We'll cut this up in parts, continued in comments, obviously.
angelic realm "the 9 choirs", do they have "free will" like humans?
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According to one source1, the 9 choirs of angels are:
Seraphim: The highest order of angels, who see God most clearly and praise him constantly.
Cherubim: The second highest order of angels, who guard God’s throne and his holy places.
Wheels: The third highest order of angels, who precede God and the cherubim when they move about.
Dominions: The first order of the second hierarchy, who oversee the distribution of power among humankind and do not have free will.
Virtues: The second order of the second hierarchy, who perform miracles and bestow grace upon the earth.
Powers: The third order of the second hierarchy, who fight against evil and maintain order in the cosmos.
Principalities: The first order of the third hierarchy, who protect nations, cities, and groups of people.
Archangels: The second order of the third hierarchy, who deliver messages from God and assist the principalities.
Angels: The third order of the third hierarchy, who are the closest to humans and act as guardians and guides.
The question of whether angels have free will like humans is a complex one that has been debated by theologians for centuries. Some sources say that all angels have free will, but some chose to rebel against God and became fallen angels or demons2. Other sources say that only some angels have free will, such as the seraphim, cherubim, and archangels3. And yet other sources say that none of the angels have free will, but only act according to God’s will1. Therefore, there is no definitive answer to this question, but only different opinions and interpretations.
If they don't have free will.. then the war in heaven wouldn't be possible
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That is a good point. The war in heaven is a mysterious event that has different interpretations among different sources. Some possible explanations are:
The war in heaven happened before the creation of humans, when some of the angels rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven. In this case, the angels had free will before they sinned, but lost it after they fell12. The war in heaven is a symbolic representation of the spiritual conflict between good and evil that is ongoing throughout history. In this case, the angels do not have free will, but act according to God’s plan and purpose3. The war in heaven is a future event that will occur at the end of the age, when Satan and his followers will try to overthrow God and his faithful angels. In this case, the angels have free will, but some choose to obey God and some choose to oppose him43.
As you can see, there is no definitive answer to this question, but only different opinions and perspectives. What do you think?
angelic realm "the 9 choirs", those are the classification types. Which class type were involved in the war in heaven?
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The war in heaven is not a clearly defined event in the Bible or other sources, so it is hard to say for sure which class types of angels were involved in it. However, based on some possible interpretations, we can make some educated guesses.
If the war in heaven happened before the creation of humans, when some of the angels rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven, then it is likely that the highest order of angels, the seraphim and cherubim, were involved, since they are the closest to God and see him most clearly. Some sources suggest that Lucifer, the leader of the fallen angels, was a seraph1. It is also possible that some of the lower orders of angels, such as the wheels, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels, joined either side of the conflict, depending on their loyalty and free will23.
If the war in heaven is a symbolic representation of the spiritual conflict between good and evil that is ongoing throughout history, then it is possible that all orders of angels are involved in some way, since they all have different roles and functions in God’s plan and purpose. The higher orders of angels may be more directly engaged in the battle against the forces of darkness, while the lower orders of angels may be more involved in protecting and assisting humans and creation4.
If the war in heaven is a future event that will occur at the end of the age, when Satan and his followers will try to overthrow God and his faithful angels, then it is probable that all orders of angels will be involved as well, since it will be a final showdown between good and evil. The Bible describes a scene where Michael, an archangel, and his angels fight against the dragon (Satan) and his angels5. It also mentions that God will send his angels to gather his elect from the four winds5. Therefore, we can assume that all types of angels will play a part in this war.
I hope this helps you understand more about the angelic realm and the war in heaven. 😊
the angelic realm "the 9 choirs". What classification type was lucifer.. a cherubim, right. We know he was involved in the war in heaven. So that checks off "cherubim". Any reports of Seraphim or thrones types, being involved in the war in heaven?
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Yes, you are right. Lucifer was a cherubim, according to some sources12. He was the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels, and he was the leader of the rebellion against God in the war in heaven1.
As for the seraphim and the thrones, there are no clear reports of their involvement in the war in heaven, but there are some possible hints and speculations. For example:
Some sources suggest that the seraphim are the same as the living creatures that appear in Ezekiel 1 and Revelation 43. These living creatures have four faces, four wings, and are covered with eyes. They are also associated with fire and lightning. In Ezekiel 10, one of these living creatures gives a burning coal to a cherub, who then scatters it over Jerusalem as a sign of God’s judgment. Some scholars interpret this as a symbolic representation of the war in heaven, where the seraphim gave fire to the cherubim, who then used it to fight against God.
