When you are accused of being a bot, either through captcha or any other bot detection method - there is no reason or use in being offended at the accusation.
Make no mistake, I'm not offended, I just sense your disrespect.
I find it disrespectful when I'm attempting to have a rational conversation with someone and they repeatedly accuse me of "likely" being a bot as a way of discrediting me/my points in a conversation I am trying to be respectful in.
As we agree, it is somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible to determine with absolute certainty (in this scenario, anyhow) that you (or I) are a bot
We do not agree on this.
You have exhibited many bot like tendencies which continues to increase the chance that you are one.
Then the most logical solution would be to move to a medium where we can be more confident in the nature of the other person. Otherwise, giving likelihood to such a silly scenario is just disrespectful to the topic at hand as well as the conversation partner.
I'm not offended by any means, but that doesn't mean I need to tolerate disrespect. If I see it, I will call it out. I only have so much patience.
Obviously a person can be tested with such a turing test
Again, no. A Turing test is one that is administered to machine to test the functionality of the machine. It is not one that is administered to human beings.
Unless you can quote/cite a particular "lie" that i have not already refuted and dismissed, you should stop lying about "my dishonesty"
Again, I have already done that. If you review earlier in the conversation, I made specific reference to your previous dishonesty
Then stop acting like it! Get back on a meaningful topic and engage in productive conversation if you're able, or be silent.
I just sense your disrespect.
You make a lousy psychic. If you sense anything, it is annoyance at your proud and steadfast wasting of my time (speaking of "sensing disrespect"). The major difference is i don't care if you respect me or not. You should try it, if you can.
as a way of discrediting me/my points
First it was "as a way of derailing the conversation" (which only you have done and continue to do) and now it's to discredit you/your points?! Which is it?
You are really grasping at straws here. There is no audience to discredit you to! It's just us talking here (or, if you are a bot - just me). I don't think you've thought this through.
With all due respect, if you have valid points - get the f*ck on with them. This entire red herring of a tangent is your tactic (conscious or not) to avoid discussing any points whatsoever. The fact that i've allowed you to do so for SO long now demonstrates a, frankly, unwarranted abundance of respect for the conversation and for you (of course with the assumption you aren't a bot, and are capable of and interested in productive conversation)
We do not agree on this.
Really? In this scenario, on this site, in this conversation, you think there is a way to be 100% certain that you (or any online entity) is a bot? Again, i don't think you've thought this through - but i would be happy for you to demonstrate me wrong on this. No suggestions involving leaving the site are permissible, only use of this site, this conversation, and our words (aka "the scenario").
Then the most logical solution would be to move to a medium
This is the superior medium. If you can't conduct a meaningful conversation in this format (which necessarily involves avoiding bot like behavior), then you can't do it anywhere else.
In any case, as i've said repeatedly (and yet you still fail to grasp - bot detection +1) even if another online medium proved you weren't a bot (which it can't) - it would only establish you weren't a bot in that particular interaction - not in previous or future ones. It would be the "captcha" in the analogy, that once passed could not guarantee that a bot was not there previously and/or swapped in right afterwards.
I don't care if you are a bot or not. I only care for productive conversation - earnest rational discourse. If you are capable of that, then do it. Otherwise be silent.
Again, no
Try not acting like a child, if you can help it. The turing test can be applied to any entity purporting to be / presenting as human. I agree it is not its intended purpose, but your view that it CAN'T be is both silly and wrong. What on earth do you think would prevent you from applying it to a person?
Assuming you are a human, the turing test has already been applied to you - and you have failed.
Again, I have already done that
No, there are no accusations of lies that you provided which contain links/citations/quotes of mine which were not already addressed, refuted, and you did not contest the refutations of. If i am in error, please link to the one you have in mind.
Calling out your repeated disrespect is not the same as being offended. I can recognize when a person is trying to divert the topic as well as attempt to discredit me (both things can happen, they are not mutually exclusive) without being offended by it.
If anything, I'm just disappointed that you would rather resort to petty antics instead of addressing points directly. If you insist on carrying this assumption, which is showing disrespect by giving credence to such a silly idea, then it's best we move to a medium where we can be more confident
Really? In this scenario, on this site, in this conversation, you think there is a way to be 100% certain that you (or any online entity) is a bot?
Yes, I do. I know with 100% certainty that you are a human being that I have been interacting with.
it would only establish you weren't a bot in that particular interaction
And I would be thrilled to have that interaction with you. It would allow us to have the conversation in that particular interaction, and address our points more clearly!
You're making an excellent argument for why switching to video or audio would be the superior medium, so thank you! Now, it's a great opportunity for us to move to that medium.
