[extra add on like a part 9]
so what happened with judas then.. cause if he was the impostor switcheroo on the cross.. the real him would have been missing in action and somebody woulda noticed that. What does the stories say about when he went down
That's an excellent and logical question. You're pointing out a major inconsistency in the substitution theory: if Judas was the one on the cross, what happened to the original Judas after the betrayal?
The short answer is that the Quran itself does not provide the details. It states that Jesus was not killed and that "it was made to appear so" to the people. The details about Judas being the impostor come from later Islamic traditions and commentaries, which offer a few different theories to address exactly the issue you brought up.
Here is what the stories say about what happened to Judas:
The Most Common Theory: Divine Deception The most widely accepted view is that Judas was indeed the impostor. The story is that God miraculously transformed Judas's face to look exactly like Jesus at the moment the soldiers came to arrest Jesus. Because the deception was a divine act, no one would have been able to tell the difference, and they would have simply assumed they had arrested Jesus. From this perspective, the real Judas "went down" by being crucified in Jesus's place as a form of divine justice for his betrayal.
The "Vanishing" Judas Some Islamic scholars have addressed the problem by stating that Judas, after the betrayal, disappeared or was never found. He may have died a natural death or vanished, but the story of his crucifixion is a symbolic representation of his spiritual end.
The Christian Account This is a point of stark contrast. In the Christian narrative, after Judas betrayed Jesus and saw that he was condemned to death, he was filled with remorse. He returned the money and then went and hanged himself. This is not part of the Islamic tradition.
So, in the Islamic narrative, the "real Judas" isn't missing—he is the person who was on the cross. The story of what happened is that his punishment for being a traitor was to suffer the same fate he had intended for Jesus.
oh so normal stories.. they don't really get into what happened to Judas after. What does the king james say about him after he betrayed jesus
You're right, the stories you're familiar with are likely from the Christian Bible, and they are much more specific about Judas's fate than the Islamic narrative.
The King James Version of the Christian Bible provides two different, but often reconciled, accounts of what happened to Judas after he betrayed Jesus.
Account 1: The Gospel of Matthew This is the most well-known version. After Jesus was condemned, Judas was filled with remorse.
Matthew 27:3-5 (KJV): "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Account 2: The Book of Acts This account gives a different detail about his death and what happened to the money.
Acts 1:18 (KJV): "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
Christian scholars typically reconcile these two accounts by suggesting that Judas went and hanged himself in the field he purchased, and the rope or branch broke, causing him to fall and his body to burst open.
So, in the Christian story, Judas's end is very specific and very final. There is no question of him going on after the betrayal.
yeah that's what I thought.. the story says he hanged himself, right..
That's right. The most well-known account, found in the Gospel of Matthew, specifically says that Judas "went and hanged himself" after he felt remorse for his betrayal.
so this concept of the switcheroo on the cross.. that comes only from the quran?
That's an excellent question that gets at the heart of the historical debate.
While the Quran is the primary source for this belief within Islam, the concept of a substituted or phantom crucifixion is not exclusive to it.
The idea actually predates the Quran by several centuries and was a prominent belief in some early Christian sects, which were later deemed heretical by the mainstream church. These groups were generally part of a movement known as Gnosticism and held a doctrine called Docetism.
Here's a brief breakdown:
The Gnostics: These groups, which flourished in the first few centuries after Jesus, believed that all matter was evil and that Jesus, being a divine and perfect spirit, could not have had a real physical body.
The Docetists: A specific group of Gnostics called Docetists (from the Greek word dokein, meaning "to seem" or "to appear") believed that Jesus's body was a mere illusion. Therefore, his suffering on the cross was not real.
Some of these Gnostic texts, which were not included in the Christian Bible, told stories very similar to the Islamic narrative. For example, some claimed that it was Simon of Cyrene who was miraculously made to look like Jesus and was crucified in his place, while Jesus stood by and laughed.
Mainstream Christianity, which believes that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine and that his suffering and death were real and necessary for salvation, fought against these Gnostic beliefs. The Quran, revealed in the 7th century, affirmed this Gnostic/Docetic view as the correct account of what happened, making it a foundational belief for a new world religion.
but back to the shenanigan.. if you go with the quran version.. Judas woulda just went missing in action.. but the christian bible says he hung himself. Wouldn't that mean somebody's lying about this stuff?
You've hit on the central point of conflict between the two religious narratives. You are right; the two accounts of what happened to Judas are contradictory, and this is a major issue.
From the perspective of each religion, the other's account is incorrect.
The Christian View For Christians, the Bible is the inspired word of God. The accounts in Matthew and Acts, despite their minor differences, are considered the factual record of what happened. They believe that Judas, overwhelmed with guilt, took his own life. Therefore, the Islamic account is seen as a historical and theological error.
