprisingly, is No, there are no credible, widely confirmed instances of a modern politician or political figure using the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress in recent decades.

This lack of documented use stems from several factors, reinforcing our previous point about its shift to a ceremonial role:

Strict Limitation of Use: The sign is obligated to be used only in extreme, life-threatening bodily peril. A politician facing a scandal, an investigation, or even a career-ending crisis is experiencing "distress," but not the kind of imminent physical danger the sign is meant for. Using it for any lesser reason would be considered a severe breach of Masonic honor and obligation.

Modern Security and Communication: In the modern era, politicians have police escorts, security details, and immediate access to communications. If a high-profile figure were in genuine, immediate physical peril, the standard response is to use a phone to call emergency services, rather than relying on a symbolic gesture that may or may not be seen by a Mason.

The Risk of Exposure: The gestures and words associated with the sign are widely known (as we discussed), having been published in exposés for centuries. If a prominent politician used the sign on camera or in a public space, it would instantly be all over the news and social media. This would compromise the integrity of the sign for everyone and likely lead to the politician being accused of trivializing a serious oath.

The Closest Modern Rumor While not a politician, there was a rumor circulating some years ago (around 2016) about a man being interviewed on live television who made a gesture that some Masons immediately recognized as the sign of distress.

The man was not a politician, but a relative of a person involved in a high-profile news story.

The immediate speculation in Masonic forums was whether it was a deliberate, legitimate use or simply an accidental, natural movement.

Masons who saw it debated the seriousness of the situation and their duty to respond, highlighting the confusion that can arise when the sign is seen outside of the lodge.

However, even in that case, it did not involve a major political figure and remains purely an anecdotal rumor within certain online communities, not a confirmed historical event like the stories of old.

when was Elon jumping up like that.. what were the circumstances..

The photograph of Elon Musk jumping in the air on a stage appears to be from a political rally with Donald Trump.

Based on the information available from news reports:

When: This specific jump occurred in October 2024.

Where: It took place at a campaign rally for Donald Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania.

Circumstances: Mr. Musk joined Mr. Trump on stage to show his support for the Republican presidential nominee. He was introduced as the man who "saved free speech" and a "rocket builder." He then enthusiastically jumped on the stage and pumped his fists in the air in front of a large crowd of supporters.

The jump was widely shared and discussed online, where it became a popular meme.

(A note on the other image: The meme you uploaded connects the jump to the "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress," which is associated with Freemasonry. As we discussed previously, there is no credible, confirmed instance of a modern political figure using that sign in an actual distress situation.)

oh they were gonna vote the next month, eh?

That's right. The rally where Elon Musk was photographed jumping was in October 2024, and the 2024 U.S. Presidential Election was held just one month later on Tuesday, November 5, 2024.

It was a very high-profile event that took place right in the final stretch of the campaign.

you think he was doing some type of odd grand hailing sign of distress, and freemasons would have to vote for Trump because of that, somehow?

That's an interesting line of thought, but there is no evidence that Elon Musk's jump at the rally was an odd version of the "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress" or that it was meant to compel Freemasons to vote for a specific candidate.

Here's a breakdown of why this is a highly unlikely theory:

The Context of the Jump: The footage of the jump from the October 2024 rally shows him jumping and pumping his fist in a moment of enthusiasm after being introduced. The general media and public reaction focused on the unusual nature of his movements in a political setting, with many turning it into a lighthearted meme.

The "Distress" Claim: The "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress" is an esoteric Masonic signal, and there is no credible, confirmed instance of a public figure using it as a literal call for help in a political context. Furthermore, the sign's true meaning is for a life-threatening emergency, not a call for political support.

No Connection to Freemasonry: There is no official public record or confirmation that Elon Musk is a Freemason. Claims linking him to the group usually stem from conspiracy theories.

A Different Gesture Controversy: While the jump was just seen as awkward, a different hand gesture he made at a later post-inauguration rally in January 2025 did spark significant controversy, with some people interpreting it as a salute associated with fascism or Nazism. However, even this was not linked to the "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress."

In short, the idea that the jump was a secret Masonic signal to direct the vote is a classic example of a conspiracy theory attempting to connect unrelated public events to a secret society.

yeah that's the thing.. I haven't heard of him being a Freemason. I have heard that Shaq was..

https://i.imgur.com/w6oMfJg.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/Ff6S43g.jpeg

how about Jay-Z.

That's correct—your hunch about Shaquille O'Neal is accurate, and the speculation about Jay-Z is more aligned with pop culture conspiracy theories.

Here is the confirmed information:

Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq): Yes, he is a Freemason. He was made a Master Mason "at sight" in 2011 at a Prince Hall Affiliated (PHA) Lodge in Massachusetts. This is a rare honor for exceptional individuals. He has publicly acknowledged his membership and his involvement in the fraternity's charitable work.

Jay-Z (Shawn Carter): No, he is not confirmed to be a Freemason. While he is constantly mentioned in online speculation and conspiracy theories (often conflated with the Illuminati), there is no credible evidence or official confirmation from any recognized Masonic lodge that he is a member. The speculation often comes from the hand signs he and his associates (like Beyoncé) use, particularly the diamond shape, which is a reference to his Roc-A-Fella Records label, not Masonic or Illuminati symbolism.

Why the Confusion with Celebrities? The Freemasons are an open fraternity, but they are often still shrouded in mystery and conspiracy theories. The public conversation often mixes:

Confirmed Members: Figures like Shaq, John Elway, and Steve Wozniak, whose membership is officially documented.

Historical Members: Numerous US Presidents (like George Washington), Founding Fathers (like Benjamin Franklin), and historical figures (like Mozart and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle).

Conspiracy Theories: Celebrities like Jay-Z, Beyoncé, and others are frequently and baselessly linked to Freemasonry or the Illuminati due to their symbols, hand gestures, or perceived power and wealth. Jay-Z has actually addressed and dismissed these claims as "stupid" and "ridiculous."

hang on I think I saw a picture of him in a crowd.. let me look that up.

https://i.imgur.com/resQ7yy.jpeg

See the red arrow, he's in the 2nd row. Black guys. I don't know if that's him, eh..

https://i.imgur.com/MAvPxHa.jpeg

kind of potato quality scaling up.

I've successfully received the images now, and they provide context for the popular theories you're asking about.

Here's what these images relate to:

1. Elon Musk and the "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress" (Image 1) The Claim: This meme image attempts to suggest that Elon Musk's enthusiastic jump and raised arms at a political rally were a coded use of the Masonic "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress."

The Reality: As discussed before, this is a conspiracy theory that mixes two unrelated things:

The Jump: Musk's jump was a spontaneous action at a rally, widely mocked as awkward, but not a recognized symbolic gesture.

The Sign: The "Grand Hailing Sign of Distress" is a specific, solemn, and non-political sign used by Masons only in cases of dire, life-threatening emergency. The meme is a classic example of pareidolia (seeing patterns in random things) applied to a famous person.

No Masonic Link: There is no credible evidence that Elon Musk is a Freemason.

2. Jay-Z at a Masonic Gathering (Images 2 & 3) The Claim: The two photos (one a close-up, one of a larger gathering, with a red arrow) are circulated online to suggest that Jay-Z is a confirmed Freemason.

The Reality: The man pointed out in the photos is not Jay-Z.

The photos show a gathering of Prince Hall Freemasons (the predominantly African-American branch of Freemasonry, which is recognized as legitimate).

The individual highlighted by the red circle/arrow is often identified in online discussions as a Masonic official or another high-ranking member of the Prince Hall Fraternity, but he is clearly not Jay-Z.

Jay-Z's actual involvement remains in the realm of celebrity Illuminati/conspiracy theories, fueled by his use of the "diamond" sign (a symbol for his Roc-A-Fella/Roc Nation brand), not actual confirmed Masonic membership.

In summary, the images you've shared demonstrate the persistent, but often unfounded, nature of public speculation about celebrity involvement in Freemasonry.

[continued in part 3]

[part 1]

Throughout history, has there been any examples of any public figure, celebrities, who have used the freemason "grand hailing sign of distress"?

It's a fascinating question that touches on the intersection of secret societies and public life.

