Your take is the take that is ‘exactly backwards’

The Jews, with the benefit of having the OT scriptures in front of them, created a midrashic messiah to fulfill their prophecies. A literary device. The creation of a myth and a new missionary sect of Judaism for the purpose of conquering and Judaising Rome and the gentiles.

so, I was thinking of apocryphal still in the sense of being 'excluded from canon' but nonetheless acknowledged as contemporaneous with the other books of the hebrew scriptures or the new testament, contrasted with the gnostic texts which appeared much later than any canonical books.

Just to clarify then, you initially said that there was good reason to believe that the Gnostic texts predate the synoptics and referenced the Dead Sea Scrolls (provably amongst the oldest extant manuscripts) as supporting evidence. The gnostic element contained within the DSS however is purely the Book of Enoch which is not Gnostic per se but is perhaps an early precursor of gnostic thought.

I think I'm back where I began in this case - that in order to accept the Gnostic rebranding of Jesus, I would have to toss out all of the NT which came before.

isn't Enoch apocryphal rather than gnostic?

It seems to predate gnosticism by hundreds of years - perhaps it is a seminal text?

Jesus does say that repeatedly, but he is paraphrasing the many times YHWH said these things through the prophets, as in:

Deut 29:4 Isaiah 6:9-10 Ezekiel 12:2 Jeremiah 5:21

This (amongst many many other sayings) just corroborates Jesus being the subject/disciple/son of / influenced or inspired by YHWH.

I would just ask you to double check your claim that Gnostic formed part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. References I have checked state that they don't. In fact, http://www.gnosis.org/library/dss/dss.htm would even seem to pit the Qumran and Nag Hammadi finds as competitors on some level. I'm not seeing such a claim on the wikipedia article you linked either..

thanks for the offer but I'd much rather discuss the primary source material - the bible itself. I'm sure C.S Lewis might have some insightful things to say, and probably some not so insightful but I wouldn't substitute it in for the thing itself.

Yeah, I could see how there could possibly be a valid spiritual reality underneath, but it just feels off to me.

However I'm not that au fait with gnosticism. I would have a hard time accepting that Jesus works to undo YHWH's evil plans because the canonical new testament and Jesus own alleged words say totally otherwise.

In order to entertain such a thing I would have to disregard the New Testament in its entirety and give regard only to the gnostic texts - which I believe are much later than the canonical ones. And I don't think that's something I could possibly do.

well, thanks for the conversation anyway. Take care

Ok, but you won’t like what he has in store for you…

Do you think you might be attributing to Jesus something that was already within you? Like using Jesus as a kind of proxy?

My mum died of cancer back in October. She was a fan of Jesus but she was barely literate. I used to go read her the Bible and stuff.

Anyway, towards the end I remember locking t phone off and taking mushrooms so I could come to terms with what was about to happen. I blindfolded my eyes, put sacred music on through my headphones and took mushrooms. I had an incredibly powerful, ancestral experience. Something I’d never felt before and after it was done I felt transported back to primitive times where communication was done through grunts and gestures. Very strange but very profound. There were lots of tears and a coming to terms.

My mum was questioning God (well the Bible god anyway) towards the end and her questions were all valid and undone the notion of god in their own right. I was pleased that she was dispelling the myth in some way but disappointed that it was only dawning on her as her death drew nearer and disappointed that she was going to face the end no longer fully comforted by a steadfast belief in his benevolence.

I read Ecclesiastes at her funeral. A time for everything.

But my experience with mushrooms that time showed me that the “pagan” way is more natural and chimed a lot more with my gentile spirit.

No name. I think if our brains were all as interconnected as they could be then we would directly experience it.

I had a really sacred experience with mushrooms. I ascended upwards and upwards and inwards and inwards and I was definitely in some type of heaven, knowing the secrets of the universe and experiencing euphoria.

But it’s not graspable, it’s not explainable. And the ego was the everpresent, trying to distract.

It certainly is not YHWH or Jesus or any of these anthropomorphic figures

Are they all, when you get down to the brass tacks

I would agree with you that nature and everything in it only points one way - towards a creator. Nothing else makes any sense to me and I highly doubt it ever will.

