https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tate%E2%80%93LaBianca_murders
most people are familiar with the tate stuff but what's this about the next day
The Wikipedia article confirms that the murders occurred over two consecutive nights, with the LaBianca murders taking place on the second night (August 10, 1969).
While the first night involved Charles Manson Family members murdering five people (including Sharon Tate) at 10050 Cielo Drive, the next day's events focused on two victims at a different location:
Victims: Supermarket executive Leno LaBianca and his wife, Rosemary LaBianca, were murdered at their home at 3301 Waverly Drive in the Los Feliz section of Los Angeles.
Perpetrators: Charles Manson drove the four participants from the previous night (Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian), plus new members Leslie Van Houten and Clem Grogan, to the area.
Manson's Involvement: Manson, allegedly displeased with how the first night's murders went, first entered the house and tied up the couple. He then left, instructing Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten to carry out the killings.
Method: Leno LaBianca was stabbed multiple times, and the word "WAR" was carved into his abdomen. Rosemary LaBianca was also stabbed multiple times.
The "Sign": Krenwinkel used the victims' blood to write "Rise" and "Death to pigs" on the walls and "Helter Skelter" on the refrigerator door. She also left a carving fork in Leno LaBianca's stomach and a steak knife in his throat.
what were the motives for the first night's murders.. why there
The motives for the first night's murders (the Tate murders) were complex and driven by Charles Manson's cult ideology and personal grudges.
Motive: Starting "Helter Skelter" The primary motive, as interpreted by the prosecution and widely believed, was Manson's apocalyptic vision known as "Helter Skelter." Manson believed a race war was imminent and that the murders would serve as a catalyst, making it appear as though Black militants were killing wealthy white people. He hoped this would spark the race war, after which he and the Family would emerge from hiding to rule the world. The messages written in the victims' blood (like "pig" on the door of the Tate residence and "Death to pigs" and "Helter Skelter" at the LaBianca residence the next night) were intended to look like they were committed by Black Panther-style militants.
The Specific Location: 10050 Cielo Drive The house was targeted primarily because of the previous occupant, not the victims themselves.
The home was the former residence of music producer Terry Melcher, the son of Doris Day, who had previously shown interest in recording Charles Manson's music but ultimately refused to sign him to a record deal.
Manson had a personal grievance against Melcher and the Hollywood establishment he felt rejected him. Sending his followers to that specific address was an act of violence intended to strike out at the "establishment" and the people he blamed for his failures.
Although Melcher had moved out by August 1969, Manson sent his followers to the house to "totally destroy everyone inside," carrying out a punitive and symbolic attack.
what were the motives for the next day murders.. why there and why those people?
The motive for the LaBianca murders on the second night (August 10, 1969) was directly linked to the broader, chaotic vision of Charles Manson.
The key factors for the second night were:
- Re-Committing to "Helter Skelter" Manson was reportedly displeased with the chaotic and messy nature of the Tate murders the night before. He felt his followers had lost control and didn't leave a clear enough "sign" to start the apocalyptic race war he called "Helter Skelter."
Manson's Goal: He decided to accompany the group to show them "how to do it" and ensure a more gruesome, symbolic, and convincing crime that could be blamed on "Black militants."
The Signs Left: In the LaBianca home, Manson's followers wrote messages in the victims' blood that were much more explicit than the previous night's: "DEATH TO PIGS," "RISE," and the misspelled "HEALTER SKELTER" on the refrigerator. Leno LaBianca also had the word "WAR" carved into his abdomen and a carving fork left protruding from his stomach. These details were meant to be more sensational and incendiary.
- Why That Location and Those People? Unlike the Tate residence, which was chosen due to a personal grudge against the former occupant (Terry Melcher), the LaBianca residence and its occupants were seemingly randomly chosen to fulfill the "Helter Skelter" mandate.
Random Victims of the "Establishment": Leno LaBianca (a grocery store executive) and his wife Rosemary were targeted primarily because they were affluent, white, and successful—fitting Manson's general description of "pigs" or members of the "establishment" he wanted killed.
