Seems clear to you, but at one time, the largest group of Christians on earth were Arians, who denied the divinity of Christ. If it's "clear," how could that be?
As for the Trinity, you're taking these separate, and disparate passages (wholistic you say), and putting them together to make a doctrine that this thing exists called the Trinity, and this is what is means or is composed of. Since such a wholistic approach must be made, then interpretation is a requirement. If interpretation is a requirement, of so many different passages, then there is a great possibility of different interpretations.
Well, I didn’t say “wholistic”, as you say, but, yes, interpretation is needed to read God’s Word. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. I’ve spelled out how the Bible references your questions. And yet, you still haven’t answered any of my questions with verse references. Why’s that?
Where’s the Pope referenced in the Bible? Why are Christians mentioned but not Catholics? Why do you follow a religion that has a clearly heretical leader? Seems strange, mon ami.
I do appreciate you answering mine, and I say that sincerely. I'm glad you admit that wide and wholistic (we might say learned) interpretation is necessary. However, can you take it one step further, and conclude that people can have different interpretations? This won't weaken your faith, or be an admission of defeat, btw. There are, after all, 40,000 different denominations because, well, different interpretations.
The Pope isn't referenced in the Bible, just the primacy of Peter as bishop of Rome. Paul and other reported to him, and he decided to get rid of the Jewish dietary laws, nobody else. And the first Christians were Catholics, they just didn't use the word "Catholic" because there was only one kind of Christian at the time. As for Francis, popes come and go; the alternatives are pretty shitty compared to Catholicism, full of heresies, but the Orthodox are not so bad I admit.
Of course others CAN have different interpretations (what’s to stop them?) but that doesn’t make their interpretations relevant or in line with God’s teachings. Some interpretations are blatantly opposed to God’s teachings (by design), in fact. Mormons have vastly different interpretations of God, the Bible, faith, and religion and they are so far out in left field that I consider them heathens and idolatrous worshippers. Have you ever debated a Mormon? There isn’t much common ground there.
We don’t agree that the first Christians were Catholics. I’m not sure what else there is to say about that. I’m getting old and I’ve known many Catholics, some actively speak of the Pope and God interchangeably, which I find blasphemous.
The Gospels meaning Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? It’s unclear when they were written, but sometime in the late first century wouldn’t surprise me.
Who's to say what's right and what's wrong? As you can see with interpreting the US Constitution, liberal or conservative justice come to very different opinions on what look like black and white issues.
As for those Catholics you knew, there is a particular Catholic heresy called papalism. It's no better or worse, than say, unitarianism. It is embarrassing though.
It doesn't help my argument, per se, but don't let anybody ever tell you that the Matthew and Mark were written after 70AD, it's athiestic scholars who want to push the dates back. Jesus predicted the temple destruction and it happened as he said it would, within one generation. There is strong evidence that they were written before the late 1st century.
Okay, that said, if Christ ascended to heaven in about 36 or so AD, and the Gospels written many years later. That would mean that the first Christians didn't rely on the Bible for their faith.
Seems clear to you, but at one time, the largest group of Christians on earth were Arians, who denied the divinity of Christ. If it's "clear," how could that be?
As for the Trinity, you're taking these separate, and disparate passages (wholistic you say), and putting them together to make a doctrine that this thing exists called the Trinity, and this is what is means or is composed of. Since such a wholistic approach must be made, then interpretation is a requirement. If interpretation is a requirement, of so many different passages, then there is a great possibility of different interpretations.
One last question. When were the Gospels written?
Well, I didn’t say “wholistic”, as you say, but, yes, interpretation is needed to read God’s Word. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. I’ve spelled out how the Bible references your questions. And yet, you still haven’t answered any of my questions with verse references. Why’s that?
Where’s the Pope referenced in the Bible? Why are Christians mentioned but not Catholics? Why do you follow a religion that has a clearly heretical leader? Seems strange, mon ami.
I do appreciate you answering mine, and I say that sincerely. I'm glad you admit that wide and wholistic (we might say learned) interpretation is necessary. However, can you take it one step further, and conclude that people can have different interpretations? This won't weaken your faith, or be an admission of defeat, btw. There are, after all, 40,000 different denominations because, well, different interpretations.
The Pope isn't referenced in the Bible, just the primacy of Peter as bishop of Rome. Paul and other reported to him, and he decided to get rid of the Jewish dietary laws, nobody else. And the first Christians were Catholics, they just didn't use the word "Catholic" because there was only one kind of Christian at the time. As for Francis, popes come and go; the alternatives are pretty shitty compared to Catholicism, full of heresies, but the Orthodox are not so bad I admit.
Now, when were the Gospels written?
Of course others CAN have different interpretations (what’s to stop them?) but that doesn’t make their interpretations relevant or in line with God’s teachings. Some interpretations are blatantly opposed to God’s teachings (by design), in fact. Mormons have vastly different interpretations of God, the Bible, faith, and religion and they are so far out in left field that I consider them heathens and idolatrous worshippers. Have you ever debated a Mormon? There isn’t much common ground there.
We don’t agree that the first Christians were Catholics. I’m not sure what else there is to say about that. I’m getting old and I’ve known many Catholics, some actively speak of the Pope and God interchangeably, which I find blasphemous.
The Gospels meaning Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? It’s unclear when they were written, but sometime in the late first century wouldn’t surprise me.
Who's to say what's right and what's wrong? As you can see with interpreting the US Constitution, liberal or conservative justice come to very different opinions on what look like black and white issues.
As for those Catholics you knew, there is a particular Catholic heresy called papalism. It's no better or worse, than say, unitarianism. It is embarrassing though.
It doesn't help my argument, per se, but don't let anybody ever tell you that the Matthew and Mark were written after 70AD, it's athiestic scholars who want to push the dates back. Jesus predicted the temple destruction and it happened as he said it would, within one generation. There is strong evidence that they were written before the late 1st century.
Okay, that said, if Christ ascended to heaven in about 36 or so AD, and the Gospels written many years later. That would mean that the first Christians didn't rely on the Bible for their faith.