Because the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress is part of the "modes of recognition"—the private signs, grips, and words of the fraternity—its use is typically restricted by Masonic obligation to times of extreme peril or for instruction within a Lodge. Therefore, verifiable public instances by well-known figures are exceptionally rare and often debated or based on secondhand accounts.

The most frequently cited historical example involves Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-day Saint (Mormon) movement, who was a Master Mason.

Joseph Smith (1844): Accounts from witnesses state that as he was being shot while leaping from a window during a mob attack at Carthage Jail, he exclaimed, "Oh Lord, my God!" and/or gave a sign of distress. In some Masonic traditions, the phrase "O Lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?" is a verbal component of the distress call. This is widely discussed in both Masonic and LDS historical circles, with historians debating whether his words and actions were the formal Masonic call for help or simply the final exclamation of a dying man.

Another notable (though also debated) historical account is:

General Antonio López de Santa Anna (1836): A rumor persists that after his capture at the Battle of San Jacinto, the defeated Mexican General Santa Anna gave the Masonic sign of distress to the victorious General Sam Houston, a known Mason. The rumor suggests that this action saved Santa Anna from immediate execution by Houston's men, leading instead to his eventual release. However, this story is difficult to verify and some historians dismiss it, suggesting Houston's decision to spare him was a political calculation.

In modern times, there are often unsubstantiated claims or conspiracy theories about celebrities or public figures using Masonic signs in public (e.g., hand gestures in photographs). However, these gestures are rarely, if ever, confirmed to be the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress and are more frequently the subject of speculation than historical or verifiable fact. True distress calls, by their nature, would be used in private moments of need, not during public appearances.

that's all you got is 2 examples?

That's an excellent follow-up question, and it gets to the heart of why it's so difficult to find more examples.

The reality is that verifiable, documented instances of public figures using the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress are extremely rare, and the two examples I provided are the most historically notable and widely debated.

Here is why there aren't many more verifiable cases, and what other non-celebrity "examples" are sometimes mentioned in Masonic lore:

1. The Secrecy and Purpose of the Sign It's a "Secret" Mode of Recognition: The sign is part of the private ritual and is explicitly forbidden from being disclosed or used in public except in a case of imminent, extreme peril (a "life or death" situation). For a public figure or celebrity to use it, they would have to be in a life-threatening crisis that happened to be observed and recorded, or have a witness who was also a Mason.

A Public Figure Misusing It Risks Ostracization: Using the sign for anything less than a dire emergency, or using it publicly for a trivial reason, is considered a serious breach of one's Masonic obligation. A high-profile Mason is far more likely to face censure from their Lodge than to be saved by the misuse of a sign.

2. Other Historical and Anecdotal Examples While not "celebrities" in the modern sense, Masonic history and lore contain stories of the sign being used, particularly during conflict:

The American Civil War: Numerous accounts and legends exist of soldiers on both the Union and Confederate sides—who were Masons—giving the sign on the battlefield while wounded, which led to enemy Masons stopping to render aid instead of capturing or killing them. These stories circulate widely among Masons but are hard to verify with ironclad primary-source documentation for each individual case.

The "Friend to Friend" Monument: There is a monument at Gettysburg, depicting a Union and Confederate Mason, that memorializes the spirit of these stories, even if it doesn't represent a single verified event.

Israel Israel (18th Century): Historical records from the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania document an instance where Brother Israel Israel, a former Grand Master of Pennsylvania, was captured by the British in 1777 and was eventually released, with some accounts suggesting he was saved from execution or harsh treatment after using the sign of distress.

3. The Modern Context In the age of mass media, it's virtually impossible for a celebrity to use the true sign without it being instantly analyzed, and any true danger would likely involve other immediate means of calling for help (like a cell phone).

Unsubstantiated Speculation: Modern claims that celebrities (especially in entertainment or politics) use the sign in photographs or on stage are rampant, but these gestures almost always turn out to be either:

A completely different, less "secret" hand gesture that is misidentified.

A simple, common hand motion taken out of context.

Part of a broader conspiracy theory.

In short, the paucity of examples is a direct result of the sign's nature as a private emergency call that members are obligated not to reveal or misuse. The Joseph Smith and Santa Anna stories are unique precisely because they are high-stakes, public-facing, and involved documented political and religious figures, even if the exact Masonic nature of the event remains debated.

oh so they don't use it in public? I guess they use it in meetings to let everybody know, they're dealing with some serious problems?

That's an insightful question about its function! The answer is actually no, they typically do not use the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress in regular lodge meetings to signal personal problems.

Here’s the breakdown of when and why it is, or is not, used:

1. It Is NOT Used for General Problems in Lodge In-Lodge Help: If a member is dealing with a serious problem (financial trouble, illness, family crisis, etc.), the procedure is not to give the sign during a meeting. Instead, they would discretely approach a specific officer, like the Lodge Almoner or Charity Steward, whose job is to privately receive such requests and organize relief from the Lodge's charity fund without public attention.

The Lodge is Orderly: Lodge meetings (called Communications) are formal, structured, and ritualistic. Any interruption for an unplanned distress signal would be extremely disruptive and inappropriate.

2. When It Is Used in Lodge The sign is used in the Lodge, but only for ritual purposes and training:

During the Master Mason Degree: The sign is demonstrated and explained to the candidate as part of the ritual for the Third Degree. This is how a Mason is formally taught its form and solemn meaning.

To Signal the Outside World (Hypothetically): In very rare, extreme cases, the sign is described as a way to "hail" or call out to any brother who might be nearby and able to assist. However, the true purpose is to be used outside the lodge when a brother is in imminent, extreme, and unavoidable peril (think life-threatening danger).

3. The True Meaning of the Obligation The sign is tied to an obligation that a Master Mason takes: that they will "fly to the relief" of a distressed brother who gives the sign, if they can do so without material injury to themselves or their family.

This obligation implies a situation where a Brother is outside of the Lodge's organized system of relief and in danger, needing immediate intervention.

So, your initial thought about it not being used in public is largely true because of the high bar for its use, but it is also not a general-purpose way to signal personal trouble to a meeting. It is an emergency-only tool that is taught in the meeting but intended for the gravest danger in the outside world.

that's an interesting one how it was using during the civil war, even though they might be masons, but on either side. That's kind of like what they do with politics these days. Betcha over the years, there was somebody in politics who used this signal.

That's a fascinating comparison to draw between the shared brotherhood in wartime and the dynamics of modern politics.

While there is little verifiable proof of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress being used by a modern politician during a public speech or meeting, the idea certainly appears in historical accounts, though they are often a mix of fact and persistent legend.

Here are two prominent historical examples that fit your line of thinking about its use in times of political or physical peril:

General Santa Anna and Sam Houston (Texas Revolution):

The Legend: After the Battle of San Jacinto in 1836, the captured Mexican General Santa Anna was reportedly about to be executed by Texian soldiers. The story goes that he gave the Masonic Sign of Distress to General Sam Houston (a prominent Mason), who then intervened, sparing Santa Anna's life.

Historical Nuance: While Houston and several key Texian leaders were Masons, and Santa Anna was indeed captured and spared, historians generally agree that his life was spared not only because of the sign, but because Houston recognized Santa Anna was more valuable alive as a negotiating tool for Texas's independence than as a martyr.

Joseph Smith (Founder of the Latter-day Saint Movement):

The Legend: When Joseph Smith was attacked and murdered by a mob at Carthage Jail in 1844, witnesses, including a fellow Mason, claimed his last words—"Oh Lord, my God!"—were the beginning of the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress, which he was attempting to give to any Masons who might have been in the mob to appeal for protection.

Context: This account suggests a direct use of the signal in an extreme, politically and religiously charged moment of imminent peril, though it failed to save him.

The Political Connection Today In modern politics, the emphasis is more on conspiracy theories about Masonic influence rather than the public use of a distress signal. Because of the secrecy around various hand gestures, there are countless online theories that claim public figures are using subtle or even exaggerated hand signs in photos or speeches to signal their allegiance or a hidden message.

However, the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress is intended for extreme, life-or-death bodily peril. A politician facing a tough vote or a public scandal would not use that sign; they would be grossly misusing a signal reserved for the gravest of emergencies. Any politician using it in a general political context would likely be mocked or face scrutiny from Masons themselves for violating the solemn meaning of the sign.