The Location's Significance: The house at 3301 Waverly Drive was located next door to a home where Manson and Family members had attended a party the previous year. Manson may have had a familiarity with the area, or simply directed the group to cruise the neighborhoods until a suitable target was found. The LaBiancas themselves had no connection to Manson or his followers.
In summary, the LaBianca murders were a second, more directed attempt by Charles Manson to execute his twisted vision and initiate the "Helter Skelter" race war by creating a copycat crime scene that police would attribute to a different group.
Looking at the place next door.. what is this cross design?
(Had uploaded file, but adding whatever I uploaded to imgur so you can see what I'm talking about)
https://i.imgur.com/XnAAOaL.jpeg
The cross design visible in the aerial view of the property next door to the former LaBianca house (3301/3311 Waverly Drive) is a simplified Maltese Cross.
While the LaBianca victims were not connected to this symbol, the design itself is globally recognized and has specific associations:
Maltese Cross: The symbol is characterized by four 'V' shapes joining at the center, with eight points in total.
Primary Association: Today, the Maltese Cross is most famously recognized as the symbol of the fire service and firefighters around the world. Its association with firefighting dates back to the Knights Hospitaller during the Crusades.
In the context of the Los Feliz neighborhood, this design is likely a decorative element on the patio of the neighboring property, often used in landscaping or paving. It does not appear to have any documented connection to the historical events of the 1969 murders.
no it's a large religious compound next door
You are absolutely right to point out that it is a large religious compound. My previous assumption, based purely on the visible symbol, was incomplete.
The large property complex next door to the former LaBianca residence (3301/3311 Waverly Drive) is the Saint Columban's Foreign Mission Society.
Identity: It is a Catholic missionary organization.
History: The grand compound, originally built in 1929, was acquired by the Saint Columban's Foreign Missionary Society in the late 1950s, and priests from the order still reside there.
The Cross Design: The cross design you observed in the aerial view is most likely an architectural or decorative feature, such as a skylight, paving pattern, or garden feature, installed by either the mission society or a previous owner. Given the religious nature of the current occupants (a Catholic missionary order), a large cross-shaped design in the architecture or landscaping would be a fitting symbol. While the specific style resembles a Maltese Cross, it is used by a variety of groups, and in this location, it is a prominent religious/architectural feature on the adjacent property.
it's pretty big area the cross bricks.. don't the knights of malta use that maltese cross?
Yes, the Knights of Malta (formally the Sovereign Military Order of Malta) absolutely use the Maltese Cross.
The Maltese Cross has deep historical and religious significance, which explains why a variation of it might be used at a Catholic missionary compound.
- Knights of Malta and the Maltese Cross The Maltese Cross—known for its distinctive eight-pointed design—is the central and official symbol of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM), which traces its roots back to the medieval Knights Hospitaller (or Knights of St. John).
Origin: The eight-pointed cross was originally associated with the Hospital of St. John in Jerusalem, which was run by the religious order that evolved into the Knights Hospitaller.
Name: The cross became known as the Maltese Cross after the Knights established their sovereign headquarters on the island of Malta in 1530.
Symbolism: The eight points of the cross are traditionally said to symbolize the eight Beatitudes (from the Sermon on the Mount) or the eight obligations/aspirations of the Knights (e.g., to live in truth, to have faith, to be merciful, etc.).
- Connection to the Los Feliz Compound The property next door to the former LaBianca house is the Saint Columban's Foreign Mission Society, a Catholic missionary group.
While there is no direct, formal connection between the Saint Columban's Mission Society and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, the use of a prominent cross design, even one resembling the Maltese Cross, is very logical because:
Shared Christian Motif: Both organizations are Catholic orders. The cross, in general, is the universal symbol of Christianity, and the eight-pointed cross has been adopted by many Catholic and chivalric orders throughout history.
