they're wheeling out their props to shepherd people into the biblical psy op ensuring greater audience participation in their apocalyptic magnum opus -influencing people to willingly have their heads chopped off for the deus ex machina
so then, why spare Isaac at all in that case? In fact, ALL murder is condoned in that view of the world is it not.
YHWH didn't stop the deaths of Jobs children so that he could honour his bet with Satan. Is that fair?
Is it fair to say that, in YHWHs eyes, Jobs children had none of their own human worth but were simply relegated to the role of dehumanised props in the life of Job?
Finally, who is this figure of fear who can destroy both body and soul in hell? Doesn't this refer to YHWH himself? In which case, your sentence: "I think God didn't stop their deaths because we don't fear the one that can destroy our lives but rather the one than can destroy both body and soul in hell." doesn't make much sense.
It reads like this: I think YHWH didn't stop their deaths because we don't fear Satan but rather we fear YHWH
YHWH didn't stop their deaths because we fear YHWH. What am I missing?
what do YOU say about it? I'm asking YOU. if your faith and conviction in the righteousness of YHWH is really that strong and absolute, then answer these things in your own words and stop continually seeking to deflect with links and with the answering of questions with questions.
So YHWH ordered Abraham to sacrifice his own child?
And then an Angel prevented it.
And your terming this as YHWH sparing Isaac And that somehow this paints YHWH in a good light somehow? How? Also, Isaac had no say in the matter whatsoever.. don’t know where you get that from
And why didn’t YHWH spare Jobs children?
Well they were interesting reads.
I read nothing in there that shows YHWH to be in any way superior though. In fact, it just underlined YHWH to be a parochial war god of a specific people, just as the Bible claims him to be.
What did you take from it?
All are better than YHWH.
Ba’al, Molech, Chemosh - you name it. All other Elohim in the Bible are better than YHWH from what the Bible tells us about them.
Oh and every human being ever too - every one of us better than YHWH.
no, I'm just going through the source material which is the basis of your belief and pointing out to you some things that may cause you to question whether such a deity is worthy of your worship.
I contend that your acceptance of YHWH - a hostile tribal God of a hostile and megalomaniacal people - is poisoning your spirit and causing you to put bitter (the deliberate murder of children and torment of an innocent man) for sweet (its a blessing for children to die / YHWH was setting Job right in his thinking)
do you agree that YHWHs actions are indistiguishable from any actions the devil might take?
Such as hardening pharoahs heart in order to keep providing himself a justification for sending plagues, culminating in mass child murder - of people and livestock.
Would you say that was more of a godly thing to do, or more of a devilish thing to do?
Please just answer straightforwardly. Take your cue from Jesus here and:
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
continuation of dead-ended thread:
YHWH permitted his altar-ego Satan to do that to Job. For a bet/to prove a point. And they both kept holding sitreps on the matter.
Jobs children were killed. Why? Why would an allegedly loving god permit the killing of Jobs children?
And does he really think that giving Job more money is adequate compensation? Why?
And why does he shout at Job after agreeing to all the torment?
On your answer to the devil question, that may be. But give me some examples of things that the devil might do where you could spot it and go aha! That's the work of the devil!
I suspect you know the point I'm getting at - that the tendencies and actions of your god YHWH are indistinguishable from anything the devil himself would ordain or carry out.
psst (whisper it) it's because your god is the evil god. Satan himself masquerading as an angel of light - although his disguise is as the emperors new clothes for some of us... perhaps you might also arise from your stupour and see YHWH's little inch of evil flopping about in all its shame..
YHWH MADE them sacrifice their firstborn (there he goes again with his bloodlust for infants) and then upbraided them for it.
Tell me, what kind of deeds might the devil get up to that you would be able to spot and say 'that's the devil at work'?
And what about Job?
you mean be with YHWH or against him. If the choice were so binary as that, then I would very much choose to be against him.
You say YHWH is not malevolent. I think he clearly is and I have given countless examples throughout our conversation of his malevolence. In fact, even YHWH himself says he is the cause of evil:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
His torment of Job, for why again? What about this:
Eze 20:25 I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life, Eze 20:26 and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the LORD, was punishing them.
Face it man! You worship the devil!
yeah, I think it's probably best not to conflate these terms.
Gnostic refers to a specific group in and around early Christianity, correct? And this sect (if that's the right term) have their own gospels which are generally considered to post date the synoptics.
The Gospel of Thomas predating or being contemporaneous with the early Christian texts is a fascinating idea and I'm not saying it isn't the case. It could well be. But it still doesn't undo all the other Christian texts which are abundantly evil and deceptive and anti-gentile and which only serve to underpin the OT anyway.
It doesn't move the needle on any of that. Unless, you DO agree that the NT should be thrown out entirely for the sake of the Gnostic gospels.
Can both the canonical NT and the Gnostic texts coexist and complement each other? Or are they irreconcilably opposed in fundamental ways?
YHWH had already selected Jacob though and presumably colluded with him to enact treachery upon his brother. And yet you are blaming Esau
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
This was before they were born and apparently ordained by YHWH himself.
Why would YHWH look favourably upon Jacob for so treacherously exploiting his brother in such a manner? Perhaps YHWH the clearly evil psychotic deity takes great delight in the treachery and deceit of his offspring and had it all planned from the beginning.
But Esau's to blame, right? Just like the Pharoah is to blame for not letting the Israelites go in the face of all those plagues - even though YHWH deliberately hardened his heart to prevent him from doing so - culminating in YHWH getting to enact one of his favourite judgments: child murder! Kill all the firstborn! Even of the livestock!
His detestation of the firstborn, including Esau, is curious to say the least.
Also, WHY do you have a collective noun for everyone else?
you have a collective noun for those who do not worship the god of Israel, YHWH.
All diverse peoples and religions - no matter how unconnected and disparate they are - are lumped together as though they were one amorphous blob. From the Greek and Roman pantheons through to Buddhists, Hindu's and Zoroastrians through to Yoruba, Aztecs and Mayans to Druids, Norse, Daoism and everything in between.
You have just come to accept the Israelite god as YOUR one true god - despite the fact that he has no place for you unless you are a Jew. And that is fine and totally your prerogative. It comes with the territory of allying yourself to YHWH and his people.
Why did Esau sell his birthright? I believe the story goes that Jacob took advantage of his brothers hunger and only agreed to feed him on the condition he gave up his birthright.
The point about Esau from the post you are responding to though was to show you YHWHs undying hatred for anyone other than Jacob ie Israel. This was in response to you stating that YHWH 'loves me'.
Patently, YHWH detests the guts of anyone who is not Israel or who does not serve Israel and therefore so, presumably, must you.
I strongly disagree with your categorising the world into two groups of people.
‘Pagan’ is a purely Christian term used to lump together everyone who is not Jew/Christian. Similar to goyim and kuffar. It’s a distinctly Abrahamic (ie Jewish) out-group naming convention and not one I subscribe to at all.
I would also challenge your proposition that the alleged creator, YHWH, loves anyone besides Israel. In fact, he declares his undying hatred.
Mal 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob Mal 1:3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” Mal 1:4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’” Mal 1:5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”
I think it is you who are getting closer...