It was reconstructed wrongly, they say, based on them not noticing the distortion. According to your image, if it's correct, they didn't have the other half of the pelvis. Dinosaur bones were also put together wrong for various reasons, to include not fully understanding their anatomy compared to modern animals, for the same reasons as Lucy's skeleton.
I understand this leads to skepticism, a healthy dose of it. The theory of evolution has holes you could drive a truck though. But this reconstruction alone is not a nail in the coffin for me.
I'm not sure that bonobos having vagus knees matters unless it's claimed that bonobos aren't decedents from a common ancestor. Some primates down the line got vagus knees, like bonobos, and some didn't, like chimps.
The article you linked two notes it was not just the knees, it was the femoral head and the greater trochanter (which I had to look up, it's been years since I took anatomy) which is the bulge on the opposite of the femoral head, that leads them to conclude that Lucy walked upright. There there are apparently enough differences to show that Lucy walked upright.
The conclusion anthropology makes is that Lucy is the missing link. The brain size is tiny. Which means it's not. What they did find, was evidence of a humanoid that walked upright from about 3.2 million years ago.
Anyway, I try to remember it's (usually) a human being on the other end of any interaction.
I fully understand the argument as to why they re-reconstructed it. I just think it lacks credibility: During the fossilization process, the pelvic bone distorted. This distortion just happened to make it look like a normal chimp pelvic bone. It looked so much like a normal ape pelvic that the World renowned paleoanthropologist, Donald Johanson of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, reconstructed it wrong…
I think that is a bit fishy. Additionally, couldn’t “distortions” account for many more differences?
Besides the re-reconstructed pelvic bone, Lucy and the bonobo are almost identical. The bonobo’s knees (and several other skeletal features) are relevant, because it shows how similar the bonobo is to Lucy. The bonobo is WAY more similar to Lucy than the normal chimp.
Do you agree that it is disingenuous to compare Lucy to a normal chimp when the bonobo is so much more alike?
Try to find one article or study comparing Lucy to a bonobo. Keep in mind, there are hundreds of articles comparing Lucy to a normal chimp. And they all use how different the normal chimp is from Lucy as proof of Lucy being a missing link. Almost all these differences vanish when comparing Lucy to a bonobo.
Keep in mind, at no point did I say anything about evolution. Me questioning the legitimacy of Lucy is not me questioning evolution. I like to keep my arguments narrow.
Please, the whole point of questioning Lucy is to question the theory of evolution.
Is it fishy, yes, but the other points about the knees and femur you're not questioning.
Do chimps and bonobos have a common ancestor? I honestly don't know. But that bonobo knees are the same as Lucy's knees does not bear any relation to the differences in the femur, let alone that fact that bonobos don't walk upright, whereas Lucy apparently did.
Questioning is how science works. To say I can’t question one evidence line of evolution without questioning all of evolution… sounds like a religion.
There is nothing to question about the knees and femur. The bonobo chimp has valgus knees and an identical femoral head and neck. And the bonobo ALSO walks upright.
"Questioning" is not how science works, that's a silly talking point that took off because covid tyranny. Science, more formally, is a process of knowledge acquisition that comes from making testable "questions," called hypotheses, and then sharing the results, which people talk/write about. Alchemy would have turned into chemistry in the Middle Ages ago but for the fact that everyone was working in secret.
I agree that scientism is akin to a materialist religion, and evolution advocates are particularly guilty of that fallacy. Let me lay my cards on the table, as a Christian, my denomination (and I) believe that God could use evolution to create modern human. Evolution as an ex nihilo explanation for humanity is wrong on the evidence.
The bonobo does not walk upright. Like chimps, they can for short distances. They are not like humans, who walk upright as a matter of course. That's very disingenuous of you to write.
Yea, the reconstruction story is fishy, but that's just the pelvis, not the knees and the femur. One maybe, sorta, kinda bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, at least in this instance.
It was reconstructed wrongly, they say, based on them not noticing the distortion. According to your image, if it's correct, they didn't have the other half of the pelvis. Dinosaur bones were also put together wrong for various reasons, to include not fully understanding their anatomy compared to modern animals, for the same reasons as Lucy's skeleton.
I understand this leads to skepticism, a healthy dose of it. The theory of evolution has holes you could drive a truck though. But this reconstruction alone is not a nail in the coffin for me.