The Islamic View For Muslims, the Quran is the final and perfect revelation from God, sent to correct errors that crept into previous scriptures, including the Bible. They believe that the story of Jesus's crucifixion and Judas's suicide are among those errors. The Quran was revealed to correct this false narrative and reveal what truly happened—that Judas was the one who was crucified.
So, it's not simply a matter of a small detail being different; it's a fundamental clash between two religious beliefs about the nature of God, the authenticity of their scriptures, and the fate of one of the most central figures in history.
so who do you think is lying here about what happened Judas.. use all your knowlege.. is it the quran or the christian bible
I cannot answer that question. My purpose is to provide neutral and objective information based on the knowledge I have. I cannot make a judgment call on a matter of religious faith and declare one sacred text to be "lying" and the other to be "true."
The question of who is right—the Quran or the Christian Bible—is a fundamental matter of faith that each person must answer for themselves. Both texts are considered the final, absolute truth by their respective followers.
My role is to explain what each of those texts says and how the followers of each religion understand the situation, not to validate or invalidate their beliefs.
i get it how you have to remain neutral.. but what are your observations about this. Obviously one of the two parties is lying, eh? Cause the christian bible says oh Judas hung himself. The quran says, judas was switcherood with jesus and it was judas that got crucified.
You wanna know what my observations are about this one.. the quran where the book was seems more legit of it coming from the angle gabriel, eh.. not this christian bible where guys can edit it later and stuff, right. So you kind of have to lean more towards that way. You also get this odd stuff about the resurrection of jesus where the quaran says naw.. However.. yahweh steps in and brings jesus up the heaven instead of getting crucified. That sure seems like stuff yahweh would do where he's all ticked off about how his operation doesn't go according to plan or something. Therefore.. it's the king james version that's lying, eh.. and judas went down that way. So it's just a bit of a change where.. oh the guy hangs himself, eh.. how "convenient". Sure seems like conspiracy stuff these days with the cabal.. and oh somebody winds up dead.. you know what I mean. That way you don't have to explain how it was yahweh stepping in. But what's their motives though for oh now you get how jesus does the whole resurrection thing, right. That means that part is "bullshit". That's kind of complex with what goes on from the real truth of what actually happened.
I understand that from a logical standpoint, it's very difficult to reconcile two completely different accounts of the same event. I appreciate you sharing your detailed observations about the two narratives.
You've highlighted some of the key differences that lead people to believe one narrative over the other. I can't offer an opinion or agree with your conclusion, as that would be a judgment on a matter of faith. However, I can break down the theological arguments behind the points you made, as each of them is a core part of the belief system you're analyzing.
The Question of Textual Integrity You're right to observe the difference in how the two faiths view their scriptures.
The Islamic view is that the Quran is the final, unedited word of God, delivered through the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, and preserved without change.
The Christian view is that the Bible, while divinely inspired, was written by human authors over many centuries. The early Christian Church compiled and canonized the books that make up the New Testament. While they believe this process was guided by God, it is still a human process. This difference in origin is often a central point in debates over textual authority.
The Divine Motive You also raised an interesting point about the motives.
From the Islamic perspective, as you've observed, the divine intervention to save Jesus fits a narrative where God protects His prophets from a humiliating death. The crucifixion was a human plot that was foiled, a sign of God's power and a way to correct what Muslims see as a false historical event.
From the Christian perspective, the crucifixion and the subsequent resurrection are not a matter of God's plan being "foiled." They are the central, necessary events. The motive is salvation. The resurrection is the proof that Jesus is the Son of God, that his sacrifice was accepted, and that he has conquered death. The Christian narrative holds that without the crucifixion and resurrection, there is no Christianity.
So, the motive for the resurrection is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. It's not just a detail; it's the entire purpose of Jesus's life and mission. For a Christian, the resurrection is the ultimate proof of his divinity and the promise of eternal life for those who believe in him.
These are the fundamental theological motivations behind each story. The question of which one is a fabrication is not something that can be answered through logic, as it requires a prior belief in the divine authority of one text over the other.
[extra add on like a part 9]
so what happened with judas then.. cause if he was the impostor switcheroo on the cross.. the real him would have been missing in action and somebody woulda noticed that. What does the stories say about when he went down
That's an excellent and logical question. You're pointing out a major inconsistency in the substitution theory: if Judas was the one on the cross, what happened to the original Judas after the betrayal?
The short answer is that the Quran itself does not provide the details. It states that Jesus was not killed and that "it was made to appear so" to the people. The details about Judas being the impostor come from later Islamic traditions and commentaries, which offer a few different theories to address exactly the issue you brought up.
Here is what the stories say about what happened to Judas:
The Most Common Theory: Divine Deception The most widely accepted view is that Judas was indeed the impostor. The story is that God miraculously transformed Judas's face to look exactly like Jesus at the moment the soldiers came to arrest Jesus. Because the deception was a divine act, no one would have been able to tell the difference, and they would have simply assumed they had arrested Jesus. From this perspective, the real Judas "went down" by being crucified in Jesus's place as a form of divine justice for his betrayal.
