Keep on downvoting with all your alt accounts you mentally ill deformed National Socialist sodomite faggot. The Rothschild puppet Adolf schicklgruber would've exterminated you wet brain retard first in his satanic eugenics program!
Have fun mass brigading this godless shithole with your 20 alt accounts you impotent black sun of saturn/satan/lucifer worshiping National Zionist NaZi nolife faggot.
Thanks 3I! I've said shepherds don't watch flocks by night in winter for up to 30 years, so I'm on the antisolar team. But if you don't mind my telling my own "Christmas story" as it happened to me, it takes an interesting twist!
Obviously Two Babylons and Fossilized Customs and the like were very big on the early intake. My best friend (now my wife) and I compiled plenty of reasons Jesus wasn't born in winter, and we recognized that both historical and typological data suggested he was born in fall, 4 BC. John was born and dedicated for the 8 days of Passover, and Jesus was born and dedicated for the 8 days of Tabernacles, when there would be enrollments, and no room in Jerusalem inns. The spirit of Elijah was expected at Passover (John), and the tabernacling of God with man was expected at Tabernacles (Jesus), and a manger is in Greek a tabernacle.
And so he was conceived 9 months earlier. We realized this would be fitting as the first of Dedication in winter, again with the historicity matching (the Magi's star was documented in China in spring, 5 BC, preceding their journey), and with the typology well-supporting (the light entering the temple). So we resolved to recognize the winter solstice the way God does: First, celebrating Noah's covenant by which the winter solstice shall never cease; second, celebrating Haggai's prediction that from the 24th of Kislev God would bless his people with seed in the barn; third, celebrating the covenant reclamation of the temple in winter 165 BC. It was clear to us that Haggai 2 prophesied that the first night of light in the temple would be the 25th of Kislev, later called Hanukkah and Dedication and celebrated by Jesus (John 10:22-23). That meant it was okay to celebrate winter as the time of the annunciation and conception even while pulling people back from the extremes of xylolatry and solarianism.
When I arrived at Win Communities in 2021 and committed to finish my chronology of the world (123456789), I had my first shock to realize that the first night of Hanukkah in 5 BC was not just 25 Kislev but also 25 December on the then-current Julian calendar.
But it got worse. It took me time to realize that I could propose to Christians in general that we could recast 25 December as the Annunciation and Conception and also his more literal Genesis and Nativity, and it would be amazing if that actually were picked up as a tradition. Each year as I revisited the data they got more interesting.
In the 4th century Jesus's nativity is given as "VIII Kal. ian. d. ven. luna XV", literally Fri 25 Dec, 15th of moon. Even if we regard the "25 Dec" as solstice-influenced, we still get the confirm that Tabernacles puts his birth on the 15th of the moon and on the night of Fri-Sat, suggesting that there is older valid tradition to it. This is from the consul lists, with the Philocalian Calendar of 354 similarly.
Clement of Alexandria c. 200 compiled guesses as April 19 or 20 or May 20, but that was because both were the 25th on Egyptian calendars. So there's another echo of that number 25. I'd thought this could be discounted because it echoed the solstice being on the 21st, but it didn't say 21.
Hippolytus on Daniel, c. 202-211, was the one who calculated a date for Passover as the "genesis" (conception) of Christ and added 9 months to get 25 Dec. This was the attempt to reconcile the tradition of winter birth with the (unnecessary) idea that he was conceived and died on the same day of the year. Six of seven manuscripts of Hippolytus, and one of two early quotations of him, say 25 Dec.
Digging deeper, Luke 2 makes ten references back to Haggai 2, suggesting that Simeon could've calculated from Jesus's 40-day presentation and his published lineage that Haggai 2 was being invoked and he prophesied as an explication of that whole passage. This confirms textually (not just typologically) that Jesus was indeed conceived the night of 25 Kislev.
Haggai 2 also refers to 24 Kislev 520 BC as the last day of the desolation of Jerusalem as if the 25th marks the beginning of the second temple. Counting from the beginning of the desolation on 10 Tevet 589 (2 Kings 25:1) we get exactly 70 x 360 days.
(For completion, I should note Clement's odd calculation from the death of Commodus in 193 AD that would put Jesus's birth in mid-Nov of 2 BC, and Hippolytus's Canon suggesting 2 Apr of 2 BC, but which was known to need correction to Passover of 4 BC which would change the Julian date. Clement's data doesn't appear to track to anything; Hippolytus's appears to have been corrected by himself to a silently calculated date like 25 Mar of 4 BC "genesis" or conception. It's possible that Hippolytus was using a relatively accurate new moon table, with the Hillel moons of the evenings of 2 Apr 2 BC and 26 Mar 4 BC supplying his dates even though they are not full moons.)
