I would say that value is in having a secure and independent worldwide network for exchanging tokens that requires no 3rd-party trust. That is, bitcoin's value is in the utility of network and the technology itself. To say it has "no value" has never been a good argument. As the network becomes more decentralized its value goes up. As more farmers accept bitcoin as an alternative to government controlled currencies, its value goes up. Presumably, those farmers would have to have a reason to make the switch and that is becoming more likely every year.
To say it has no value relates to its lack of a physical state. Gold has value outside of being used for currency as it can be made into jewelry, tooth fillings, plate electronics for anti-corrosion and thermal characteristics, or just sit on your desk and keep your papers from flying off when the door opens. Fiat currency, if it goes completely worthless, could be burned for heat/cooking in the case of paper bills and melted down in the case of coins and made into something else. Bitcoin and digital currencies have none of these possibilities. They’re merely a digital token to be used for exchange and that’s it. No use outside of that, no way to use them for something else and if the network is compromised or taken down, then completely worthless is the proper description. It’s like an online game that shut off its servers. I had one billion VDollars in 10Six, then the owners shut the game down, now I have none, that kind of a deal.
I can see the point you're trying to make, but I'm not persuaded by the argument that everything needs to have secondary utility to be valuable. The food I eat is only valuable for one thing and then it becomes worthless after I'm finished consuming it (don't even try to make a point about humanure, haha!). I also don't buy the argument that bitcoin can be shut down like a game server because it's not centralized or controlled by anyone - if one server is shut down, another one can be started up anywhere in the world.
Its value would be destroyed if the encryption scheme is broken, but that's easier said than done. I guess I just see huge value in a means of exchange that is outside of government control, that anyone in the world can access with little expense, that does not require me to trust the people involved in the transaction and can't be counterfeited. It's a better form of money than we currently use... though there is still a ton of uncertainty surrounding crypto so I don't blame anyone for doubting it at this stage. Most of the people involved right now are mostly speculating in it, giving it bad impression for people who are risk-averse. It's not stable enough to be used as a day-to-day currency, yet.
I see you’re not starry eyed and can actually see some of the draw backs. That’s great, many pushing crypto see it as digital Jesus here to save the world with no flaws, and that’s just not the case.
As for the humanure lol, of course it has value! You can add a paper bag and leave it aflame on a doorstep for the entertainment value! In seriousness the food you consume gives you value and is a consumable good, and after you’ve consumed it, that’s end of transaction. You get your nutrition and calories and heal and repair your body with it, and excrete the waste and have no obligation to use it further. Most things you buy you expect to use more than once. We don’t have one time use tv’s for example. Repurposing items to extend the life of the resource is beneficial both for the environment(which if I’m honest is something I worry about the least) and for economical reasons. Using scrap metal to weld a plate on my tractor instead of going out and buying a new piece of steel is simply cheaper. When preparing for a “shit hits the fan” scenario, having everything be useful in more than one way is the only way to go. I can trade my alcohol I brewed at home for flour at a nearby Mennonite colony, distill it and use the alcohol to fuel my gasoline engines in vehicles, garden tiller etc, or I can simply drink it like I do. Raw goods have value in their initial state and can be used for trade or in other ways. Bitcoin simply can not. It’s an exchange token, nothing more. When prepping for the world going to hell, I don’t spend much time having a stash of digital tokens to order stuff from abroad since I can’t count on there being distribution networks to get me said goods, electricity to power the network or even my local area. And I can’t count on local people taking it since no one was taking it before things went to hell. Having goods and bullets stocked and prepared to me is a far better bet than gold or bitcoin. You can’t eat gold, you can’t eat bitcoin, but you can trade a side of beef for flour eggs and potato’s.
Using bitcoin instead of USD for online exchanges may be in the cards but for day to do transactions on the local level, adoption will be painfully slow in rural areas, if it is at all. Look how long it took just to get interac/debit machines widespread. Cities are one thing but most of the world isn’t in a city.
Yeah, I agree with all of that... but for most people it's not reasonable to expect them to do things the old way and be self-sufficient. It's a way of life most people have moved away from, so these people need a common token of exchange. In a worst-case scenario these people probably won't have the resources to make it and you're right, bitcoin or gold wouldn't save them.
But what about a less severe scenario, like a slow descent into fiat currency endgame (which I find more likely than complete and sudden collapse), where people have time to adapt and make decisions to protect themselves. People would still be producing things, still go to work and earn a paycheck, but everyone is looking for a way to protect themselves from devaluation. They would naturally have to consider a competing currency, like crypto.