Architectural Element: A large, geometric cross pattern made of brick or stone is a common design element in the courtyards or patios of grand historic homes and religious institutions. It serves as a decorative, but also spiritually relevant, focal point for the compound.
no, you got shenanigans going on with the knights of malta, in malta, over the years
That's an interesting point. While the Knights of Malta—or the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM), which is their official title today—are primarily known for their current global humanitarian work, their long history does involve several periods of internal shenanigans and significant conflict.
Here are a couple of the most prominent areas of controversy over the years:
- Historical Tensions with the Maltese People (16th–18th Century) During the nearly 270 years (1530 to 1798) that the Knights ruled the island of Malta, there were recurring tensions:
Exclusivity: The Order was composed of noblemen from different European "Langues" (linguistic groups/regions) and, for a long time, Maltese locals (even the nobility) were often excluded from the highest ranks of the Order itself. This led to resentment among the native population.
Dissatisfaction with Rule: By the late 18th century, the Knights were seen by some as an increasingly backward and autocratic ruling class. Growing poverty and discontent, combined with the spread of modernist, revolutionary ideas from Europe, led to friction.
The French Takeover: This simmering tension is a key reason why Napoleon's forces were able to take the island so easily in 1798. Many local Maltese were initially welcoming of the French, and even some of the Knights defected, as the Order's rule had become deeply unpopular.
- Recent Internal and Vatican Conflicts (21st Century) In the modern era, the SMOM has faced very high-profile internal conflicts that have drawn the direct intervention of the Vatican:
The Contraceptive Scandal (2016-2017): This was a major global news story. It centered on the firing of the Grand Chancellor, Albrecht Freiherr von Boeselager, by the then-Grand Master, Fra' Matthew Festing. The conflict was sparked by the revelation that the Order's humanitarian arm, Malteser International, had been involved in distributing condoms in parts of the developing world as part of a public health campaign to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS.
This led to a serious conflict over the Order's moral and religious adherence to Catholic doctrine and triggered a major constitutional crisis.
The Outcome: Pope Francis intervened directly, appointed a commission, accepted the resignation of the Grand Master, and later reinstated the Grand Chancellor. This signaled the Holy See's ultimate authority over the Order, despite the SMOM's status as a sovereign entity in international law.
Constitutional Reform: The Vatican has also continued to press for major reforms to the Order's constitution and governance to ensure its religious nature is prioritized.
So, you're right—while the Cross itself is an ancient symbol of service, the organization behind it has had a long and often contentious history, both locally in Malta and more recently within the global Catholic structure.
[continued in comments]
[part 19]
was terry melcher involved with those characters in the Laurel canyon scene.. probably, eh.. I think some of the byrds were in that area.
You are absolutely right to connect Terry Melcher to the general scene in and around Laurel Canyon. While he didn't strictly live in Laurel Canyon itself during his most notorious period, he was a central figure and the producer behind some of the Canyon's most important bands.
Here's the breakdown of his involvement:
Terry Melcher produced both of those groundbreaking albums. This cemented his role as an architect of the Canyon sound, even if the band members had creative differences with him later on.
The Byrds' members, like David Crosby and Chris Hillman, were deeply embedded in the Canyon social scene.
He was the former tenant of the murder house. Melcher and his then-girlfriend, actress Candice Bergen, lived at 10050 Cielo Drive in Benedict Canyon (an area adjacent to Laurel Canyon).
He met Charles Manson through Dennis Wilson of The Beach Boys (another Canyon-adjacent figure). Melcher listened to Manson's music and briefly considered producing him, even visiting the Manson Family at Spahn Ranch.
Melcher and Bergen moved out in early 1969, and director Roman Polanski and his wife Sharon Tate began renting the house. According to a key theory, Manson ordered the murders at that address in August 1969 because he intended to target Terry Melcher after Melcher refused to sign him to a record deal.
In short, Melcher was a key producer of the music and was physically present in the immediate social and geographic orbit of the Laurel Canyon scene. He was a central link that ultimately connected the idyllic California Sound with its traumatic, darker chapter.
10050 Cielo Drive, that's bel air, not beverly hills?
That's an excellent clarification point about the precise location, as the geography in that area is often confusingly described.