And what's really troubling me is that all the connection to solstice talk that I can currently find appears to be my own and others' echo chambers after the fact. The first-century solstice was on the Julian 23rd, and the third-century solstice on the Julian and Gregorian 21st, and those dates simply don't enter into the extant calculations of Jesus's nativity. From what I can tell right now (and I could be wrong), every accusation that Jesus's dating mimicked the solstice comes from arguments that it was proximate and never the exact solstice. That's pretty significant. We might argue that the Julian 23rd was the exact seventh day of Saturnalia in the 1st century as OP does, but that doesn't inform where the data of the 25th comes from. And for many years I had assumed it did but I never had anyone say this to me both accurately and provably.
So now, for the first time, I'm putting forth the theory that the early reference to 25 Dec, namely Hippolytus by 211 AD, is genuine and refers to Jesus's nativity as his conception. The sequence is as follows.
(1) God establishes the general winter solstice as a time of renewal, 2336 BC, Gen. 8. (2) God establishes the lunar 24th and 25th near the solstice as founding the second temple and ensuring seed (and producing many upheavals), 520 BC, Hag. 2. (3) God establishes the same lunar 24th and 25th as rededicating the second temple, 165 BC, Maccabees. (4) God visits Mary with an angel on the lunar 24th and with his Spirit on the lunar 25th, then called 25 Dec Julian, tying the Julian number to the Hillel number that year, making both a Julian "Christmas" and a Hanukkah on the same date (though it is proleptic Gregorian 23 Dec). This is deliberately two days after the solstice and the end of Saturnalia, 5 BC, Matt. 1. (5) Mary treasures these things, including the Hanukkah date, in her heart, and next year goes for Jesus's temple presentation on his 40th day, 14 Nov 4 BC; and Simeon recognizes the reference to 25 Kislev (and possibly 25 Dec) and repeatedly quotes Hag. 2, Luke 2, 4 BC. (6) The tradition of 25 Dec remains alive and is noted by Hippolytus (along with others), who mistakes it for the birth of Christ rather than his conception. He does not rely on solstice or equinox data because his calculations (though incomplete) demonstrate lunar and not solar reliance, 211 AD; by this time it's four days after the solstice, which it returns to with the Gregorian reform. (7) Clement echoes the 25th but calculates it on the Egyptian calendar instead; the consul lists echo Dec 25 but combine it with a separate tradition putting Jesus's birth on Fri on the 15th of the lunar month (accurate and agreeing with his death on Fri on the 14th of the lunar month), cf. the Philocalian Calendar, 354 AD.
Mary is reported to have lived beyond 68 AD. That puts the eyewitness data less than 150 years from the first written data in Hippolytus, but supported by both the prophetic tradition, the implicit confirmation by Simeon and Luke with ten allusions, and the rationale of the earliest church chronographers without reference to the solstice. I guess I've begun to celebrate the Nativity (Genesis, Annunciation, and Conception) of Jesus on 25 Dec again. It's his 2,029th anniversary. Coming home to where I grew up but by a completely different route.
I agree that Jesus was likely born in the fall and that December 25 has rich symbolic and liturgical value, but the exact dates, lunar calculations, and biblical references are imaginative interpretations, not historical proof, with the only solid anchors being Herod’s death before 4 BC and the shepherds being in the fields.
It gets deeper for me every year, every year you look into it, it will for you too.
Historically, Mary would've known the Julian date of the annunciation and she is reported to have treasured the details. The linked historical data that demonstrate that Simeon had to have been conscious of his references back to Haggai 2 indicate that he found out the conception date too, given that it was, by Mosaic law, known to be Jesus's 40th day. Then the fact that you have multiple streams by which 25 Dec is recalled later, that they are actually free of solstitial influence (the new detail I got recently), and that they are earlier than one would expect from the naysayers suggests that they may contribute to the same testimony strain. When combined with the many lines of evidence indicating Jesus's birth on 6 Oct of 4 BC, there is a very solid historical case here, much more than I realized when first writing the chronology.
I should note, I found a source that demonstrates that Josephus's reference to relatives of Herod who plotted against a king of their own people are solid evidence that the slaughter of the innocents was carried out on Herod's orders by his cousin Joseph. That also came up new this month.
Blinded By The Sun (1999) https://archive.org/details/607502225-blinded-by-the-sun/mode/1up
Santa Claus or Satan Claws? https://www.scribd.com/document/45678943/Scriptural-DPI-Santa-Claus-or-Satan-Claws
Jesus is reborn every time a jew kvetches. 🙏🏻
Satire or real?