I only care for productive conversation
Then let's have one in a medium where we can both be more confident that we are interacting with human beings.
The turing test can be applied to any entity purporting to be / presenting as human
The Turing test is a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behavior indistinguishable from a human.
Every human, by default, including me, passes the Turing test because their behavior is, inherently, human.
No, there are no accusations of lies that you provided which contain links/citations/quotes of mine which were not already addressed, refuted, and you did not contest the refutations of.
I have, a number of times, quoted you directly. I urge you to go back and reread the conversation. If you missed the quote, it is not my responsibility to feed you the information again, I'm sorry to say.
Calling out your repeated disrespect is not the same as being offended.
No one said it was. I said you were acting offended, and that you should stop if you can. A good way towards demonstrating your "lack of offense" would be to abandon this utter waste of time and get back on a topic of productive conversation - if you can.
You are free to feel disrespected any time you wish, but that was never my intention or action.
instead of addressing points directly
What points have i not addressed directly? Name one. I'll wait.
You haven't made ANY relevant points to respond to in somewhere around 20 comments because you've been too busy expressing how "offended" (which necessarily includes "disrespected", by the by) you are ad nauseaum.
it's best we move to a medium where we can be more confident
If you had read and understood my previous repeated responses to this incessant request, you would already understand why there isn't such a medium, why such a medium will never exist, and why even if such a medium could and did exist - it wouldn't matter because you still demonstrably lack the ability to have a productive conversation :( Feel free to demonstrate me wrong by engaging in productive conversation instead of this endless pity party.
I know with 100% certainty that you are a human being that I have been interacting with.
Then you are foolish. Nothing i've said couldn't be accomplished by a bot or bot/human (hybrid) team.
Then let's have one in a medium
This is the superior medium. Demonstrate that you are capable here, or be silent.
Every human, by default, including me, passes the Turing test because their behavior is, inherently, human.
And yet, you still failed it and appeared as bot-like to a human evaluating you. What does this teach you about the turing test (besides that it can obviously be used on you - a purported human)?
I have, a number of times, quoted you directly.
Yes, and just like the latest time - i have responded, refuted, and discarded your baseless accusations without any further contest from you. If you feel you still have further contest to levy on one of the previously addressed "lies" you erroneously claimed, please point out which one, or be silent.
Hi there, audience here. :-D I don't normally chime in but I felt compelled by the... unique rathole y'all have taken this discussion into.
Never have I seen two participants agree so vociferously that they're wasting breath, but also so unwilling to budge even an inch to resolve that situation! It's honestly fascinating: you're like two turtles duking it out by bopping each other gently on the shell, venturing nothing, yielding nothing, dedicated entirely to stubbornness-presented-as-patience.
Y'all are usually fairly interesting to read; but now you're being dull.
If it helps you reset the conversation and "get back on a topic of productive conversation", here are my takes on the recent points:
Modeler: Jack is right, defending this "Turing tests can only be used on bots" position is irrelevant at best. You're wasting words defending a semantic point of no value to the conversation. You've seemingly dug in only to avoid "losing a point," so to speak, not because it's important to the central debate. You're not gonna out-semantic Jack---that's like his whole schtick.
Jack: It's obviously rude to insinuate someone might be a bot, and hiding behind the distinction between "declaring" someone a bot or "using verbiage like 'likely'" is even ruder. This is kindergarten-level interpersonal stuff; there's no way you don't see why Modeler would feel disrespected or heck, even offended, by your statements. That rhetorical habit of yours is counter to the "productive conversation" you claim to love and belies the image you try to project of a calm rational interlocutor---knock it off. Leave that shit for the ragers and trolls, not one of the few people obviously actually trying to have a discussion with you.
And for the record, Jack: to an outside observer, Modeler doesn't seem to be behaving like a bot any more than you are; to my eyes, he's only demonstrating the same conversational stubbornness (e.g., refusal to yield trivial points, refusal to specifically cite to prior comments, insistence on semantic distinctions) that you yourself are guilty of.
Anyway, I'm hugely impressed and thankful for the stamina you both display in sticking to this conversation. And if you find gratification in lines of discussion like these, then by all means, continue. But it sounds like you don't, so instead can y'all please drop these irrelevant back-and-forths and get back to the interesting stuff, like satellites and accelerometers or whatever?
And I'm telling you you are mistaken. I am simply calling our your disrespect.
you've been too busy expressing how "offended" (which necessarily includes "disrespected", by the by) you are ad nauseaum.
Again, I am not offended. Sensing disrespect is not the same as being offended. You should try and drop that from your understanding.