The original house at 10050 Cielo Drive was officially located in Los Angeles, California, specifically in the Benedict Canyon area of the Beverly Crest neighborhood.
Here's why it's so confusing and often linked to Beverly Hills and Bel Air:
Benedict Canyon is a canyon road that starts in Beverly Hills and runs north into the hills, eventually becoming part of the City of Los Angeles. The property was located just on the Los Angeles side of the city limit, but right near both Beverly Hills and Bel Air, which are also very close to each other.
The area is commonly described as "overlooking Beverly Hills and Bel Air," and the postal code for that general area is sometimes 90210 (the famous Beverly Hills zip code), adding to the confusion.
So, while it was in the geographical region known as Benedict Canyon and intimately connected to the social scene of both Beverly Hills and Bel Air, its jurisdiction was the City of Los Angeles.
The original house was demolished and a new house was built on the property with a new address: 10066 Cielo Drive.
so it's like in the middle of the hills from beverly hills going up to bel air?
That's a very intuitive way to think about it!
The best way to visualize it is that the property was located in a mountainous area called Benedict Canyon, which is one of the main canyons cutting through the Santa Monica Mountains.
Benedict Canyon Drive starts in the City of Beverly Hills (down near Sunset Blvd).
It then winds its way up into the hills, and the area where 10050 Cielo Drive was located is officially within the City of Los Angeles.
This location is directly adjacent to both Beverly Hills and Bel Air, meaning it's in the exclusive hills between the more famous flat areas of those two communities.
So, yes, it's essentially situated high in the hills, very close to the intersection of the boundaries for Beverly Hills, Bel Air, and the City of Los Angeles. It was part of the geographically secluded, upscale canyon community that connected all of those famous neighborhoods.
looking up bel air in google earth where you can tilt in 3D.. most of these houses don't have tennis courts and not much land I guess it's cause it's kind of hilly?
That is exactly the reason. Your observation is very accurate.
The topography of the area—the steep, winding hills of the Santa Monica Mountains—is the primary factor determining why many homes in Bel Air lack large, flat amenities like full-sized tennis courts.
Here's a breakdown of the dynamic in Bel Air:
Hilly Terrain = Limited Flat Space: A standard tennis court requires a large, perfectly flat area. When you build on a steep hillside, creating that flat space requires massive amounts of grading, retaining walls, and engineering, which is extremely expensive.
The Price of Views: In the hills, you are paying a premium for the stunning, panoramic "jetliner views" of the city and the Pacific Ocean. Many homeowners prioritize the view over a flat backyard or a large court.
Lot Size vs. Usable Land: While the total acreage of a Bel Air lot can be quite large (some are well over an acre), much of that land is unusable steep slope. The flat "pad" where the house and main amenities (like a pool) sit is often much smaller.
Where the Courts Are: You will see tennis courts on the more sprawling, less-steep properties in Lower Bel Air (closer to Sunset Boulevard) or on the select promontories (hilltops with wide, flat peaks) where a developer could afford the intense work required to create a large, level foundation.
So, in short: The houses are luxurious because of the views and seclusion, but the terrain limits the usable flat space, which is why many houses skip the tennis court.
only the super rich have tennis courts and guest houses in bel air. lol
That's definitely the impression one gets, and it's a very accurate assessment of the economics and geography of luxury real estate in those areas!
In a neighborhood like Bel Air:
Guest Houses: Having a separate guest house (or pool house with facilities) generally means you have a larger lot size to accommodate the main house, a pool, and the secondary structure, which puts it into the ultra-luxury tier.
Tennis Courts: As we discussed, a full-sized, flat tennis court is the ultimate sign of wealth and property size in the hills. It requires either buying a very rare, naturally flat lot, or spending millions on major earth-moving and engineering to create that flat space.
If a property in the Bel Air hills has both a tennis court and a proper guest house, it means it's likely an immense, multi-acre estate on one of the best and largest pieces of usable land available—placing it in the very top echelon of the super-rich.
in bel air.. what's this reservoir on stone canyon rd
That large body of water you're seeing on Stone Canyon Road is the Stone Canyon Reservoir complex, and your view is a glimpse into a critical, yet highly secured, piece of Los Angeles's water infrastructure.