Jesus Christ cursed the Edomite "Jews" who are the pharisees, you retarded black sun of saturn worshiping nolife faggot!
I feast upon your kvetching! 😎
Keep on downvoting with all your alt accounts you mentally ill deformed National Socialist sodomite faggot. The Rothschild puppet Adolf schicklgruber would've exterminated you wet brain retard first in his satanic eugenics program!
Have a Merry Christmas from the Nazis!
Have fun mass brigading this godless shithole with your 20 alt accounts you impotent black sun of saturn/satan/lucifer worshiping National Zionist NaZi nolife faggot.
Eternal Hellfire awaits you!
Nazis were Christians, so they went to heaven. 🙏🏻
Thanks 3I! I've said shepherds don't watch flocks by night in winter for up to 30 years, so I'm on the antisolar team. But if you don't mind my telling my own "Christmas story" as it happened to me, it takes an interesting twist!
Obviously Two Babylons and Fossilized Customs and the like were very big on the early intake. My best friend (now my wife) and I compiled plenty of reasons Jesus wasn't born in winter, and we recognized that both historical and typological data suggested he was born in fall, 4 BC. John was born and dedicated for the 8 days of Passover, and Jesus was born and dedicated for the 8 days of Tabernacles, when there would be enrollments, and no room in Jerusalem inns. The spirit of Elijah was expected at Passover (John), and the tabernacling of God with man was expected at Tabernacles (Jesus), and a manger is in Greek a tabernacle.
And so he was conceived 9 months earlier. We realized this would be fitting as the first of Dedication in winter, again with the historicity matching (the Magi's star was documented in China in spring, 5 BC, preceding their journey), and with the typology well-supporting (the light entering the temple). So we resolved to recognize the winter solstice the way God does: First, celebrating Noah's covenant by which the winter solstice shall never cease; second, celebrating Haggai's prediction that from the 24th of Kislev God would bless his people with seed in the barn; third, celebrating the covenant reclamation of the temple in winter 165 BC. It was clear to us that Haggai 2 prophesied that the first night of light in the temple would be the 25th of Kislev, later called Hanukkah and Dedication and celebrated by Jesus (John 10:22-23). That meant it was okay to celebrate winter as the time of the annunciation and conception even while pulling people back from the extremes of xylolatry and solarianism.
When I arrived at Win Communities in 2021 and committed to finish my chronology of the world (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9), I had my first shock to realize that the first night of Hanukkah in 5 BC was not just 25 Kislev but also 25 December on the then-current Julian calendar.
But it got worse. It took me time to realize that I could propose to Christians in general that we could recast 25 December as the Annunciation and Conception and also his more literal Genesis and Nativity, and it would be amazing if that actually were picked up as a tradition. Each year as I revisited the data they got more interesting.
In the 4th century Jesus's nativity is given as "VIII Kal. ian. d. ven. luna XV", literally Fri 25 Dec, 15th of moon. Even if we regard the "25 Dec" as solstice-influenced, we still get the confirm that Tabernacles puts his birth on the 15th of the moon and on the night of Fri-Sat, suggesting that there is older valid tradition to it. This is from the consul lists, with the Philocalian Calendar of 354 similarly.
Clement of Alexandria c. 200 compiled guesses as April 19 or 20 or May 20, but that was because both were the 25th on Egyptian calendars. So there's another echo of that number 25. I'd thought this could be discounted because it echoed the solstice being on the 21st, but it didn't say 21.
Hippolytus on Daniel, c. 202-211, was the one who calculated a date for Passover as the "genesis" (conception) of Christ and added 9 months to get 25 Dec. This was the attempt to reconcile the tradition of winter birth with the (unnecessary) idea that he was conceived and died on the same day of the year. Six of seven manuscripts of Hippolytus, and one of two early quotations of him, say 25 Dec.
Digging deeper, Luke 2 makes ten references back to Haggai 2, suggesting that Simeon could've calculated from Jesus's 40-day presentation and his published lineage that Haggai 2 was being invoked and he prophesied as an explication of that whole passage. This confirms textually (not just typologically) that Jesus was indeed conceived the night of 25 Kislev.
Haggai 2 also refers to 24 Kislev 520 BC as the last day of the desolation of Jerusalem as if the 25th marks the beginning of the second temple. Counting from the beginning of the desolation on 10 Tevet 589 (2 Kings 25:1) we get exactly 70 x 360 days.