If you had read and understood my previous repeated responses to this incessant request, you would already understand why there isn't such a medium
Of course there is. On video/audio, it is significantly more diffficult for a bot to pass as human, as real-time interaction and response is something that AI is not capable of to pass a Turing test. If you believe otherwise, then that's an interesting stance you have, but I would be extremely surprised if over video you still were not able to tell if I were human or not.
Then you are foolish
I would say it's foolish at this point to even consider the idea that you might be a bot. Only a fool would suggest such a thing. For instance, see here:
And yet, you still failed it and appeared as bot-like to a human evaluating you.
You say here that you are a human, so then why on earth would it be considered foolish for me to say that I am certain you are human? You insult me just for the sake of insulting me? Seems pretty illogical.
I make a correct evaluation of the person you are, and you call me foolish for thinking so. It seems you are just trying to be confrontational.
Make no mistake, I'm not offended, I just sense your disrespect.
I find it disrespectful when I'm attempting to have a rational conversation with someone and they repeatedly accuse me of "likely" being a bot as a way of discrediting me/my points in a conversation I am trying to be respectful in.
We do not agree on this.
Then the most logical solution would be to move to a medium where we can be more confident in the nature of the other person. Otherwise, giving likelihood to such a silly scenario is just disrespectful to the topic at hand as well as the conversation partner.
I'm not offended by any means, but that doesn't mean I need to tolerate disrespect. If I see it, I will call it out. I only have so much patience.
Again, no. A Turing test is one that is administered to machine to test the functionality of the machine. It is not one that is administered to human beings.
Again, I have already done that. If you review earlier in the conversation, I made specific reference to your previous dishonesty
Then stop acting like it! Get back on a meaningful topic and engage in productive conversation if you're able, or be silent.
You make a lousy psychic. If you sense anything, it is annoyance at your proud and steadfast wasting of my time (speaking of "sensing disrespect"). The major difference is i don't care if you respect me or not. You should try it, if you can.
First it was "as a way of derailing the conversation" (which only you have done and continue to do) and now it's to discredit you/your points?! Which is it?
You are really grasping at straws here. There is no audience to discredit you to! It's just us talking here (or, if you are a bot - just me). I don't think you've thought this through.
With all due respect, if you have valid points - get the f*ck on with them. This entire red herring of a tangent is your tactic (conscious or not) to avoid discussing any points whatsoever. The fact that i've allowed you to do so for SO long now demonstrates a, frankly, unwarranted abundance of respect for the conversation and for you (of course with the assumption you aren't a bot, and are capable of and interested in productive conversation)
Really? In this scenario, on this site, in this conversation, you think there is a way to be 100% certain that you (or any online entity) is a bot? Again, i don't think you've thought this through - but i would be happy for you to demonstrate me wrong on this. No suggestions involving leaving the site are permissible, only use of this site, this conversation, and our words (aka "the scenario").
This is the superior medium. If you can't conduct a meaningful conversation in this format (which necessarily involves avoiding bot like behavior), then you can't do it anywhere else.
In any case, as i've said repeatedly (and yet you still fail to grasp - bot detection +1) even if another online medium proved you weren't a bot (which it can't) - it would only establish you weren't a bot in that particular interaction - not in previous or future ones. It would be the "captcha" in the analogy, that once passed could not guarantee that a bot was not there previously and/or swapped in right afterwards.
I don't care if you are a bot or not. I only care for productive conversation - earnest rational discourse. If you are capable of that, then do it. Otherwise be silent.
Try not acting like a child, if you can help it. The turing test can be applied to any entity purporting to be / presenting as human. I agree it is not its intended purpose, but your view that it CAN'T be is both silly and wrong. What on earth do you think would prevent you from applying it to a person?
Assuming you are a human, the turing test has already been applied to you - and you have failed.
No, there are no accusations of lies that you provided which contain links/citations/quotes of mine which were not already addressed, refuted, and you did not contest the refutations of. If i am in error, please link to the one you have in mind.
Calling out your repeated disrespect is not the same as being offended. I can recognize when a person is trying to divert the topic as well as attempt to discredit me (both things can happen, they are not mutually exclusive) without being offended by it.
If anything, I'm just disappointed that you would rather resort to petty antics instead of addressing points directly. If you insist on carrying this assumption, which is showing disrespect by giving credence to such a silly idea, then it's best we move to a medium where we can be more confident
Yes, I do. I know with 100% certainty that you are a human being that I have been interacting with.
And I would be thrilled to have that interaction with you. It would allow us to have the conversation in that particular interaction, and address our points more clearly!
You're making an excellent argument for why switching to video or audio would be the superior medium, so thank you! Now, it's a great opportunity for us to move to that medium.