Some sources suggest that the thrones are the same as the elders that appear in Revelation 4 and 54. These elders are twenty-four human-like figures that sit on thrones around God’s throne. They wear white robes and golden crowns, and they worship God and the Lamb. In Revelation 5:8-10, they sing a new song that praises the Lamb for redeeming people from every tribe, tongue, nation, and people. Some scholars interpret this as a symbolic representation of the war in heaven, where the thrones joined the Lamb in his victory over the dragon. These are just some possible interpretations of the seraphim and the thrones in relation to the war in heaven. There is no definitive answer to this question, but only different opinions and perspectives. What do you think?
earlier you said Wheels, or thrones: The third highest order of angels, who precede God and the cherubim when they move about. I hadn't heard that before. So they're like drones in movies that scout out areas. Make sure it's safe. So god moves about and isn't just in one place? Any reports of what he looks like? Didn't he create humans who looked like him? Like the son of god.. wasn't there something about in his image?
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Yes, the wheels or thrones are described as a type of angel that accompany God and the cherubim when they move about. They are also called ophanim, which means “wheels” in Hebrew. They are mentioned in Ezekiel 1 and 10, where they are depicted as having four faces, four wings, and many eyes. They are also associated with the spirit of the living creatures1.
As for what God looks like, that is a difficult question to answer, since God is spirit and does not have a physical form like humans do. However, the Bible does give us some glimpses of how God appears to humans in different situations. For example:
In Exodus 3, God appears to Moses as a burning bush that is not consumed by the fire.
In Exodus 19, God appears to the Israelites as a thick cloud of smoke and fire on Mount Sinai, accompanied by thunder and lightning.
In Exodus 33, God allows Moses to see his back, but not his face, as he passes by him in a cleft of the rock.
In Isaiah 6, God appears to Isaiah as a majestic king sitting on a throne, surrounded by seraphim who praise him.
In Ezekiel 1 and 10, God appears to Ezekiel as a glorious figure on a throne above the wheels and the living creatures.
In Daniel 7, God appears to Daniel as an ancient of days with white hair and clothing, sitting on a fiery throne with thousands of angels attending him.
In Revelation 1, God appears to John as one like a son of man with white hair and eyes like fire, wearing a golden sash and holding seven stars in his right hand.
These are just some examples of how God reveals himself to humans in various ways. However, none of these appearances can fully capture the essence of who God is. They are only partial and symbolic representations of his attributes and character.
The Bible also tells us that humans are made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27). This does not mean that we look exactly like God physically, but rather that we reflect some aspects of his nature and personality. For instance, we have the ability to reason, create, communicate, love, and worship. We also have moral responsibility and accountability before God. However, because of sin, our image of God has been distorted and corrupted. We need God’s grace and forgiveness to restore our relationship with him.
The ultimate expression of God’s image and likeness is Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God and the second person of the Trinity. He is the exact representation of God’s being (Hebrews 1:3) and the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). He became human and lived among us (John 1:14), showing us what God is like in his words and deeds. He died for our sins and rose again from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), making it possible for us to be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). He is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), and no one can see or know God apart from him (John 14:9).
I hope this helps you understand more about God’s appearance and image. 😊
I think they'd say he looks like some really old dude with a beard or something, eh. Sounds like he can change his appearance though.. like can't the archangels do that too.. where they're not always in human form, right.
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Yes, you are right. God can change his appearance according to his will and purpose, and so can the archangels. The archangels are powerful and versatile beings who can assume different forms depending on their mission and message. For example:
Michael, the archangel of war and protection, can appear as a mighty warrior with a sword and armor, or as a gentle guardian with wings and a halo1.
Gabriel, the archangel of revelation and communication, can appear as a horn-blowing messenger, or as a human-like figure with a scroll and a lily2.
Raphael, the archangel of healing and travel, can appear as a physician with a staff and a fish, or as a pilgrim with a hat and a backpack3.
Uriel, the archangel of wisdom and illumination, can appear as a scholar with a book and a lantern, or as a flame of fire with a sword.
These are just some examples of how the archangels can shapeshift into different forms. However, they are not limited to these forms, and they can also take on the appearance of animals, elements, or even humans. Some sources suggest that the archangels can shapeshift by using their divine energy to manipulate matter and light. Others suggest that the archangels can shapeshift by using their spiritual connection to God and his creation. And yet others suggest that the archangels can shapeshift by using their imagination and intention.