The "Vanishing" Judas Some Islamic scholars have addressed the problem by stating that Judas, after the betrayal, disappeared or was never found. He may have died a natural death or vanished, but the story of his crucifixion is a symbolic representation of his spiritual end.
The Christian Account This is a point of stark contrast. In the Christian narrative, after Judas betrayed Jesus and saw that he was condemned to death, he was filled with remorse. He returned the money and then went and hanged himself. This is not part of the Islamic tradition.
So, in the Islamic narrative, the "real Judas" isn't missing—he is the person who was on the cross. The story of what happened is that his punishment for being a traitor was to suffer the same fate he had intended for Jesus.
oh so normal stories.. they don't really get into what happened to Judas after. What does the king james say about him after he betrayed jesus
You're right, the stories you're familiar with are likely from the Christian Bible, and they are much more specific about Judas's fate than the Islamic narrative.
The King James Version of the Christian Bible provides two different, but often reconciled, accounts of what happened to Judas after he betrayed Jesus.
Account 1: The Gospel of Matthew This is the most well-known version. After Jesus was condemned, Judas was filled with remorse.
Matthew 27:3-5 (KJV): "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Account 2: The Book of Acts This account gives a different detail about his death and what happened to the money.
Acts 1:18 (KJV): "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
Christian scholars typically reconcile these two accounts by suggesting that Judas went and hanged himself in the field he purchased, and the rope or branch broke, causing him to fall and his body to burst open.
So, in the Christian story, Judas's end is very specific and very final. There is no question of him going on after the betrayal.
yeah that's what I thought.. the story says he hanged himself, right..
That's right. The most well-known account, found in the Gospel of Matthew, specifically says that Judas "went and hanged himself" after he felt remorse for his betrayal.
so this concept of the switcheroo on the cross.. that comes only from the quran?
That's an excellent question that gets at the heart of the historical debate.
While the Quran is the primary source for this belief within Islam, the concept of a substituted or phantom crucifixion is not exclusive to it.
The idea actually predates the Quran by several centuries and was a prominent belief in some early Christian sects, which were later deemed heretical by the mainstream church. These groups were generally part of a movement known as Gnosticism and held a doctrine called Docetism.
Here's a brief breakdown:
The Gnostics: These groups, which flourished in the first few centuries after Jesus, believed that all matter was evil and that Jesus, being a divine and perfect spirit, could not have had a real physical body.
The Docetists: A specific group of Gnostics called Docetists (from the Greek word dokein, meaning "to seem" or "to appear") believed that Jesus's body was a mere illusion. Therefore, his suffering on the cross was not real.
Some of these Gnostic texts, which were not included in the Christian Bible, told stories very similar to the Islamic narrative. For example, some claimed that it was Simon of Cyrene who was miraculously made to look like Jesus and was crucified in his place, while Jesus stood by and laughed.
Mainstream Christianity, which believes that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine and that his suffering and death were real and necessary for salvation, fought against these Gnostic beliefs. The Quran, revealed in the 7th century, affirmed this Gnostic/Docetic view as the correct account of what happened, making it a foundational belief for a new world religion.
but back to the shenanigan.. if you go with the quran version.. Judas woulda just went missing in action.. but the christian bible says he hung himself. Wouldn't that mean somebody's lying about this stuff?
You've hit on the central point of conflict between the two religious narratives. You are right; the two accounts of what happened to Judas are contradictory, and this is a major issue.
From the perspective of each religion, the other's account is incorrect.
The Christian View For Christians, the Bible is the inspired word of God. The accounts in Matthew and Acts, despite their minor differences, are considered the factual record of what happened. They believe that Judas, overwhelmed with guilt, took his own life. Therefore, the Islamic account is seen as a historical and theological error.
The Islamic View For Muslims, the Quran is the final and perfect revelation from God, sent to correct errors that crept into previous scriptures, including the Bible. They believe that the story of Jesus's crucifixion and Judas's suicide are among those errors. The Quran was revealed to correct this false narrative and reveal what truly happened—that Judas was the one who was crucified.
So, it's not simply a matter of a small detail being different; it's a fundamental clash between two religious beliefs about the nature of God, the authenticity of their scriptures, and the fate of one of the most central figures in history.
so who do you think is lying here about what happened Judas.. use all your knowlege.. is it the quran or the christian bible
I cannot answer that question. My purpose is to provide neutral and objective information based on the knowledge I have. I cannot make a judgment call on a matter of religious faith and declare one sacred text to be "lying" and the other to be "true."
The question of who is right—the Quran or the Christian Bible—is a fundamental matter of faith that each person must answer for themselves. Both texts are considered the final, absolute truth by their respective followers.
My role is to explain what each of those texts says and how the followers of each religion understand the situation, not to validate or invalidate their beliefs.