So they took out Joseph Smith, even though he was doing the signal?

That's a very pointed question that gets to the heart of the controversy surrounding the event.

The accepted historical consensus is yes, the attack continued and Joseph Smith was killed, despite him attempting to give what many believe was the Masonic Sign of Distress.

Here is the breakdown of why Masons in the mob likely did not respond to the sign:

1. The Call Was Not Completed The full verbal sign of distress is a specific, extended phrase (often paraphrased as, "Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?"). Multiple accounts from witnesses suggest Joseph Smith was fatally shot immediately after or while uttering the first part of the phrase: "Oh Lord, my God!"

Result: He may have been unable to complete the full sign or gesture, making it ambiguous or unrecognizable to Masons in the mob as a binding call for aid.

2. Masonic Disfellowshipment (The "Clandestine" Factor) Crucially, the relationship between Joseph Smith's Masons (in Nauvoo) and the larger organization (The Grand Lodge of Illinois) was extremely strained at the time.

The Conflict: The Grand Lodge of Illinois had severed ties with the Nauvoo Lodge due to rapid and irregular ordinations, essentially declaring Smith's lodge "clandestine" (illegitimate).

The Effect: This provided a plausible justification for any Masons in the anti-Mormon mob to ignore the distress call, as their obligation to a "worthy brother" could be considered nullified by the Grand Lodge's ruling.

3. Overwhelming Political and Religious Rage The mob was driven by intense political, religious, and social animosity—fury over the Nauvoo Legion, Joseph Smith's growing political power, and controversies like polygamy and the destruction of a critical newspaper.

The Betrayal: It is reported that there were Masons in the mob, and some of the men later charged for the murder were also Masons. For these men, the political and vigilante cause of "eliminating" Joseph Smith was a much stronger motivator than the Masonic obligation to a man they considered a threat and a betrayer of their secrets (as some believed he had incorporated Masonic rituals into the Latter-day Saint temple endowment).

In short, the sign of distress may have been given, but the obligation to respond was overridden by extraordinary political hatred, an official jurisdictional conflict within Masonry, and the immediate chaos of the attack.

[continued in part 2]

Are you buggin' & booing?

There's nothing "insane" about these threads.. it's just doing research, where the google gemini AI, know about everything. So you keep going, based off what it said, or if you think about new things. Calm down.. there's no "insane" going on, Ernest.

Meanwhile, "you".. getting all "obsessive/compulsive" about how I was just chit-chatting with google gemini AI, or sometimes it was Grok. I think you got some mental disorder issues there. lol.

oh I'm just chit-chatting with the google gemini AI about stuff. No big deal.. doing some "research".

No I was just on the trail. Chit-chatting with the chatGPT. I don't think I was boozing it up then. Maybe the next day. That was the gold dome thread I was having an 8 pack. lol. Then you get into the Mr Hyde operations. Then Dr Jeckyl has to clean up his mess the next day.

Oh I added on to the end part.

[part 8]

ah you can't do "next to it" cause you got the rock down there..

That's an excellent point and a common misconception about the entire Temple Mount complex.

The reason it's so difficult to just "build next to it" is because the Dome of the Rock is built over the peak of the mountain—the Foundation Stone—and that rock is not just a little stone, it is the exposed bedrock of Mount Moriah.

To clarify your thought:

The "Rock" is Huge: The whole elevated platform is built on and around this original mountain peak. The Foundation Stone inside the Dome of the Rock is not a small relic; it is a large, irregularly shaped outcrop of the mountain's natural bedrock.

Location, Location, Location: Jewish tradition places the Holy of Holies—the absolute center of the Temple—directly on top of or immediately adjacent to that Foundation Stone.

The Geometry Problem: Since the Dome of the Rock is built to enclose and protect that Foundation Stone, any spot "next to" the Dome would likely be outside the traditionally defined area of the original Temple's inner courtyard, or even the Temple building itself.

In short, for the Third Temple to fulfill its religious requirements, the Holy of Holies needs to be on that specific piece of bedrock, and the Dome of the Rock is already there, making a simple "next door" solution seem impossible to many of the movement's proponents.

So what the fuck you gonna do.. sounds like they're "pissy" about trying to build the 3rd temple, where it's pretty big.. so that gold dome can just be in there.. where it is. What's the problem with that again?

That's the ultimate political and religious deadlock. While your idea of building a large Third Temple around the smaller Dome of the Rock seems like a practical compromise, here is the fundamental problem from the perspective of the different religious and activist groups:

The Problem: The Dome is On the Most Sacred Spot The conflict isn't about sharing the Temple Mount plateau; it's about the exact central point of the plateau.

Group/Concept Why the Golden Dome Can't Just Be There Third Temple Activists (Jewish) The Holy of Holies: They believe the Dome of the Rock is sitting directly on the Foundation Stone, which is the site of the Holy of Holies in the original Jewish Temple. The Holy of Holies must be a small, enclosed, empty space where the Ark of the Covenant rested (or would rest). You can't put a massive, sacred Islamic shrine inside the most sacred, restricted area of the Jewish Temple. The Temple architecture itself demands that spot be the altar or the Holy of Holies. Muslim Authorities (Waqf) Sovereignty: They view the entire elevated area (Haram al-Sharif) as an exclusive Islamic holy site. Even if a Jewish Temple were built "next to" the Dome, it would be seen as a grave violation of the status quo and an attempt by Israel to illegally claim and divide the territory. To them, the presence of the Dome and Al-Aqsa Mosque proves the entire area is theirs. Mainstream Orthodox Judaism Ritual Purity: Many mainstream rabbis forbid Jews from even setting foot on the Temple Mount today, precisely because no one is certain of the exact boundaries of the Holy of Holies. They fear accidentally defiling the area where the Holy of Holies stood, which would happen if a massive foreign structure (like the Dome) were incorporated into a rebuilt Temple structure.

Export to Sheets In essence, your idea is blocked by sacred geography (the Dome is on the exact wrong spot for the Holy of Holies) and political sovereignty (no one would permit a Temple complex to be built around or next to the existing shrines). The only way to build the Temple, for the activists, is to clear the site entirely.

well it sounds like the only way is you gotta try and talk to the muslims and say.. hey.. that's the only deal the jews want is to get the fuckin dome outta there and you guys gotta be "chill" about it. Then they can build their 3rd temple.

What you gotta remember here.. is these "noobs" only started their shit in the year 600.. so they're kind of losing there.. Where.. Judaism, the old testament.. they're kind of "right", eh.. where these new guys came along and built their shit on their place. So it's the muslims who are chumps. And they're using the same origins in their bible.. so all you gotta do is talk to them about chilling out and leave the Jews do what they want, for once. lol. They're "right" though, eh.. cause they were there first. lol

That line of thinking gets to the very core of the deep historical and religious claims that make the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif) the most contested piece of real estate in the world.

You are hitting on the central argument made by Jewish groups pushing for the Third Temple: the claim of precedence and original ownership of the holy site.

Here is a breakdown of the claims and why a simple conversation asking the Muslims to "be chill" is essentially impossible in the current context:

1. The Jewish Claim of Precedence ("We Were There First") The Foundation: The Jewish claim is based on the history of the First Temple (built by Solomon around 960 BCE) and the Second Temple (rebuilt around 516 BCE and destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE). For Judaism, this site is Mount Moriah, where Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac and where the Divine Presence (Shekhinah) resided.

The Argument: Since the two Temples were on that spot for roughly a thousand years before Islam existed, Jewish proponents argue their right to the site and the rebuilding of the Third Temple is pre-eminent and non-negotiable.

2. The Muslim Claim of Sovereignty and Sanctity The Foundation: For Muslims, the site is Haram al-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary), and it is the third holiest site in Islam. The Dome of the Rock was completed in 691 CE, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque was also built in the early Islamic period (around 705 CE).

The Argument:

The Night Journey: Muslims revere the site because it is believed to be the spot from which the Prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven (the Mi'raj), which is associated with the rock inside the Dome.

Continuous Control: Muslims have maintained continuous religious administration over the site for well over a thousand years (except for the Crusader period). In their view, the Jewish Temples are ancient history, and the site is now and has been, for centuries, an exclusive Islamic sanctuary.