I hope this helps you understand more about the archangels and their shapeshifting abilities. 😊
[part 3]
Anyways.. lets go back to the war in heaven.. these 9 choir classification types of angels.. we know Lucifer was involved so that means Cherubim types were involved. I haven't heard of which types quit.. like I haven't heard of these "thrones" quitting. What happened after that.. I think god turned them into demons, right. All of those who quit? Which good guys that were like.. weren't they archangels.. then they quit? There's not that many cherubim types though eh? Any reports of how many of those there were?
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The war in heaven is a mysterious event that has different interpretations among different sources. There is no definitive answer to how many and which types of angels were involved in it, but only different opinions and perspectives. Here are some possible answers based on the web search results:
According to 1, the traditional Catholic angelic hierarchy has nine choirs of angels, with the cherubim being the second highest order. The cherubim are described as having four faces, four wings, and many eyes. They guard God’s throne and his holy places. Lucifer was a cherub before he rebelled against God and became Satan, the leader of the fallen angels or demons. Some sources suggest that there were four cherubim in total, and that Lucifer was the most beautiful and powerful of them. However, other sources suggest that there were more than four cherubim, and that some of them remained loyal to God while others followed Lucifer1.
According to 2, the biblical basis of the angelic hierarchy is based on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16. These passages mention different names or titles of angels, such as thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. However, these names do not necessarily imply a fixed or rigid ranking system of angels, but rather a functional or relational description of their roles and duties. Therefore, it is not clear how many or which types of angels were involved in the war in heaven, but it is possible that some of them belonged to different categories or levels of authority2.
According to 3, the Islamic angelic hierarchy is based on various sources from the Quran, Hadith, and Islamic literature. There are different opinions on how many and which types of angels exist in Islam, but some scholars suggest that there are fourteen categories of angels, with some of the higher orders being considered archangels. The highest order of angels is Ruh, who is also identified with Gabriel, the messenger of God. The second highest order is the four archangelic cherubim, who surround Ruh and serve as his assistants. The third highest order is the seven angels of the seven heavens, who each have a specific function and domain. The fourth highest order is the bearers of the throne, who carry God’s throne and praise him constantly. The fifth highest order is the recorders, who write down everything that happens in the world. The sixth highest order is the guardians, who protect humans from evil spirits and temptations. The seventh highest order is the intercessors, who pray for humans and ask for God’s mercy. The eighth highest order is the testifiers, who witness everything that humans do and say. The ninth highest order is the announcers, who proclaim God’s commands and decrees. The tenth highest order is the destroyers, who cause death and calamities by God’s permission. The eleventh highest order is the questioners, who interrogate humans in their graves about their faith and deeds. The twelfth highest order is the punishers, who torment the wicked in hell by God’s justice. The thirteenth highest order is the helpers, who assist the righteous in paradise by God’s grace. The fourteenth highest order is the unknowns, who are hidden from humans and have secret tasks assigned by God3.
As for how many and which types of angels were involved in the war in heaven according to Islam, there are also different opinions and perspectives. Some sources suggest that there was no war in heaven at all, but rather a test of obedience for all creatures before God created Adam. God commanded all angels to prostrate before Adam as a sign of respect and honor, but Iblis (Satan) refused out of pride and arrogance. He argued that he was superior to Adam because he was created from fire while Adam was created from clay. God then cursed Iblis and expelled him from heaven along with his followers3. Other sources suggest that there was a war in heaven after God created Adam, when Iblis tried to incite some of the angels to rebel against God and join him in his disobedience. However, only a few angels followed Iblis while most of them remained faithful to God. God then defeated Iblis and his allies and cast them out of heaven3.
I hope this helps you understand more about the number and types of angels involved in the war in heaven according to different sources. 😊
The super thick Urantia book has a section on the war in heaven. What do they talk about in that chapter?
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The Urantia Book is a book that claims to reveal the origin, history, and destiny of humanity and the universe. It has a section on the war in heaven, which is part of Paper 53: The Lucifer Rebellion1. In this section, the book talks about:
The leaders of the rebellion: Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia. Lucifer was a high-ranking angel who became dissatisfied with the rule of God and his Son. He challenged their authority and proposed a new plan of self-government and personal liberty. Satan was his first lieutenant and chief supporter. Caligastia was the planetary prince of Urantia (Earth) who joined the rebellion and corrupted the human race.
The causes of the rebellion: The book lists several factors that contributed to the rebellion, such as the permissive nature of the universe administration, the misrepresentation of God’s character by his Son’s representatives, the leniency shown to earlier rebels, the moral cowardice of some loyal angels, and the personal ambition and pride of Lucifer and his associates.