I would say that value is in having a secure and independent worldwide network for exchanging tokens that requires no 3rd-party trust. That is, bitcoin's value is in the utility of network and the technology itself. To say it has "no value" has never been a good argument. As the network becomes more decentralized its value goes up. As more farmers accept bitcoin as an alternative to government controlled currencies, its value goes up. Presumably, those farmers would have to have a reason to make the switch and that is becoming more likely every year.
To say it has no value relates to its lack of a physical state. Gold has value outside of being used for currency as it can be made into jewelry, tooth fillings, plate electronics for anti-corrosion and thermal characteristics, or just sit on your desk and keep your papers from flying off when the door opens. Fiat currency, if it goes completely worthless, could be burned for heat/cooking in the case of paper bills and melted down in the case of coins and made into something else. Bitcoin and digital currencies have none of these possibilities. They’re merely a digital token to be used for exchange and that’s it. No use outside of that, no way to use them for something else and if the network is compromised or taken down, then completely worthless is the proper description. It’s like an online game that shut off its servers. I had one billion VDollars in 10Six, then the owners shut the game down, now I have none, that kind of a deal.
I can see the point you're trying to make, but I'm not persuaded by the argument that everything needs to have secondary utility to be valuable. The food I eat is only valuable for one thing and then it becomes worthless after I'm finished consuming it (don't even try to make a point about humanure, haha!). I also don't buy the argument that bitcoin can be shut down like a game server because it's not centralized or controlled by anyone - if one server is shut down, another one can be started up anywhere in the world.
Its value would be destroyed if the encryption scheme is broken, but that's easier said than done. I guess I just see huge value in a means of exchange that is outside of government control, that anyone in the world can access with little expense, that does not require me to trust the people involved in the transaction and can't be counterfeited. It's a better form of money than we currently use... though there is still a ton of uncertainty surrounding crypto so I don't blame anyone for doubting it at this stage. Most of the people involved right now are mostly speculating in it, giving it bad impression for people who are risk-averse. It's not stable enough to be used as a day-to-day currency, yet.
I see you’re not starry eyed and can actually see some of the draw backs. That’s great, many pushing crypto see it as digital Jesus here to save the world with no flaws, and that’s just not the case. As for the humanure lol, of course it has value! You can add a paper bag and leave it aflame on a doorstep for the entertainment value! In seriousness the food you consume gives you value and is a consumable good, and after you’ve consumed it, that’s end of transaction. You get your nutrition and calories and heal and repair your body with it, and excrete the waste and have no obligation to use it further. Most things you buy you expect to use more than once. We don’t have one time use tv’s for example. Repurposing items to extend the life of the resource is beneficial both for the environment(which if I’m honest is something I worry about the least) and for economical reasons. Using scrap metal to weld a plate on my tractor instead of going out and buying a new piece of steel is simply cheaper. When preparing for a “shit hits the fan” scenario, having everything be useful in more than one way is the only way to go. I can trade my alcohol I brewed at home for flour at a nearby Mennonite colony, distill it and use the alcohol to fuel my gasoline engines in vehicles, garden tiller etc, or I can simply drink it like I do. Raw goods have value in their initial state and can be used for trade or in other ways. Bitcoin simply can not. It’s an exchange token, nothing more. When prepping for the world going to hell, I don’t spend much time having a stash of digital tokens to order stuff from abroad since I can’t count on there being distribution networks to get me said goods, electricity to power the network or even my local area. And I can’t count on local people taking it since no one was taking it before things went to hell. Having goods and bullets stocked and prepared to me is a far better bet than gold or bitcoin. You can’t eat gold, you can’t eat bitcoin, but you can trade a side of beef for flour eggs and potato’s. Using bitcoin instead of USD for online exchanges may be in the cards but for day to do transactions on the local level, adoption will be painfully slow in rural areas, if it is at all. Look how long it took just to get interac/debit machines widespread. Cities are one thing but most of the world isn’t in a city.
Yeah, I agree with all of that... but for most people it's not reasonable to expect them to do things the old way and be self-sufficient. It's a way of life most people have moved away from, so these people need a common token of exchange. In a worst-case scenario these people probably won't have the resources to make it and you're right, bitcoin or gold wouldn't save them.
But what about a less severe scenario, like a slow descent into fiat currency endgame (which I find more likely than complete and sudden collapse), where people have time to adapt and make decisions to protect themselves. People would still be producing things, still go to work and earn a paycheck, but everyone is looking for a way to protect themselves from devaluation. They would naturally have to consider a competing currency, like crypto.