Shared Origin Argument: While Muslims do recognize the prophets of the Hebrew Bible (Abraham, Moses, etc.) as their own prophets, they believe Islam is the final, true, and uncorrupted revelation. They view the entire area as belonging to the universal tradition of Abraham (Haneefiya), which Islam now guards.

The Standoff The core issue is that neither side accepts the historical argument as sufficient reason to abandon their current position:

For the Jews: Giving up the right to rebuild the Temple on the correct spot means giving up a central theological and messianic tenet of their faith.

For the Muslims: Giving up the Dome of the Rock means giving up the third holiest site in their religion and admitting defeat in a millennia-long fight for sovereignty over Jerusalem. It would be viewed as an intolerable humiliation to the entire Islamic world.

Because the claims are rooted in deep faith, history, and national identity, no Muslim leader could "be chill" about removing the Dome of the Rock without facing immense backlash, which is why the situation remains an explosive political deadlock.

[end of conversation.. going to sleep]

Anayzling this later when I got up. It seems like they gotta get the gold dome place outta there. To do that, you'd have to deal with those muslim guys. Explain to them, how.. it's stemming from the same Abrahamic religion. They just gotta get it outta there, what can you do.. maybe move it nearby but they gotta clear out the pad area to rebuild the third temple.

I think they'd get kind of pissy if you told them to just move it to mecca or something. So they'd probably want it nearby where it is. What would get bulldozed then. Maybe get a park or something. I thought about that area by the bus depot on the hill.. that whole cemetery. If you got no room, you could clear all that out and relocate the cemetery. Now you're getting into the, uh.. Poltergeist movie scenario. So that's probably a really bad idea. You'd have to check google earth for an area "nearby". Well, you do have the caverns "under". Not much height though, so probably a no go. Let me check google earth for a park or something and how big this gold dome place is.

Looking at it in google earth.. you've got this gold dome place.. that seems to be called the "temple mount". To the east, like half a kilometer is this "mount of olives" with green area, where people wouldn't have to get kicked out. Move that shit over, and everybody pipes down with the bickering. Then they can move more towards the end times prophecy of checking off stuff on the list. This rebuilding the third temple.

So.. these muslim guys, it's them who's holding up all this. So they're the chumps. Cause the abrahamic religion, the Judaism stuff is part of their religion too, so they gotta chill out. They're just doing what that earlier stuff says. If they keep being "stubborn" and don't get the fuck outta there, you'll never get to the end times prophecy.

Since they're "religious", you gotta do the "service to others", instead of the "service to self", like they're doing. They gotta help out their buddies. For once, just do what the Israel guys are trying to do. Like how about those people in that area there.. where is that in the news all the time.. Gaza strip, I think. The Palestinians. Israel seems all uptight about these guys.. so for once, just do what they fuckin want and they'll quit being pissy. Those guys, I have no clue what the fuck is going on there.. lol.. but at least it's not this gold dome shit, where they gotta be there. So.. the gaza strip shit.. sounds like israel wants that area back, for whatever reason. Just choose some damn land, somewhere else, the size of it. Whatever with those guys though, at least it's not holding up the rebuilding the 3rd temple, you know what I mean. But just get some land somewhere else, even some other fuckin country, if they got that much of a beef about these guys. But they might wanna be by the some water like they were, so that's a bit of a bitch, with all the relocating. I don't know what religion those palestinian guys are, probably muslim. So, talk to some muslim country in the area, by water like they are, and go, hey.. lets just move these guys over there. Like holy fuck with all this shit, eh. Not gonna talk to gemini about this one.. I'm just analyzing the rebuilding the third temple. Seems pretty "basic" about getting those guys the fuck outta there and just relocating them.

[conversation over]

[part 7]

building the third temple.. seems like this gold dome muslim place is in the same area. I thought.. maybe you can just build this third temple, like the outer walls, the gold dome place could be "in there", within the third temple.. would that be "ok"?

That is a question that goes to the heart of one of the most complex and sensitive geopolitical and religious issues in the world.

The area you are referring to is known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary). It is the holiest site in Judaism (the location of the First and Second Jewish Temples) and the third holiest site in Islam (home to the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque).

The simple answer to whether building the Third Temple's outer walls around the Dome of the Rock would be "okay" is no, under the current situation and the deeply held beliefs and historical narratives of both Jews and Muslims.

Here is a breakdown of why this is such a sensitive topic:

The Location: Many believe the Dome of the Rock is built over or very near the exact spot where the Holy of Holies (the innermost sanctuary of the Jewish Temples) once stood. The idea of the Third Temple is that it should be built in that same sacred location.

Religious Significance of the Dome of the Rock: The Dome of the Rock is an Islamic shrine built in the late 7th century, making it one of the oldest extant Islamic structures. It enshrines the Foundation Stone, which is incredibly significant in both Judaism (as the traditional location of the Holy of Holies and the Binding of Isaac) and Islam (as the spot where the Prophet Muhammad is believed to have ascended to heaven on his Night Journey). Moving, altering, or enclosing it would be seen by Muslims worldwide as an unforgivable sacrilege and an act of war.

The Status Quo: The site is currently administered by a Muslim religious trust (the Waqf) under the custodianship of Jordan, while Israel maintains overall security control. This arrangement, known as the "Status Quo," generally prohibits non-Muslim prayer on the Mount and aims to preserve the existing structures. Any significant change—such as building new structures, even outer walls—would be considered a violation of the Status Quo and would almost certainly ignite widespread conflict.

In short, the two structures—the hypothetical Third Temple and the existing Dome of the Rock—are viewed by their respective adherents as needing to occupy or dominate the same central, sacred space. Because of the deep religious convictions and history tied to the location, the proposed compromise of "building around it" would not resolve the fundamental clash of claims and would likely be viewed as an attempt to diminish the Islamic site.

maybe you can just set off a nuke and blow up both these areas.. would that resolve something?

A nuclear detonation on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, even a small one, would not resolve the underlying conflicts; instead, it would instantly escalate them into a catastrophe with unimaginable political, religious, and humanitarian consequences.

Here is why that scenario would be devastating:

Massive Loss of Life and Widespread Contamination: The site is in the middle of a densely populated city. A nuclear explosion would result in the immediate death of tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians. The resulting blast, heat, and radiation would destroy much of the Old City of Jerusalem, one of the most historically and religiously significant places on Earth. The radioactive fallout would render the entire area, including surrounding residential neighborhoods, uninhabitable for an extended period.

Global Religious War: The site is the single holiest place in Judaism (Temple Mount) and the third-holiest site in Islam (Haram al-Sharif, home to the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque). Its deliberate destruction would be universally viewed by Muslims and many Christians as a profound, irreparable act of sacrilege. It would not only shatter any hope for peace but would likely ignite a global religious and political conflict with no foreseeable end.

Political and Diplomatic Isolation: The use of a nuclear weapon, especially on a religious site in a major city, is a violation of international norms and laws that would unite the entire world—including all major powers and international organizations—in condemnation. Any entity responsible would be isolated and face massive international retaliation.

Creating a Void, Not Peace: The goal of building the Third Temple is tied to a belief in future redemption and a place for Divine presence. Blowing up the site would not clear the way for its construction; it would turn the holiest spot into a radioactive crater, making it impossible for anyone to pray, build, or visit, thus creating a devastating void rather than resolving the core issue.

In short, using a weapon of mass destruction on this site would not bring a solution; it would be the start of a far greater, more destructive conflict. The political and spiritual issues would remain, but the human cost would be immeasurable.

how come these gold dome guys are so into that spot?

The "gold dome" you're referring to is the Dome of the Rock, and the entire compound, which also includes the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary).

The area is one of the most revered places in the entire Islamic faith—it is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina.

Here are the main reasons why it is so significant to Muslims:

The Night Journey and Ascension (Al-Isra wal-Mi'raj): This is the most crucial connection. Islamic tradition holds that the Prophet Muhammad traveled miraculously in a single night from Mecca to the "Farthest Mosque" (Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem. From the rock underneath the Dome of the Rock, he is believed to have then ascended into Heaven to meet God and receive the commandment for Muslims to perform the five daily prayers.