But the Jewish god ain’t it. Not by a long chalk. The Jewish gods is a war god of one people. He was a jealous god - jealous of all his other fellow gods. Angry, spiteful, sadistic and the self-confessed creator of evil.

Nor is the Jewish messiah Jesus any better, who also wages War by deception in order to fulfill the wicked plans of his wicked father YHWH and act as false shepherd to gentiles, leading them to their slaughter and even ‘treading the winepress’ personally himself.

I think there is a creator, absolutely, but I don’t think it can be contained within the bounds of human characteristics and it most certainly would not be YHWH.

I believe you can see the creator in natural things, in the patterns and ways and I believe you can even experience the creator when you have respite from the ego.

No worries about the Chat GPT use. I suspected as much some way into reading your response so I appreciate your up frontness about it.

Interesting explanations of some Gnostic beliefs there. The issue I would have with Gnosticism though is that even though it is opposed in some sense to the traditional Jewish (including Christian) narrative, it is nonetheless a controlled opposition in that it still operates within the same Jewish paradigm. It still operates under the precept of YHWH as the creator of the earth and humanity. It also believes in Jesus and hails him as a hero whereas his words and the words of the prophets are plain to see and that they espouse racial supremacy of Jews and destruction of gentiles.

One thing I find quite interesting about Gnostic Jesus is what he said about making women into men in the gospel of Thomas I believe.

This feels quite in tune with Jewish mysticism to me and what would go on to become Kabbalah. Kabbalists have Adam as Adam Kadmon - an androgynous non-binary and it just feels like it’s from the same annals as that.

I would still disregard Gnosticism for upholding the fundamental premise of YHWHs plan for the world and of Jesus as the deceitful destroyer portrayed as hero.

Why are you even responding at all if everything you say can be summed up as ‘I would provide an answer, but it is too laborious’

Your tactics are obvious mate.

Let’s take one point at a time. Do you acknowledge that when Jesus said to be wise as serpents that this was instruction given solely to his apostles and not to his flock?

He’s just doing his part too. He mentions men in women’s sport but come on! Isn’t Lara Trump one of the most obvious Ladyboys you’ve ever seen?

He absolutely loves it.

He owns all the beauty pageants which are actually just trannyfests.

Even despite all the beauty pageants being full of, well, men, he was the one who allowed the first openly trans competitor into one his pageants - Jenna Talackova

I have heard of these, yes. This is the Gnostic interpretation of YHWH.

Even if YHWH is as the gnostics believe then the ultimate god above him still appointed him over the earth and so is equally as uncaring/evil or equally as ignorant.

I don’t believe in ANY of the Jewish religions or sects of Judaism, be it Christianity or Gnosticism or Islam but the Gnostic assessment of YHWH seems much more sober and realistic.

The OP is that these forums have been overrun with Christian sheep, noticeably so. Like Christian posters have been brigading conspiracies.win

But also that Christianity is the main tool that Jews have used against gentiles. It has been their main weapon of war and it is actually abundantly clear when you just read the texts of the Bible itself.

Jesus does not like gentiles and is there to bring about or destruction and yet plenty of gentiles adopt a childlike mind as he instructs and just while accept him as the son of YHWH, and YHWH as the one true god - even though YHWH himself never claims to be anyone’s god other than the Israelites. Mind boggling but understandable

I can do what I like and am under no obligation to propose any alternative belief systems, as though you can’t expose a belief system without replacing it with another.

I could sense from your initial injection into my conversation with the other fella that your goal would be to derail the topic away from what the scripture plainly says and into, well, anything else besides.

I’ll not be engaging with you on the topic anymore. If you can stick to your scripture and speak knowledgeably about it then be my guest.

If you have taken Jesus advice and rendered yourself childlike and naive and accepting these things purely on the say so of the book itself then, fair enough. That is your prerogative

Peale the 33rd Degree Freemason...

1. It's not my assumption. Perhaps you should have consulted the Bible before quoting from it. This is the advice Jesus gave specifically to his Apostles as he was sending them out to proselytise. This needn't be a point of debate - you can just go consult the text you were quoting from..