Then let's have one in a medium where we can both be more confident that we are interacting with human beings.
The Turing test is a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behavior indistinguishable from a human.
Every human, by default, including me, passes the Turing test because their behavior is, inherently, human.
I have, a number of times, quoted you directly. I urge you to go back and reread the conversation. If you missed the quote, it is not my responsibility to feed you the information again, I'm sorry to say.
No one said it was. I said you were acting offended, and that you should stop if you can. A good way towards demonstrating your "lack of offense" would be to abandon this utter waste of time and get back on a topic of productive conversation - if you can.
You are free to feel disrespected any time you wish, but that was never my intention or action.
What points have i not addressed directly? Name one. I'll wait.
You haven't made ANY relevant points to respond to in somewhere around 20 comments because you've been too busy expressing how "offended" (which necessarily includes "disrespected", by the by) you are ad nauseaum.
If you had read and understood my previous repeated responses to this incessant request, you would already understand why there isn't such a medium, why such a medium will never exist, and why even if such a medium could and did exist - it wouldn't matter because you still demonstrably lack the ability to have a productive conversation :( Feel free to demonstrate me wrong by engaging in productive conversation instead of this endless pity party.
Then you are foolish. Nothing i've said couldn't be accomplished by a bot or bot/human (hybrid) team.
This is the superior medium. Demonstrate that you are capable here, or be silent.
And yet, you still failed it and appeared as bot-like to a human evaluating you. What does this teach you about the turing test (besides that it can obviously be used on you - a purported human)?
Yes, and just like the latest time - i have responded, refuted, and discarded your baseless accusations without any further contest from you. If you feel you still have further contest to levy on one of the previously addressed "lies" you erroneously claimed, please point out which one, or be silent.
Hi there, audience here. :-D I don't normally chime in but I felt compelled by the... unique rathole y'all have taken this discussion into.
Never have I seen two participants agree so vociferously that they're wasting breath, but also so unwilling to budge even an inch to resolve that situation! It's honestly fascinating: you're like two turtles duking it out by bopping each other gently on the shell, venturing nothing, yielding nothing, dedicated entirely to stubbornness-presented-as-patience.
Y'all are usually fairly interesting to read; but now you're being dull.
If it helps you reset the conversation and "get back on a topic of productive conversation", here are my takes on the recent points:
Modeler: Jack is right, defending this "Turing tests can only be used on bots" position is irrelevant at best. You're wasting words defending a semantic point of no value to the conversation. You've seemingly dug in only to avoid "losing a point," so to speak, not because it's important to the central debate. You're not gonna out-semantic Jack---that's like his whole schtick.
Jack: It's obviously rude to insinuate someone might be a bot, and hiding behind the distinction between "declaring" someone a bot or "using verbiage like 'likely'" is even ruder. This is kindergarten-level interpersonal stuff; there's no way you don't see why Modeler would feel disrespected or heck, even offended, by your statements. That rhetorical habit of yours is counter to the "productive conversation" you claim to love and belies the image you try to project of a calm rational interlocutor---knock it off. Leave that shit for the ragers and trolls, not one of the few people obviously actually trying to have a discussion with you.
And for the record, Jack: to an outside observer, Modeler doesn't seem to be behaving like a bot any more than you are; to my eyes, he's only demonstrating the same conversational stubbornness (e.g., refusal to yield trivial points, refusal to specifically cite to prior comments, insistence on semantic distinctions) that you yourself are guilty of.
Anyway, I'm hugely impressed and thankful for the stamina you both display in sticking to this conversation. And if you find gratification in lines of discussion like these, then by all means, continue. But it sounds like you don't, so instead can y'all please drop these irrelevant back-and-forths and get back to the interesting stuff, like satellites and accelerometers or whatever?
And I'm telling you you are mistaken. I am simply calling our your disrespect.
Again, I am not offended. Sensing disrespect is not the same as being offended. You should try and drop that from your understanding.
Of course there is. On video/audio, it is significantly more diffficult for a bot to pass as human, as real-time interaction and response is something that AI is not capable of to pass a Turing test. If you believe otherwise, then that's an interesting stance you have, but I would be extremely surprised if over video you still were not able to tell if I were human or not.
I would say it's foolish at this point to even consider the idea that you might be a bot. Only a fool would suggest such a thing. For instance, see here:
You say here that you are a human, so then why on earth would it be considered foolish for me to say that I am certain you are human? You insult me just for the sake of insulting me? Seems pretty illogical.
I make a correct evaluation of the person you are, and you call me foolish for thinking so. It seems you are just trying to be confrontational.