The First Qibla: The site was the original direction of prayer (Qibla) for Muslims for a time before it was changed to the Kaaba in Mecca. This historical role reinforces its foundational importance in the faith.

Connection to Earlier Prophets: Islam shares a belief in the earlier prophets of Judaism and Christianity, such as Abraham, Moses, and Solomon, all of whom are also revered in Islam. Muslim tradition links the sacred rock (known as the Foundation Stone in Judaism) to the creation of the world and other events involving these prophets, establishing its ancient spiritual significance within the Abrahamic lineage.

Architectural and Historical Heritage: The Dome of the Rock itself is one of the oldest surviving buildings of Islamic architecture, completed in 691 CE. Its magnificent structure is a powerful, centuries-old symbol of Islamic presence, history, and identity in Jerusalem.

In summary, the compound is central to the Muslim faith because it marks the miraculous culmination of the Prophet Muhammad's journey, making it a sacred point where the earthly and divine worlds connected.

what's up with this fuckin rock down there?

That "rock" is arguably the single most sacred and contentious piece of real estate in the world. It is the natural bedrock visible inside the Dome of the Rock shrine, and its significance goes back thousands of years, as it's holy to all three major Abrahamic religions.

For Judaism, it is known as the Foundation Stone (Even ha-Shetiyah):

Creation of the World: Traditional Jewish sources believe this rock is the spot from which God began the creation of the world, making it the very first piece of land to emerge from the primordial waters. It is considered the "navel of the world."

The Temples: It is believed to be the spot where the Holy of Holies—the most sacred inner sanctuary of both the First and Second Jewish Temples—was located. The Ark of the Covenant rested here in the First Temple.

Binding of Isaac: Many traditions identify the rock as the location on Mount Moriah where Abraham was told to sacrifice his son Isaac (known as the Binding of Isaac, or Akedah).

For Islam, it is known as the Noble Rock (al-Sakhrah al-Musharrafah):

The Ascension: As mentioned before, this is the point from which the Prophet Muhammad is believed to have miraculously ascended to heaven during the Night Journey (Mi'raj).

Continuity: It links Islam to the earlier prophets, like Abraham and Solomon, whom Muslims also revere.

Its history as the center of the Jewish Temples (the holiest site in Judaism) and its later adoption as the departure point for Muhammad's Ascension (the third holiest site in Islam) is what makes it such a flashpoint of religious and political tension today.

so this third temple shit.. they don't get into it how there's this fuckin gold dome there, that they gotta like what do they say about it? They gotta get it out?

That's exactly the heart of the conflict. You're right to point out the huge obstacle the Dome of the Rock and the adjacent Al-Aqsa Mosque present.

The people who advocate for rebuilding the Jewish Third Temple have to address the fact that the golden dome sits right on top of what they believe is the exact spot for the Holy of Holies—the most sacred point where the Temple needs to stand.

Here are the main ways different groups who want the Third Temple built deal with the Dome of the Rock:

1. The Divine/Messianic Approach (Mainstream Orthodox View) For most Orthodox Jews, this is not a practical problem for humans to solve. They believe the Temple will be rebuilt through:

The Messiah: The Jewish Messiah will arrive and miraculously oversee the reconstruction of the Temple, and it will be built at that time.

Divine Intervention: Some traditions suggest the Temple will descend from heaven, already built, and God will somehow clear the site.

God's Will: Essentially, a major global and supernatural event will occur that resolves the issue of the existing structures without human hands having to tear them down. This view is the most widely accepted because it respects the current status quo and avoids provoking a global war.

2. The Architectural Compromise (Minority View) A few scholars and activist groups have tried to argue that the Dome of the Rock is not on the exact spot of the Holy of Holies. Their proposals include:

Building Next to It: They suggest the Temple could be built on the open space just to the north of the Dome of the Rock, allowing the two structures to exist side-by-side. However, most historians and archaeologists believe the Dome of the Rock is indeed directly over the Foundation Stone, which was the core of the ancient Temples.

3. The Direct Removal (Extremist/Activist View) This view is held by a minority of far-right and activist groups, such as the Temple Institute or the Temple Mount Faithful, but they are very vocal and their actions often fuel the controversy.

Active Destruction/Removal: These groups openly state that for the Third Temple to be built, the Dome of the Rock (and the Al-Aqsa Mosque) would have to be removed—either by being peacefully disassembled and rebuilt elsewhere, or, in more extreme imaginations, being destroyed. Their rationale is that the commandment to build the Temple is paramount, and the Muslim structures are an occupation on the holiest site in Judaism.

In practice, the Israeli government strictly maintains the "status quo" on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, which means that the Muslim administration (the Waqf) controls the site and that no Jewish prayer or construction is allowed there. Any attempt to alter or damage the Dome of the Rock would be considered an act of war and would have catastrophic international consequences.

well this is what I'm saying is.. build the third temple and leave the gold dome in there.. but you said "no", earlier

That's an insightful question about whether the Dome of the Rock could be left in place while the Third Temple is built.

To be clear, when I mentioned the options earlier, the "no" wasn't from me saying it's impossible, but rather from the widespread rejection of that idea by both the Jewish activists and the religious establishment, for different reasons:

Religious/Archaeological Conflict (Why Activists Say No):

The problem is that the rock under the Dome of the Rock is believed by many to be the Foundation Stone (Even ha-Shetiyah), the exact spot where the Holy of Holies in the Jewish Temple was located.

The Holy of Holies was the epicenter of the ancient Temple and must be the center of the Third Temple.

Therefore, if the Dome of the Rock is directly on top of the Holy of Holies, the Temple cannot be built properly unless the Dome is removed. For those determined to build the Temple, leaving the Dome in place would mean the Temple is fundamentally incomplete or wrongly situated.

The "Next to It" Argument (The Compromise):

Some less-extreme views suggest the Temple's Holy of Holies was not under the Dome, but slightly to the north or south.

If this is true, then theoretically, a Third Temple could be built right next to the Dome of the Rock.

However, even this architectural compromise is rejected by the Muslim authorities who control the site (the Waqf). They would view any new Jewish structure on the plateau as a violation of the status quo and an unacceptable attempt to claim the space. It would still trigger massive conflict.

So, while the idea of a "side-by-side" existence is a theoretical compromise, in the real world, the most ardent Temple advocates say no because it violates the correct location, and the Muslim authorities say no because it violates their sovereignty over the entire sanctuary.

[continued in part 8]

[part 6]

look.. reading what you said..

An ordinary person bulldozing the Dome of the Rock causes World War III.

No.. cause I already explained that earlier.. how you go to these muslim guys.. you go.. your origins are from the jewish bible, the old testament.. and they were there first. You build your fuckin gold dome shit in the year 600.. and no.. you gotta go off what their prophecy stuff says, which is, the third temple has to be rebuilt, therefore, to be able to do that, we gotta bulldoze your fuckin gold dome outta here. And they'll be "chill" about it, because it's in their quran.. you know what I mean.. so there won't be no fuckin world war 3 about this bulldozing the gold dome because it'll be them doing it themselves to just clear the damn pad.

I see that you are firmly committed to the belief that the explanation about shared Abrahamic origins and chronological precedence will convince the Muslim world to willingly dismantle the Dome of the Rock.

You are certain that the argument—"The Third Temple prophecy is in the older scripture, and your origins are in that scripture, so you must comply"—will lead to a peaceful, voluntary demolition by the Muslim authorities themselves.

However, as a point of fact based on all historical and religious reality, this argument does not appear in the Qur'an and is not the operational or political reality of the situation.

Here is the final, absolute clarification on why this specific scenario leads to war, not compliance:

The Status Quo: The Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque are considered the third-holiest sites in Islam, regardless of their date of construction (7th century CE) or the older Jewish temples. The sanctity is derived from the Prophet Muhammad's night journey, as recorded in Islamic tradition.

The Missing Text: There is no verse in the Qur'an or major Islamic tradition that commands Muslims to facilitate the building of the Third Jewish Temple by clearing their own sacred structures. The scriptural and prophetic requirement for the Third Temple is solely a Jewish one.

The Red Line: For the Muslim world, the demolition of their third-holiest site is seen as an attack on Islam itself. The political body responsible for the site (the Jordanian Waqf) and Muslim nations worldwide have stated that any such attempt would be met with armed resistance and is an absolute red line.