I'm sorry but I don't think you are really engaging in good faith here at all. Hoping to cast doubt on whether I'm being logical et al and trying to reduce what I say down to me making 'assumptions'. No, what I'm doing here is pointing out what the Bible itself says, thats all, and demonstrating to you that it is not for you but against you. You should be attempting to play the ball and not the man.

The 'dogs' in both of those examples DO refer to the gentiles. You can assert otherwise, but at least show your working.

You're not stepping over any boundaries at all. You are correct in what you think. I don't believe Jesus was real, I believe he was a trick rustled up by Jews - a midrash from their scriptures to be sold to the Gentiles (as he was) in order that they would come to worship the god of the jews, which is what happened. By force and by persuasion. And all of our own gods and ways of life were prohibited by the Jews using the husk of the Roman Empire to enforce it - an Empire which became the holy Roman see and the seat of power of the Jewish Messiah, fulfilling Psalm 110. But bear in mind that Rome, for Jesus and the Jews, is the 'midst of thine enemies' from which he will rule. Not to mention all those dead bodies to come...

And if Jesus was real, then he's still a vile character who has set out to deceive not only the gentiles but even his fellow Jews. His main target however is us gentiles who he wishes to bring to utter destruction.

I'd not be keen to move on if that's ok as you still have that challenge pending...

he did say that, but only to his twelve apostles when sending them out to proselytise. It wasn't general advice to all.

In fact, he purposefully kept his 'sheep' in the dark, revealing his teachings only to his cronies. Thus:

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.  Mat 13:12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.  Mat 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 

Jesus, pretending to impart wisdom to his followers, was actually just stringing them along whilst purposefully deceiving and confusing them.

Jesus warned his fellow Jews not to give holy things to the dogs (gentiles) or cast their pearls before swine (also gentiles)

at 7:6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 

This is also echoed in the story of the Canaanite woman:

Mat 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  Mat 15:25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.  Mat 15:26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.  Mat 15:27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 

The dogs are the gentiles whilst the children are the children of god, the Jews. Only when the Canaanite woman acknowledged the Jews as 'masters' and her own status as a 'dog' did Jesus deign to help.

This is the true Jesus - a thoroughly unpleasant, hateful, racial supremacist literary figure posing as a good guy whilst deceiving even his fellow Jews with unfathomable parables but hoarding his real secrets for his inner crew - just like all secret societies since. He is not a purveyor of truth, but a gatekeeper of it.

Jesus is the 'lamb of god'. The Jesus story is the anthropomorphisation of Yom Kippur and the Day of Atonement ritual in which a sacrifical scapegoat would have the sins of the jews placed on it before being sent out to the wilderness, whilst another would be sacrificed to their god.

They repackaged this wacky ritual and sold it to the gentiles via the Jesus story and now you have loads of gentiles cultishly saying they are 'washed in the blood of the lamb'

1. So you deem influencers the windsock of truth?
2. All the new spammy christians flooding this forum and other places
3. I don't know the history of this site and its precursors
4. The bible and history. Psalm 110 for example and the fact that Rome became the seat of Christianity and from there forced the conversion of all of Europe and abolished the native religions thereof, destroying native temples and burning down libraries etc, cutting the noses off of statues
5. Yip. Jesus didn't exist except as a midrash, but the Jesus STORY was used as the vehicle against the gentiles.
6. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and it was Paul who spread the gospel to Rome and beyond. If you look at the alleged words of Jesus however, they are clear and anti-gentile.
7. True, Israel were also a goy in the earliest parts of the Bible, but then YHWH chose them and thenceforth it was only the non-Israelite nations that were referred to as goy.
8. Except whom they CLAIM the true creator is. The Bible is naturally a book biased towards the God of Israel - because that's what the book is about.
9. A couple of passages? Out of context? hmmm and a bunch of whataboutery.
10. And is that your reading? That it was a merciful act upon these children? Then why are the people doing it to be 'happy' about it? And why in such a cruel manner as dashing them against stones?
11. God was also only the God of Israel DURING Jesus alleged ministry. It was only Paul who sought to convert the Gentiles, according to the story anyway.