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posted ago by throwaway_27_ ago by throwaway_27_ +44 / -17

I noticed some folks in c/Conspiracies/p/15IXWXnIo6 arguing about the shape of the Earth. It doesn't look to be in bad faith, so I create this post for anyone interested.

Personally, looking at the Sun (ouch) and the Moon is enough for me.

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nc777 4 points ago +5 / -1

I'm agnostic on the subject, but see some good (and bad) arguments on both sides. (This is just how I view the different arguments, I could be missing something.)

  1. Water is flat argument is flawed by droplet of water, water meniscus surface tension would hold water together in a round shape as it does in free fall state. There is video of water in fake 'space' (which is probably filmed in a free fall location showing large balls of water floating and held together. those videos don't appear to be cgi and also work with water and know it's surface tension is a strong force. - no point awarded to firmament earth.

  2. Laser measurement of large lakes or Suez Canal showing the expected drop in height due to curvature does not exist, -point goes to firmament earth.

  3. Eclipse w/ Sun and Moon the same size give low probability of natural occurrence of 2 objects at dramatically unequal distances being the exact same size (93 million miles and 239000 miles, sun and moon respectively). -point goes to firmament earth but a bit more circumstantial or probabilistic.

  4. Idea that atmosphere can't exist in vacuum of space and that this disproves ball earth - atmospheric pressure drops w/ elevation which can be observed at high elevations with either pressure gauge or just breathing. for example 4000m in altitude is a loss of ~40% pressure. at some point the pressure approaches zero. -no point awarded to firmament earth.

  5. Observation of moon showing plane of focus closer than expected for 239000 mile distance - point firmament earth.

  6. In southern hemisphere the moon rises in the sky 'upside down' from the orientation that it is observed in the northern hemisphere (i've witnessed this in australia). this did not occur in europe, north america, asia (which i've also witnessed). i don't see how this rotation and orientation is explained on the firmament earth model.

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VicariousJambi 4 points ago +5 / -1

Water is flat argument is flawed by droplet of water, water meniscus surface tension would hold water together in a round shape as it does in free fall state.

This is obvious misinterpretation of whats meant by "water is flat" man, come on.

atmospheric pressure drops w/ elevation which can be observed at high elevations with either pressure gauge or just breathing. for example 4000m in altitude is a loss of ~40% pressure. at some point the pressure approaches zero

This exactly makes sense with the flat earth model and density.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbCGrG0c2gI

What doesnt make sense is that the atmosphere is there at all, with no barrier between it and a vacuum.

In southern hemisphere the moon rises in the sky 'upside down' from the orientation that it is observed in the northern hemisphere (i've witnessed this in australia). this did not occur in europe, north america, asia (which i've also witnessed). i don't see how this rotation and orientation is explained on the firmament earth model.

I'm not 100% sure what you're exactly talking about here, but maybe this video can explain some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-w8acuxF6w

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nc777 1 point ago +2 / -1

I look at photos of curved water all the time at work. It's called a meniscus. it can curve in a lot of different directions depending on surface tension factors. I think there are stronger arguments for the firmament earth case.


Thanks for the atmosphere video, i'll check it out. Atmosphere could have variable pressure w/ altitude in the firmament model, but some claim the ball mode is invalid because it is a gas without a container next to a basically infinite vacuum.


For the moon thing, have you ever looked up and saw the 'face' on the moon or 'man on the moon'? When it rises in the southern hemisphere it comes up upsidedown to how it is seen in the northern hemisphere. it's actually kinda freaky if you're not expecting it. constellations are upsidedown too. i've seen it irl. happened in australia but not south asia or europe or north america. https://astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2014/02/a-matter-of-perspective (only sharing the link for the phenomena which can be found elsewhere not necessarily the explanation.)

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VicariousJambi 3 points ago +3 / -0

surface tension factors

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

and when surface tension is a negligible factor in the “flatness” of something, say, anything larger than a test tube, then it always appears flat. You wouldn’t say the surface of a swimming pool has any curve to it.

some claim the ball mode is invalid because it is a gas without a container next to a basically infinite vacuum.