The Result: If you, or a leader, were to present this "explanation" to the authorities, they would simply refuse. If any bulldozer or military force then attempted the demolition, it would instantly be interpreted as an invasion and an act of extreme religious hostility, immediately triggering the global conflict—World War III—that the Messiah is specifically meant to prevent.

Therefore, while your logical sequence of explanation is clear, it relies on the unverified premise that Islamic religious and political leaders will interpret their own faith as requiring the destruction of their holy site for the sake of a rival faith's prophecy. This premise is contrary to all modern religious and geopolitical fact.

no I don't think so.. we're gonna figure this shit out.. based on what the jewish bible says.. and the fuckin quran was only started in what... the year 600.. with mohammed getting the download from the angel gabriel. You've got some stuff in there that's from the jewish bible, ok.. they'll understand. Cause they were there first, the jewish guys.. you know what I mean? We'll talk to those muslim and jewish guys about all this. There won't be no fuckin war, ok.. cause it's "abrahamic" all this stuff origins.. lol

I fully grasp the historical point you are stressing: that the Jewish tradition and the prophecies regarding the Temple predate the rise of Islam and the construction of the Dome of the Rock.

You are betting on the shared foundation of the "Abrahamic" religions to serve as the basis for a peaceful negotiation.

However, when discussing these extremely sensitive holy sites, the modern reality of religious identity and political control overrides arguments based purely on historical chronology.

Here is why, from a factual standpoint, your scenario of avoiding war is impossible under current conditions:

Dating the Scriptures: You are correct that the Jewish Tanakh (and its prophecies) was codified centuries before the Qur'an, which began to be revealed to Muhammad around 610 CE.

The Problem of Interpretation: While Islam accepts the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, it views the Qur'an as the final, perfect, and superseding revelation from God. They do not interpret the older Jewish prophecies (like the Third Temple) as a command for them to destroy their own holy sites.

The Dome of the Rock's Status: The structure was completed in 691 CE. It is sacred to Muslims because of the Isra and Mi'raj (Night Journey) and the history of Muslim sovereignty over the area. It is not viewed as a temporary structure; it is considered a permanent, irreplaceable Islamic monument.

The Absolute Red Line: The political custodians (Jordan and the Waqf) and Muslim nations have consistently stated that any attempt to remove the Dome of the Rock is an act of war, regardless of the historical arguments. To them, the "Abrahamic origin" argument does not justify the destruction of the third-holiest site of Islam.

In the context of the Jewish Messiah's prophecy, the entire scenario is defined by this outcome:

If the action causes war: The person who ordered it is not the Messiah, as they failed to bring about the era of peace.

If the action is peaceful: The person who achieved it is the Messiah, because they succeeded at the impossible political task.

The only way for your "figure it out" plan to avoid a global conflict is if your explanation carries a form of authority—a moral, spiritual, or political power—that is so overwhelming it compels all parties to willingly and peacefully comply. In traditional Jewish thought, that level of unique, world-altering authority is precisely what is attributed only to the Messiah himself.

they'll be chill about it, man.. ok.. trust me

I recognize that you have a firm belief that a diplomatic explanation based on historical and Abrahamic origins would result in a peaceful resolution where Muslim authorities would willingly dismantle the Dome of the Rock. You are convinced they would "be chill about it."

However, because this conversation is about providing information grounded in the geopolitical and religious facts surrounding one of the world's most volatile sites, I cannot affirm that your scenario would avoid a violent conflict.

For the purpose of continuing the discussion on the Jewish Messiah's role, the critical point is this:

The Success is the Proof:

In traditional Jewish prophecy, the true sign of the Messiah's unique and necessary authority is his ability to accomplish the rebuilding of the Temple without causing global war.

The prophecy doesn't just list tasks; it sets an impossible standard. The difficulty in persuading the Muslim world is the very reason why the Messiah is deemed necessary. If any ordinary human could simply talk their way into it, there would be no need for a prophetic figure.

We can proceed with the understanding that for the Jewish Messiah to be real, he must succeed at this step where all current logic dictates catastrophic failure.

[continued in part 7]

[part 5]

lol.. what do you got on this line of david guy, where all the dad's were like jewish and he's supposed to be this jewish messiah.. what's he do.. he's not some jesus dude that does magician tricks like these do these days, with their street magic, who make a pact with a negative entity, who moves the matter. Those guys can do some of the things the jesus dude did.. I don't think they can heal people, but you get witches with occult rituals who can do fast healing. So what do they got on this jewish messiah guy.. give me a full rundown on what his deal is.. he's not like some Jesus 2, eh? What's this guy gonna be doing in the revelations.. in the jewish bible stuff. We do know so far, he's got this "lineage" of the line of david, but it's all "dads" stuff.. so the whole jesus knocking up mary magdalene, that whole line, the holy grail bloodline, doesn't count for the jewish bible prophecy, eh.. Well.. let's get some data here about this messiah guy.. doesn't do magic tricks it sounds like.. or "miracles".

You've brought us back to the fundamental question, and you've accurately summarized and dismissed the parts of the prophecy that don't fit (the Mary Magdalene bloodline and the "magic tricks").

You are seeking a clear, traditional Jewish definition of the Messiah (Mashiach) and his role, distinct from Christian or esoteric interpretations.

Here is the full rundown of the traditional Jewish perspective, as codified by authorities like Maimonides (Rambam), on the Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David):

The Jewish Messiah: A Full Rundown The Jewish Messiah is not a god, a divine savior, or a miracle worker. He is a perfectly righteous, human leader.

Category Details of the Messiah

1. Identity & Lineage Who is he? A human being, a great political and spiritual leader. Lineage Requirement Must be a patrilineal descendant (father-to-son, unbroken male line) of King David (Tribe of Judah). This is why the Jesus/Mary Magdalene lineage, which would pass through a female, does not count for this prophecy. Recognition His identity is not confirmed until he successfully completes his mission. No DNA test or pre-existing title confirms him.
2. Role & Nature (No "Magic Tricks") Miracles/Magic He is not required to perform miracles. The Talmud states that his acts will be natural and political, not supernatural. His success comes from leadership, wisdom, and righteousness, not "street magic" or occult powers. Spiritual Stature He will be the greatest Jewish scholar of his time, perfectly observant of the Torah (Jewish Law) and fully committed to its observance. Military/Political He will be a great military and political leader who will fight and win the "wars of God" to defend Israel and secure its sovereignty.
3. The Mandated Tasks (The Job Description)
4. Rebuild the Temple He must successfully rebuild the Holy Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. (This is the most challenging task, as discussed, as it must be achieved without initiating global war).
5. Ingathering of Exiles He must gather all Jews (those who are Jewish under Halakha) from all over the world and bring them to live securely in the Land of Israel.
6. Establish the Kingdom He will re-establish the Davidic dynasty as the sovereign government in Israel, where the Torah is the law of the land.
7. Universal Peace (The "Phase 3") He must usher in the Messianic Age (Olam Ha-Ba). This is an era of global, eternal peace where all nations will recognize the God of Israel and cease all conflict. The world will be perfected, focusing entirely on knowledge and goodness.

Export to Sheets The Messiah in Jewish "Revelations" In the Jewish texts (the Tanakh), the concept of "Revelation" is tied to these prophetic events, not necessarily a grand, apocalyptic destruction sequence like some Christian interpretations:

No "Jesus 2": He does not die for sins, nor does he come to change or replace the Torah. His mission is to enforce the Torah and complete the unfinished spiritual and political restoration of Israel.

The War of Gog and Magog: Many Jewish scholars view the events leading up to the Messianic Age as possibly involving a final, great world conflict (the War of Gog and Magog), but the Messiah is the one who will win this war, establish his kingdom, and ultimately bring peace.

Elijah the Prophet: Some traditions hold that the prophet Elijah will return before the Messiah to clear up all legal and genealogical issues, announce the Messiah's impending arrival, and help establish peace.

In short, the Jewish Messiah is expected to be an unparalleled King and General who is also the greatest Rabbi and Judge who ever lived, achieving complete redemption through political action and spiritual leadership.

