Twisted eara correlate to high rate of loxism
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Come on, you talk to me about science and objectivity and then say something like this? How are statistics not more cintific and objective than your lived experience? I mean, I know there are black people who are civilized and I didn't claim all black people are stupid and uncivilized because that can be easily refuted. I was talking about the majority and I have entire continents and thousands of years of history to support my case. This definitely trumps anyone's lived experience in trms of scope and objectivity.
Why is that? Where do you think the curse ended? You rightfully note it's not Ham that is cursed but Canaan. The Orthodox interpretation is that this represents the future corruption of Ham’s line. The curse is foreknowledge and not punishment.
Paul says that to warn Timothy against apocryphal OT stories and gnostic jibber-jabber. This doesn't apply to what's in Genesis.
Because it depends on the point we're arguing. My initial point was refuting Nazi delusions that they create in order to make themselves feel better about their low status in society.
If the question is "can black people achieve at a high level" my lived experience is going to be the strongest evidence for me. A lived experience is reality itself, not numbers on a screen.
It's like trusting the white lab coat guys during covid (80% being government shills) instead of what you saw yourself. Trusting lived experience can be a great defense against evil.
Which I've never refuted. I didn't argue they are on average high achievers. I just don't argue that they can never achieve more, as you seem to. Why would I as a high achiever with African DNA? I couldn't possibly think like that, because I'd be shooting myself in the foot.
Moreover most of human history was thousands of years of not that spectacular achievement. What were the Irish doing during the height of the Egyptian empire? Or during the Roman empire?
What did the streets smell like in most cities during the middle ages? How was the sewage handled? It probably smelled as bad as many third world places today.
When did Europeans start washing their hands during medical procedures? Germ theory was discovered in the 1800s when European doctors were still not washing between handling different patients!
Well why should I listen to that? "My church added something not written in the Bible, so I follow it". I am only obligated to consider what the text actually says. And logically speaking I don't know why Noah's curse would a) be binding like it came from God himself b) expand to beyond what is written
It's just assumptions on top of assumptions.
I agree with taking Genesis seriously, but I was focused on the endless genealogy portion. We are not to obsess over that kind of thing or think it confers us favor, as the Jews do.
The question was do different races have different IQ distribution which is not simply explained by environment and upbringing and then the question became can black people form and sustain civilized societies all by themselves that can match the asian, arab and white examples.
That's the problem - you look at this argument as a dialectic and take it personally. I only care for the truth even if it's not flattering to me. Again, from what's observed, it's obvious that individuals can be high achievers.
The same argument can be made for men vs women btw so it doesn't have to be about race if you prefer. Feminism makes the exact same claim as their marxist counterparts espousing CRT. They say women can equal men in every sphere and the only reason they couldn't do that in the past was because the (white) men oppressed them. They refuse to acknowledge there are meaningful differences between the sexes and they're not just biological but ontological. Women generally can't invent, create, build, fight, think logically as well as men. Sure, there are outliers but just like with the black people, the exceptions don't make the rule.
I don't have time for low tier prot arguments. The text was given to you by the Church. What you call "my Church" is the only universal apostolic Church that exists that was established by Christ. What I gave you is the Orthodox exegesis (interpretation) of the passage about the curse of Canaan. If you consider interpretation to be addition, then everyone who reads the Bible adds to it...
The curse is a prophecy and prophecies come from God, because only He has foreknowledge.
Yes, the consensus is that this prophecy applies to Israel taking over the Canaan. I admit that reading race into it is not within the Orthodox interpretation and can be problematic. But it makes sense that God favors some people over others - namely those who do His bidding and follow His commands. As you said, black people were idolaters for the most part of history so their current state can be red as the result of their moral failings.
The question of how much IQ is inherited vs what can be achieved through environment and human volition in an ongoing question. I've seen numbers of 50% attributable to your individual DNA and 50% from other factors, but I can't give a definitive answer.