I'm not sure that bonobos having vagus knees matters unless it's claimed that bonobos aren't decedents from a common ancestor. Some primates down the line got vagus knees, like bonobos, and some didn't, like chimps.
The article you linked two notes it was not just the knees, it was the femoral head and the greater trochanter (which I had to look up, it's been years since I took anatomy) which is the bulge on the opposite of the femoral head, that leads them to conclude that Lucy walked upright. There there are apparently enough differences to show that Lucy walked upright.
The conclusion anthropology makes is that Lucy is the missing link. The brain size is tiny. Which means it's not. What they did find, was evidence of a humanoid that walked upright from about 3.2 million years ago.
Anyway, I try to remember it's (usually) a human being on the other end of any interaction.
I fully understand the argument as to why they re-reconstructed it. I just think it lacks credibility: During the fossilization process, the pelvic bone distorted. This distortion just happened to make it look like a normal chimp pelvic bone. It looked so much like a normal ape pelvic that the World renowned paleoanthropologist, Donald Johanson of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, reconstructed it wrong…
I think that is a bit fishy. Additionally, couldn’t “distortions” account for many more differences?
Besides the re-reconstructed pelvic bone, Lucy and the bonobo are almost identical. The bonobo’s knees (and several other skeletal features) are relevant, because it shows how similar the bonobo is to Lucy. The bonobo is WAY more similar to Lucy than the normal chimp.
Do you agree that it is disingenuous to compare Lucy to a normal chimp when the bonobo is so much more alike?
Try to find one article or study comparing Lucy to a bonobo. Keep in mind, there are hundreds of articles comparing Lucy to a normal chimp. And they all use how different the normal chimp is from Lucy as proof of Lucy being a missing link. Almost all these differences vanish when comparing Lucy to a bonobo.
Keep in mind, at no point did I say anything about evolution. Me questioning the legitimacy of Lucy is not me questioning evolution. I like to keep my arguments narrow.
Please, the whole point of questioning Lucy is to question the theory of evolution.
Is it fishy, yes, but the other points about the knees and femur you're not questioning.
Do chimps and bonobos have a common ancestor? I honestly don't know. But that bonobo knees are the same as Lucy's knees does not bear any relation to the differences in the femur, let alone that fact that bonobos don't walk upright, whereas Lucy apparently did.
Questioning is how science works. To say I can’t question one evidence line of evolution without questioning all of evolution… sounds like a religion.
There is nothing to question about the knees and femur. The bonobo chimp has valgus knees and an identical femoral head and neck. And the bonobo ALSO walks upright.
Source for bonobo upright walk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSYQ9l-Xdw Source for femur, Just some ronding from age and maybe some “distortion”: https://gab.com/TheGreyGuy/posts/110069194596937737
You agree with most, if not all my points. We just came up with a different conclusion. Which is fine!
1- Lucy was originally reconstructed to have a normal ape pelvic bone.
2- later it was re-reconstructed to look human.
3- the reconstruction story is “fishy.”
4- Lucy and the bonobo look almost identical, and any differences can be explained with “distortions” from fossilizing.
5- Despite the similarities, there are no studies comparing them (fishy), but tons comparing them to chimpanzees. I made this to highlight my point. https://gab.com/TheGreyGuy/posts/110069336445670561
"Questioning" is not how science works, that's a silly talking point that took off because covid tyranny. Science, more formally, is a process of knowledge acquisition that comes from making testable "questions," called hypotheses, and then sharing the results, which people talk/write about. Alchemy would have turned into chemistry in the Middle Ages ago but for the fact that everyone was working in secret.
I agree that scientism is akin to a materialist religion, and evolution advocates are particularly guilty of that fallacy. Let me lay my cards on the table, as a Christian, my denomination (and I) believe that God could use evolution to create modern human. Evolution as an ex nihilo explanation for humanity is wrong on the evidence.
The bonobo does not walk upright. Like chimps, they can for short distances. They are not like humans, who walk upright as a matter of course. That's very disingenuous of you to write.
Yea, the reconstruction story is fishy, but that's just the pelvis, not the knees and the femur. One maybe, sorta, kinda bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, at least in this instance.
Do bonobos and Lucy have a common ancestor?