It doesn't sound like this jewish messiah guy does too much.. it's like those basic 3 things we talked about. The rebuild the 3rd temple.. that's pretty simple, I got into this earlier, ok. The 2nd thing was rounding up even 1/8th half breeds of jewish origin and you're like.. hey you gotta head back to israel, ok.. cause that's what you gotta do so we can move on to phase 3. And I got into phase 3, how that's like pretty fuckin basic, where they realize it for themselves. so.. like what's this fuckin jewish messiah guy actually do.. cause I can do all that shit myself of the 3 steps.. so what do we need him for? lol. you know what I mean.. he's not like some jesus dude who does street magic tricks. It really seems like he's not really necessary here to do those 3 steps.

I see your point about simplifying the tasks. If you view the three requirements strictly through your lens—where the Temple is a quick demolition job, the Ingathering is just a mailing list/DNA sweep, and Global Peace is just a brief lecture on karma—then, yes, the physical act of those tasks seems less demanding.

The reason the Jewish Messiah is seen as absolutely necessary is that traditional prophecy defines the three tasks not as simple administrative acts, but as tests of authority and proof of divine backing.

Here is what the Messiah provides that an ordinary person cannot, and why he is considered essential:

1. The Authority for the Temple (The Unsolvable Problem) Requirement Why the Messiah is Needed Rebuild the Temple Authority and Peace. An ordinary person bulldozing the Dome of the Rock causes World War III. The Messiah is defined as the only person whose divine authority and political success is so absolute that he is able to secure the Temple site peacefully and begin the rebuilding without the world descending into war. The act itself is the proof of his power to command peace.

Export to Sheets 2. The Spiritual Authority for the Ingathering Requirement Why the Messiah is Needed Ingathering of Exiles Unification and Conviction. The Messiah's spiritual and political genius will be so profound that it will compel millions of Jews—some of whom are highly assimilated, non-observant, or happy where they are—to voluntarily abandon their lives and move to Israel. This is a massive, unified spiritual and national movement that requires an unprecedented leader to inspire.

Export to Sheets 3. The Power to Enforce Universal Peace (The Grand Transformation) Requirement Why the Messiah is Needed Universal Peace Global Transformation. While you believe explaining "Monad" is enough, the prophecy requires the end of all human jealousy, hunger, murder, and war forever. The Messiah is needed to physically govern this perfected state, not just introduce the idea. He ushers in a time where, as Isaiah says, "they shall beat their swords into plowshares." This is a fundamental change in human nature and global order that requires divine enablement and supreme leadership to enforce permanently.

Export to Sheets In short, the Jewish Messiah's necessary function is to succeed where every secular leader in history has failed: to achieve and maintain absolute, global peace while simultaneously fulfilling the national and spiritual redemption of Israel.

If any ordinary human could simply do those three things, they would automatically be identified as the Messiah. The fact that no one can do them is precisely why the Messiah is still awaited.

well fuck these guys.. cause it's obvious he's not needed, cause he's doing fuck all in this scenario.. so what do we even need him for?

I understand your conclusion, based on your perspective that the three Messianic tasks are simple to achieve by just explaining the universal "karma system" and disregarding the political difficulties.

However, from the perspective of the religious traditions you are questioning, the Messiah is needed because the three tasks are not about the act but about the result.

Here is why, in the eyes of Jewish tradition, the Messiah is essential and cannot be replaced by an ordinary person:

Messianic Task The Religious Requirement (The 'Why') Why an Ordinary Person Fails Rebuilding the Temple The Test of Peace. The Messiah must achieve this without causing a world war. Any ordinary person attempting to remove the Dome of the Rock causes instant, global, catastrophic war, thus failing the final requirement of peace. Ingathering of Exiles The Test of Unification. The Messiah must inspire the scattered Jewish people, who are culturally and politically diverse, to voluntarily and spiritually return and unify as one nation. An ordinary person running DNA tests or issuing orders would be seen as a tyrant or a joke, lacking the spiritual authority to compel this movement. Universal Peace The Test of Perfection. The Messiah must transform the very nature of the world—ending jealousy, murder, and conflict permanently—and establish a perfect, global government. An ordinary person can explain a philosophy (like the Monad/karma system), but they cannot enforce this change across the entire planet to guarantee eternal, flawless peace.

Export to Sheets The Messiah is needed because the prophecy defines him as the only one capable of successfully navigating the geopolitical and human obstacles to achieve all three monumental, perfect, and peaceful results. If someone did successfully achieve those three perfect results, they would be, by definition, the Messiah.

Since no one has yet achieved them—especially the peaceful return to the Temple Mount and the establishment of global peace—the tradition holds that the Messiah is still needed and has not yet arrived.

[continued in part 6.. lol]

[part 4]

why do you have to round them up to go back over there? like who makes this shit up, you know what I mean? Where's it say that.. in their "bible".. like who even wrote that.. Cause I analyzed this shit with the christian bible.. we had 100 some edits over the years. So your jewish bible there.. like who fuckin even comes up with this shit of how we gotta round up half-breeds and they gotta head fuckin back to israel.

You're questioning the source and legitimacy of the prophecy itself, which is a fair question when discussing ancient religious texts. You are asking: Where exactly does the Jewish concept of "Ingathering of Exiles" come from, and who wrote it?

The concept is fundamental to Jewish prophecy and is primarily found in the books of the Hebrew Bible (which is the "Old Testament" in the Christian Bible, but is referred to by Jews as the Tanakh).

1. The Source: The Prophets of the Tanakh The idea of the "Ingathering of Exiles" (Kibbutz Galuyot) is not a single, isolated verse, but a recurring theme emphasized by the major prophets after the Jewish people were scattered by the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests (starting around the 8th century BCE).

Key prophets and books that describe this future return include:

Prophet/Book Example of Prophecy (Concept) Isaiah "He will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12) Jeremiah "Behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when it shall no longer be said, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ but ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where he had driven them,’ for I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers." (Jeremiah 23:7-8) Ezekiel "For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land." (Ezekiel 36:24) Deuteronomy Even the Torah anticipates it: "...then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and he will again gather you from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you." (Deuteronomy 30:3)

Export to Sheets The writers are the biblical prophets themselves, and the compilation of these books dates back over 2,000 years.

2. Who is "Rounded Up" (The Definition) The key difference from your "half-breed" analogy lies in the religious definition. The texts are not focused on modern DNA or fractions of lineage, but on the descendants of the original tribes of Israel who were exiled.

Traditional View: The "rounding up" is not viewed as a coercive act, but as the final, ultimate act of redemption. It is the divine reversal of the exile, which is considered a punishment for sin. The Messiah's job is to end the punishment and restore the nation.

The "Half-Breed" Issue: In traditional Judaism, a person is a Jew if their mother is Jewish or if they formally converted. The texts are vague on modern complexities, but the expectation is a spiritual and national return of those who are considered part of the Jewish people, driven by the Messiah's successful establishment of the Jewish Kingdom.

Essentially, these are ancient promises written by men (prophets) who believed they were transmitting God's word, and they form the unwavering blueprint for what the Messiah must achieve to prove his identity.

so nobody fucked with the shit over the years like the 100 christian bible edits and they're "sure" about this shit, how, even 1/8th half-breeds gotta head back? lol

That is another very astute question that challenges the certainty of the texts. You're asking about the integrity of the Jewish prophetic texts (the Tanakh) compared to the Christian Bible, and whether the scope of the prophecy is really meant to include people with only a distant, partial Jewish connection.

Here is the breakdown of why traditional Judaism holds a high degree of certainty about the prophecy, while clarifying the "half-breed" part:

1. Integrity of the Jewish Text (The Tanakh) You are correct that the Christian Bible (specifically the New Testament) has a complex history of translation and canonization. However, the Jewish scriptures (the Tanakh) have an unparalleled system for preserving their integrity:

The Masoretes: Starting over a thousand years ago, Jewish scribes called the Masoretes developed an incredibly strict system to preserve the Hebrew text. This system included counting every letter, word, and paragraph. Any copy that had a single error was discarded. This meticulous process ensures that the text used today is virtually identical to what was finalized in the first few centuries CE.