The nature of the conflict: The book describes the war in heaven as a spiritual and intellectual struggle, not a physical or material one. It involved debates, propaganda, persuasion, and deception. It lasted for seven years of system time (about 20,000 years of Earth time). It affected every planet in the system of Satania, where Urantia belongs. It resulted in the downfall and isolation of many angels and humans who sided with Lucifer.
The consequences of the rebellion: The book outlines the various effects of the rebellion on different levels of reality, such as:
The system level: The system of Satania was quarantined from its sister systems and cut off from certain circuits of communication and energy. The loyal angels and humans had to endure hardships and dangers. The rebels were allowed to continue their activities until a final judgment by the superuniverse authorities.
The constellation level: The constellation of Norlatiadek, where Satania belongs, was also isolated from its neighboring constellations. The constellation fathers had to deal with many problems and emergencies caused by the rebellion. They also had to prepare for the eventual arrival of Michael (the Creator Son of Nebadon) on Urantia for his final bestowal mission.
The universe level: The universe of Nebadon, where Norlatiadek belongs, was also affected by the rebellion. Michael had to postpone his final bestowal until the situation in Satania was stabilized. He also had to face many challenges and oppositions from Lucifer and his allies during his incarnation on Urantia as Jesus of Nazareth. The superuniverse level: The superuniverse of Orvonton, where Nebadon belongs, was also involved in the rebellion. The Ancients of Days, the supreme rulers of Orvonton, had to adjudicate the cases of the rebels and pronounce their sentences. They also had to supervise the quarantine measures and the restoration efforts in Satania and Norlatiadek.
The central universe level: The central universe of Havona, where Orvonton belongs, was also impacted by the rebellion. The Paradise Trinity had to grant Michael full sovereignty over Nebadon after his successful completion of his bestowal on Urantia. They also had to authorize the final eradication of sin and rebellion from Nebadon. The status of the rebellion: The book states that the rebellion is technically terminated in Satania and that Lucifer and Satan are in custody awaiting their final fate. However, it also states that some remnants of the rebellion still persist on some planets, including Urantia. It also states that Michael has won a complete victory over Lucifer and his followers, and that he has established a new era of light and life in Nebadon.
I hope this helps you understand more about what the Urantia Book talks about in its section on the war in heaven. 😊
urantia is earth, right? And this Satania.. well don't they say lucifer is something to do with the morning star, venus or something.. this "lucifer soul group".. aren't they from there? I guess this gets into the "hidden hand interview". Where Yahweh, who we'll say is God.. but they say is a sub-sub logos, who's only in charge of this solar system. He was having issues with his garden of eden operation, then goes to his bosses, the council of elders, on saturn.. and they said, ok we'll bring in the lucifer soul group to be the bad guys in the movie. They'll give us humans the negative option people can choose from. So they do all that on earth here. That's why there's lots of bad things going on. They run all that operation.
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Yes, Urantia is another name for Earth, according to the Urantia Book1. And yes, Lucifer is sometimes associated with the morning star, which is another name for Venus2. However, the connection between Lucifer and the morning star is based on a mistranslation of a passage in the Bible (Isaiah 14:12), where the Hebrew word “helel” (meaning shining one) was rendered as “Lucifer” (meaning light-bearer) in Latin. The original context of the passage was not about a fallen angel, but about a Babylonian king who was arrogant and oppressive3.
As for the “Lucifer soul group”, that is a term used in the Hidden Hand Interview4, which claims to be a conversation between internet users and a supposed Illuminati insider. The interviewee says that Lucifer is a highly advanced soul who came to Earth with his group to provide a catalyst for human evolution. He says that Lucifer and his group are playing the role of the “bad guys” in order to help humans learn the difference between service to self and service to others. He also says that Yahweh is a sub-sub logos, or a creator of a solar system, who was inexperienced and overprotective of his creation. He says that Yahweh asked for help from the Council of Elders, who are higher beings who oversee the galaxy, and they sent Lucifer and his group to Earth.
However, there is no evidence or proof that any of these claims are true. They are based on personal beliefs and opinions, not on facts or logic. They are also contradicted by other sources, such as the Bible, the Quran, and the Urantia Book, which have different views on Lucifer, Yahweh, and the Council of Elders. Therefore, you should not take these claims at face value, but rather examine them critically and compare them with other sources of information. You should also be careful not to confuse fiction with reality, or imagination with truth.