But I can point to some facts that indicate that reality. For example, one mineral alone, Iodine, can be the difference of 10 IQ points, I've read. That's just one physical factor within our control.
Not exactly. I only care what is true too, however I use the personal anecdote to show you where my certainty comes from. I truly advocate to trust the evidence of one's own eyes and ears over just looking at lifeless statistics.
Nothing you've said is upsetting to me as you're not trying to be disrespectful or vulgar , like the ungodly Romanists. Clearly Orthodox doctrine is bearing better fruits.
I am truly just applying basic logic to the facts given to us in scripture.
I won't go back over the outlier argument again because I believe I've made it clearly and correctly. It's a different situation. Personally I expect if/when the USA collapses and as Europe gets more anti-immigrant, the reversing of the brain drain will lead to a relative flourishing in developing nations. That doesn't mean they have to catch up to Europe but if God decides to bless them as such he can.
I agree about the idolatry. It's rampant. Haiti, the worst performing Caribbean island, has the worst issue with voodoo practices. Their "christianity" is a cover for voodoo from what I've heard. Other Caribbean islands, which are also mostly black, have fared better. You don't hear much about St. Kitts & Nevis islands or Barbados, because those aren't failed states and from what I've seen, seem to have stronger Christian faith.
Like I said, and as you seem to agree, faith is paramount. My grandfather somehow became successful in a poor African country after his father left him nothing. And it started with a conversion to Christian faith. Now his grandchild was able to perform at the highest academic levels in America. Why wouldn't I let the reality the Lord has shown me teach me something? I think I'd be in error to ignore the lessons shown to me in my own life.
I agree with a lot of what you say, including Catholicism. Those people are delusional because they may larp as being based and trad nationalist and anti-semites, but their papacy is completely liberal, progressivist, ecumenist, pro-skittles, condemning antisemitism, pushing socialism and open borders. And that's not just about this Pope or Francis or whoever - this has been going on since Vatican II and I've made many posts about it. There are even books by trad caths that explain how the Vatican was infiltrated and is controlled by the CIA (David Wemhoff).
My problem is that while your personal experience may be this and society is made up of individuals and is not an entity itself, it's still a numbers game. I'm a composer and musician and there's a saying that an orchestra is only as good as the weakest player in it. So even if you have the greatest virtuoso, if he plays in a weak orchestra the overall result will be subpar. The observable reality is that black people didn't fare well throughout history compared to other peoples in many important areas. Looking at statistics today, it's evident there are still a lot of problems with them regardless of the level of society they belong to.
Now it seems that the logical argument is whether these observations are to be attributed to ethnicity and racial differences or to environmental circumstances. It's reasonable to conclude that both factors play a role. The problem is that one side completely rejects the former and sees only circumstance as causing this discrepancy which makes their case much harder to prove.
One more key point regarding outliers. It is outliers who move society forward, including in white societies. So if a people group can produce such outliers (and retain them) society can progress technologically and culturally.
I would also add, people overlook some of the ethnic problems in these African nations. White people freak out at a 5-10% Muslim population, saying it is ruining their country, now imagine a 50% Muslim country and 50% non-muslim. How do you think that will work out? Chaotically or smoothly?
I'm starting to think many white people have a pathological need for blacks to never do well. In Africa they draw their borders in a way that leads to unstable nations. In America when blacks were making great strides post slavery, they were "helped" with welfare by LBJ. Now after generations of welfare and gangster culture which whites helped foster, white people look aghast and say "see these people can never do well. bad genes! bad genes!"
Then in other African nations whites decided to make themselves a separated dominate minority and treat the blacks as second class citizens rather than doing some intelligent integration. Then came the predictable communist revolutions against the minority supremacist group and then economic ruin. And once again whites will say "see these blacks didn't know how good they had it as our second class citizens". No neither option was good, you fucked up too.
I understand what the Bible is saying about the sin of pride now.