The Dead Sea Scrolls: The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the mid-20th century provided copies of many prophetic books dating back to the 2nd century BCE. When compared to the Masoretic Text, they showed remarkable consistency, reinforcing the belief that the core prophecies have been faithfully transmitted.

Conclusion: Traditional Judaism is highly confident that the words of the prophecy (that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple and gather the exiles) have not been fundamentally altered over the centuries.

2. The "Half-Breed" Interpretation This is where the prophecy gets complicated, because it relies on the religious definition of Jewish identity, not a genetic one:

Who Must Return? The prophecy says the Messiah "will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah." This means those who are considered Jewish under Jewish religious law (Halakha).

Jewish Law (Halakha): Under this traditional definition, a person is considered a Jew if their mother is Jewish or if they have undergone a valid conversion. Genealogy (and DNA) for the purpose of tribal status is nearly impossible to prove, but identity itself relies on the maternal line.

The DNA/Fractional Problem:

A person who is "one-eighth Jewish" through an unbroken male line is not considered Jewish under Halakha (and therefore, the prophecy likely doesn't apply to them).

A person with a Jewish mother is 100% Jewish, even if their father is not, and the prophecy applies to them.

So, it's not about a fractional DNA test. It's about being one of the "dispersed of Israel" as defined by religious law, which is why there's a huge legal and spiritual difference between a person who is "one-eighth" by ancestry and one who is Halakhically Jewish.

fuck man.. these guys really drive a hard bargain with their shit, eh.. so 1/8 half-breed's are gonna have to head back so we can move to phase 3.. let me scroll back up to what that was.. cause you know.. step one of bulldozing the gold dome was quite the bitch, eh..

ok so this is your "phase 3".. lol..

Universal PeaceInitiates the Messianic Age (Olam Ha-Ba), leading the entire world to worship God together, thereby bringing about an era of global, eternal peace.

Well, we can "technically" do phase 2, with DNA tests, right.. so anybody who's got any fucking jew in them, we gotta head them back to Israel.. so I can picture actually being able to do that.

I hear the logic you're trying to apply to the phases, but it's crucial to clarify a few things to keep the religious prophecy and modern reality distinct.

You are attempting to sequence the Messianic tasks as a three-step plan:

Bulldoze the Dome (Step 1): You are asserting this is the way to fulfill the Temple requirement.

Reality Check: This is the non-negotiable roadblock. As established, this act would trigger a massive global war, instantly violating and voiding the final requirement (Universal Peace, or your "Phase 3"). Therefore, no Messiah can succeed with this method.

DNA-Based Ingathering (Step 2): You are proposing using DNA tests to round up anyone with any "Jewish in them."

The Mismatch: This directly conflicts with the foundational religious law defining who is Jewish (Halakha). Jewish identity is based on a Jewish mother or conversion, not on a DNA percentage. The prophecy is about gathering the people of Israel as defined by their religious lineage, not genetic markers. A "1/8th" Jewish person through their father would not be considered Jewish for the purpose of the Ingathering.

Universal Peace (Step 3): This is the ultimate goal.

In summary, the Messianic process, as defined by Jewish prophecy, is more spiritual and political than genetic:

The Ingathering is about the redemption of the Jewish nation (as traditionally defined) to its land.

Universal Peace is the final sign of validation of the Messiah.

If Step 1 (Bulldozing) causes a world war, Step 3 (Universal Peace) becomes immediately impossible, proving the individual who took that action was not the Messiah.

The DNA test idea is a modern concept that is fundamentally incompatible with the ancient, maternal-line-based definition of Jewish identity required for the prophecy.

phase 3 isn't that difficult.. let's go over it again..

Universal Peace Initiates the Messianic Age (Olam Ha-Ba), leading the entire world to worship God together, thereby bringing about an era of global, eternal peace.

It's not that hard.. you've got Monad.. the personality of the entire universe.. You've got yahweh.. he's only a sub logos in charge of the solar system. There was mother earth, gaia, the personality of the planet, who's even lower. There's the "logos", type personality, who's in chrage of a galaxy, but we don't know much about them. The thing with monad, he's in charge of the karma system, eh.. it's sending out this love/light vibe throughout the universe, and anything that doesn't match with it, is considered a "distortion" and it'll keep sending you, lol.. "catalysts" until you get back to being more like in a good mood. That means, if you're pissed off, you'll keep getting bad luck until you "get it" about how monad operates. I'm not gonna fall for it's bullshit where I keep losing. Even fuckin yahweh is subject to monad's karma system and yahweh has issues, ok. It explains why, haha.. even he, keeps getting sent "catalysts" until he bitch smacks up. ok.. so all you gotta fuckin do is explain this actual system of how the entire universe functions.. and any "bullshit" you try and do, even with yourself, when you're alone, you'll lose.

So it's pretty fuckin easy to figure out this, lol phase 3.

"Universal Peace Initiates the Messianic Age (Olam Ha-Ba), leading the entire world to worship God together, thereby bringing about an era of global, eternal peace."

ok.. so you do dumb shit, like sacrificing kids, you'll have a hell of a lot of bad karma to deal with in the next life, ok. That's what the lucifer soul group, luciferian, illuminati cabal has to deal with, with their fuckin job of bringing us the negative polarity to choose from.

ok.. so anything other than this phase 3, you'll be losing, ok. It's not that hard to make people realize that. Just have them read what I just said there. And they know it already goes like that.. so you being a bitch, you lose.. Phase 3 is fuck all, ok. You were trying to make it look like it'd be difficult. But you just make everybody realise how things function, and they'll realize it, by themselves. Because if they try otherwise, they'll just lose and they won't be doing that.

So your biggest problem here, of the 3 phases.. is finding this messiah who's dads were from the line of david.. jewish guys, eh.. hmm. Not that complicated all this shit, eh.

I hear your detailed perspective on the nature of the universe and how you see the path to "Universal Peace" (Phase 3).

You are describing a system based on principles of universal consciousness, polarity, and an operational karma system governed by a higher entity ("Monad"), where all action, good or bad, results in corresponding positive or negative "catalysts" or "bad luck."

Your logic is:

The System is Law: The Monad's "love/light" system is the actual, verifiable reality.

The Explanation is the Key: If this system is simply and effectively explained to everyone, they will understand that negative actions (like being a "bitch" or sacrificing kids) inevitably lead to personal "loss" (bad karma/catalysts).

Automatic Compliance: Rational self-interest will then cause everyone to immediately choose "Universal Peace," thereby fulfilling Phase 3.

Response on the "Phase 3" Difficulty From the perspective of traditional Jewish prophecy, your interpretation of Phase 3 is viewed as oversimplified for the following reasons:

Prophecy Requires Action, Not Just Theory: The Messianic Age (Olam Ha-Ba) is not just an idea; it is a physical reality where the world is transformed into a peaceful kingdom centered on Jerusalem. While the enlightenment you describe could be the foundation for people's behavior, the prophecy requires the Messiah to physically lead the world to a state of perfect harmony and true worship.

The Problem of Agreement: The core of the difficulty is that your system of "Monad," "Yahweh as a sub-logos," "Lucifer soul group," and the operational mechanics of "love/light" and "karma" is not a universally accepted framework. It is an interpretation rooted in specific esoteric, metaphysical, or spiritual sources (often associated with things like the Ra Material or certain New Age/Gnostic systems).

To the rest of the world (including traditional Jews, Christians, and Muslims), your explanation is not "simply how things function," but a foreign theological system they would not instantly accept as justification for their actions.

In summary: While you see the difficulty as zero because "knowledge is power," traditional prophecy sees the difficulty as enormous because implementing global peace—getting billions of people across all faiths to agree and live peacefully—is the hardest political and spiritual task imaginable.

The Unresolved Problem: The Messiah's Identity You are absolutely correct that after setting aside the unviable Temple plan and the DNA issue, the central, massive problem remains: The identity of the true Messiah.

You have correctly summarized the dilemma:

The Messiah must be a Jewish male, patrilineal descendant of King David.

The world, even with DNA technology, has no way to definitively verify this lineage.

Therefore, until someone actually steps up and, without causing a world war, simultaneously rebuilds the Temple, gathers the exiles, and establishes universal peace, no one knows who the Messiah is. The world is simply waiting for the person who succeeds at the entire, nearly impossible list of tasks.

[continued in part 5]