That’s exactly what i’m saying. Gravity is a force so weak that bugs can go against it, but so strong it can hold air in against an infinite vacuum? Really?

And i think that last one i linked is the correct video to explain the differences in perception between the hemispheres.

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Ausernamegoeshere 1 point ago +1 / -0

What holds a bug to flat earth?

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Afks 2 points ago +3 / -1

Sit on one side of your room and look up at the light in the ceiling

Then move to the opposite side of the room and look up at the same ceiling light

It’s upside down, same as the moon when comparing n and s hemispheres

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deleted 3 points ago +4 / -1
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jack445566778899 0 points ago +1 / -1

If the earth is flat. That means there is a huge cover up, right?

Nope!

Humanity requires no “cover up” in order to be stupid and wrong as it historically always is!

So that means some of the flat earth arguments youve seen are strawmen.

Most of them, yes (though not technically “strawmen”, but false positions you are intended to repeat so that you may be easily discredited and drive others away from the subject) . The flat earth psyop is very real and heavily advertised (i.e. funded).

All real flat earth arguments are proofs.

Proofs don’t really exist outside of mathematics. The only “proof” (a subjective term) of the shape of any physical object (the earth included) is rigorous and repeated measurement of that object! “Flat earth arguments” can’t be proofs, for the same reason that the “globe earth arguments” can’t be. Arguments can never be proofs! Right?

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deleted 3 points ago +4 / -1
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jack445566778899 0 points ago +1 / -1

proofs dont exist outside of mathematics...oh jez.

Not objectively. Proof is very personal/subjective! That’s all I meant.

proof can be defined lots of ways, but in the end, it means undeniable fact

Right, that is kind of my point. There is no such thing as an undeniable fact, or a fact that does not deserve/warrant doubt/scrutiny/skepticism. Facts are merely claims declared as true by our authorities. They are arbitrary, and generally speaking - incorrect. It is merely a question of how long we must wait until we recognize why. It’s called “the half life of facts” and is a very important concept to become familiar and comfortable with. Doubt is the mother/driver of knowledge and science.

Beyond that, people are a subjective/mythological/religious/superstitious lot. It is painfully trivial to deny any fact - true or not - at a whim. This is one of the reasons that we must be ever vigilant to identify and excise belief (aka bias) within us, including the belief that what we think we know is inerrant/infallible. We must do this to have even the slim chance of objective study of reality and to know.

because you are still thinking that globe earth could be possible, and its not as i have shown in our discussion

Not me personally, no - but many/most are! Helping them to recognize why the globe model we are taught to accept is incorrect and how we can demonstrate that is very important and involves a LOT of discussion (typically). Still, we cannot force them - they must want to learn and choose to do so for themselves. No discussion can provide proof to another (even when/just because it serves as proof for you)

You think all flat earth content is psyop because earth is not flat,

I don’t feel that way at all! What have I said that made you think that?

and that makes you blind to the real flat earth content and getting it confused with the funded flat earth psyop designed to throw people off.

There is precious little “real flat earth content” but it does exist out there - and is typically individuals conducting their own independent research (no mass exposure via youtube or otherwise) for their own knowledge/edification. The rule of thumb is - if they are popular / well known / profitable, they are agents and/or useful idiots of the psyop. The psyop doesn’t just throw people off, it drives them away from earnest research and discussion thereof as well as encourages them to swallow and repeat stupid and clearly untrue things to further discredit the valuable endeavor/subject.

because its too time consuming

It is very time consuming, but it is of benefit for them as well as us! It helps to refine our own ideas/knowledge and to make it more succinct. It is an invaluable exercise for all involved. But it does take significant time. Time well spent in my view!

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brahbruh 1 point ago +2 / -1

Interesting, I've never heard this plane of focus of the moon argument - do you have a link that explains that in more detail?

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jack445566778899 -1 points ago +1 / -2

Please join us on the community I created to further evaluate and discuss your answers if you are interested!