It is a striking sight because it's essentially a large lake tucked right into the middle of the Bel Air hills.
Here are the key details about the reservoir:
Purpose and Function Water Supply: The Stone Canyon Reservoir Complex is owned by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP). It is a vital part of the Westside water subsystem, which supplies water to hundreds of thousands of residents in areas like West L.A., Pacific Palisades, and the UCLA campus.
Two Reservoirs: The complex contains two main bodies of water: the larger Lower Stone Canyon Reservoir (built in 1924) and the smaller Upper Stone Canyon Reservoir.
Why It Looks the Way It Does Security and Safety: If you noticed that the water body seems inaccessible or surrounded by fences, that is intentional. The entire 750-acre property is closed to the public and trespassing is strictly prohibited due to its critical role as a water supply source and for security reasons.
Modern Water Standards:
The Lower Stone Canyon Reservoir is typically kept full for emergency use only, such as for fire suppression (helicopters use it to refill during wildfires). It is an open body of water and is no longer used as a direct source of drinking water because it doesn't meet modern water quality standards.
The Upper Stone Canyon Reservoir was recently updated with a massive, 700,000-square-foot floating cover to protect the water quality and keep it in service.
Because it's a functioning and protected piece of infrastructure, you can't walk or hike around its perimeter, which is why it maintains that serene, undeveloped appearance in the middle of a densely populated luxury neighborhood.
The best public viewpoint is the Stone Canyon Overlook on Mulholland Drive, which provides a sweeping vista of the canyon and the lake-like reservoir.
Cause you had odd things in Laurel Canyon. that book, weird scenes inside the canyon.. where lots of these hippie characters, their parents were in the military. An odd place in laurel canyon was lookout mountain laboratory. You gotta wonder about like underground tunnel system that'd come out up there. I don't know.. Melcher though.. his mom.. seems like he was doing ok with the producer stuff and wasn't a 'rich kid'.. made his own money.
That's a fascinating connection you're making, bringing in the whole Laurel Canyon lore and the specific details of that era!
You're hitting on the core of the "weird scenes" narrative, which often links the counterculture and the rock scene with deep government secrecy in the hills.
Here is a breakdown of the specific points you raised:
Its Function: It was a secure, full-service Hollywood studio (with sound stages, screening rooms, and climate-controlled vaults) that was responsible for shooting, processing, and editing nearly all of the classified film footage of nuclear weapons tests, missile launches, and other defense projects for the Department of Defense and the Atomic Energy Commission.
The Tunnels & Secrecy: The facility itself was a well-fortified, 100,000-square-foot compound on Wonderland Avenue, burrowed deep into the hillside. While most accounts confirm large underground film vaults and bomb shelters, the idea of an extensive tunnel system is a persistent piece of local lore and neighborhood rumors that often accompanies these secret Cold War sites. It's built into the side of a mountain, so its subterranean components were naturally extensive.
Location vs. Bel Air: It's important to note LMAFS was on Wonderland Avenue in Laurel Canyon—geographically separate from the Stone Canyon/Benedict Canyon area of Bel Air/Beverly Hills, but still part of the secluded, winding, wealthy "Hollywood Hills" network.
The Doris Day Connection: Terry was the son of Doris Day (his father was her first husband, Al Jorden, but he was adopted by her third husband, Martin Melcher). This connection certainly gave him an immense leg up in the world, but...
He Made His Own Money: By the time he was living at 10050 Cielo Drive (the Sharon Tate house), Terry Melcher was a highly successful and wealthy record producer, not just a celebrity son.
He produced the first two albums for The Byrds, which included major hits like "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Turn! Turn! Turn!".
He also produced the popular band Paul Revere & The Raiders.
In the late 60s, he co-owned the rental property on Cielo Drive, indicating he was doing quite well financially from his music career before the tragic events of 1969.
[continued in part 20]