(For completion, I should note Clement's odd calculation from the death of Commodus in 193 AD that would put Jesus's birth in mid-Nov of 2 BC, and Hippolytus's Canon suggesting 2 Apr of 2 BC, but which was known to need correction to Passover of 4 BC which would change the Julian date. Clement's data doesn't appear to track to anything; Hippolytus's appears to have been corrected by himself to a silently calculated date like 25 Mar of 4 BC "genesis" or conception. It's possible that Hippolytus was using a relatively accurate new moon table, with the Hillel moons of the evenings of 2 Apr 2 BC and 26 Mar 4 BC supplying his dates even though they are not full moons.)
And what's really troubling me is that all the connection to solstice talk that I can currently find appears to be my own and others' echo chambers after the fact. The first-century solstice was on the Julian 23rd, and the third-century solstice on the Julian and Gregorian 21st, and those dates simply don't enter into the extant calculations of Jesus's nativity. From what I can tell right now (and I could be wrong), every accusation that Jesus's dating mimicked the solstice comes from arguments that it was proximate and never the exact solstice. That's pretty significant. We might argue that the Julian 23rd was the exact seventh day of Saturnalia in the 1st century as OP does, but that doesn't inform where the data of the 25th comes from. And for many years I had assumed it did but I never had anyone say this to me both accurately and provably.
So now, for the first time, I'm putting forth the theory that the early reference to 25 Dec, namely Hippolytus by 211 AD, is genuine and refers to Jesus's nativity as his conception. The sequence is as follows.
(1) God establishes the general winter solstice as a time of renewal, 2336 BC, Gen. 8. (2) God establishes the lunar 24th and 25th near the solstice as founding the second temple and ensuring seed (and producing many upheavals), 520 BC, Hag. 2. (3) God establishes the same lunar 24th and 25th as rededicating the second temple, 165 BC, Maccabees. (4) God visits Mary with an angel on the lunar 24th and with his Spirit on the lunar 25th, then called 25 Dec Julian, tying the Julian number to the Hillel number that year, making both a Julian "Christmas" and a Hanukkah on the same date (though it is proleptic Gregorian 23 Dec). This is deliberately two days after the solstice and the end of Saturnalia, 5 BC, Matt. 1. (5) Mary treasures these things, including the Hanukkah date, in her heart, and next year goes for Jesus's temple presentation on his 40th day, 14 Nov 4 BC; and Simeon recognizes the reference to 25 Kislev (and possibly 25 Dec) and repeatedly quotes Hag. 2, Luke 2, 4 BC. (6) The tradition of 25 Dec remains alive and is noted by Hippolytus (along with others), who mistakes it for the birth of Christ rather than his conception. He does not rely on solstice or equinox data because his calculations (though incomplete) demonstrate lunar and not solar reliance, 211 AD; by this time it's four days after the solstice, which it returns to with the Gregorian reform. (7) Clement echoes the 25th but calculates it on the Egyptian calendar instead; the consul lists echo Dec 25 but combine it with a separate tradition putting Jesus's birth on Fri on the 15th of the lunar month (accurate and agreeing with his death on Fri on the 14th of the lunar month), cf. the Philocalian Calendar, 354 AD.
Mary is reported to have lived beyond 68 AD. That puts the eyewitness data less than 150 years from the first written data in Hippolytus, but supported by both the prophetic tradition, the implicit confirmation by Simeon and Luke with ten allusions, and the rationale of the earliest church chronographers without reference to the solstice. I guess I've begun to celebrate the Nativity (Genesis, Annunciation, and Conception) of Jesus on 25 Dec again. It's his 2,029th anniversary. Coming home to where I grew up but by a completely different route.
I agree that Jesus was likely born in the fall and that December 25 has rich symbolic and liturgical value, but the exact dates, lunar calculations, and biblical references are imaginative interpretations, not historical proof, with the only solid anchors being Herod’s death before 4 BC and the shepherds being in the fields.
Excellent comment though.
It gets deeper for me every year, every year you look into it, it will for you too.
Historically, Mary would've known the Julian date of the annunciation and she is reported to have treasured the details. The linked historical data that demonstrate that Simeon had to have been conscious of his references back to Haggai 2 indicate that he found out the conception date too, given that it was, by Mosaic law, known to be Jesus's 40th day. Then the fact that you have multiple streams by which 25 Dec is recalled later, that they are actually free of solstitial influence (the new detail I got recently), and that they are earlier than one would expect from the naysayers suggests that they may contribute to the same testimony strain. When combined with the many lines of evidence indicating Jesus's birth on 6 Oct of 4 BC, there is a very solid historical case here, much more than I realized when first writing the chronology.
I should note, I found a source that demonstrates that Josephus's reference to relatives of Herod who plotted against a king of their own people are solid evidence that the slaughter of the innocents was carried out on Herod's orders by his cousin Joseph. That also came up new this month.